[Jax08]

The AKC disqualifies any white dogs in their competitions. The USCA strictly condemns dogs who are any of these colors and states that clearly in their standard.

"Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog must be disqualified." AKC breed standard

http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf

Take a look at the standard for the USCA too, and you'll see the same thing. No Pandas, no livers, no blues, no anything but the norm.

We are all well aware that these colors are not in the standard. Having a color that is not in standard does not mean the dogs can not be registered in the U.S. by the AKC (which is ONLY a registry).

The USCA standard is the SV standard. The SV is the mother club for all other German Shepherd clubs. The words "strictly condemns" is a bit over the top. The USCA is a GSD sport club which follows the SV standards. The USCA does not disallow any dog from competing in their trials regardless of breed or color with the exception of the USCA Nationals which can only be German Shepherds.. If I had a liver, I could trial that dog and take him to nationals if he had the ability. Personally, I think the blues and livers are gorgeous. Especially the solid blues.

The white German Shepherds are called Berger Blanc Suisse in Switzerland and are their own breed. Some people like them and that's fine. To each their own. I think there are more important things to worry about than whether the dog is white or not. Like DM, bloat, HD, ED, etc. We have some major health issues prevalent in our breed that we should be more concerned about.

 

[dogma13]

It's ok to have a personal preference regarding colors,coat types,show line,working line,etc.Let's try to be sensitive to others with preferences different from our own.It's offensive to other members,though I trust that wasn't your intention.

 

[Kathrynil]

QUOTE="dogma13, post: 9217538, member: 236897"]
It's ok to have a personal preference regarding colors,coat types,show line,working line,etc.Let's try to be sensitive to others with preferences different from our own.It's offensive to other members,though I trust that wasn't your intention.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm sorry if I'm not being sensitive. That was not my intention in the least.

Whew. I think I'm out of argument. I didn't know that white shepherds were their own breed! that's pretty cool.

@Jax08: In the USCA you can, not the AKC. They disqualify for white. The AKC can register them, but they may not show and must register as "other".

Wow, what a rabbit trail!! I don't think we're even talking about pandas anymore!

 

[Kathrynil]

That was my first halfway decent, semi-reasonable, not extremely negative argument! Isn't that great? (I'm just joking, but actually, it probably is)

 

[Jax08]

I never said they could show in the AKC ring. I wouldn't know if they could or not since I don't participate in AKC conformation. They can however participate in any performance venue other than conformation. Herding, agility, nosework, etc. They are not allowed to enter an SV show either but the could do IGP if they chose. I guess if your only focus is conformation then you wouldn't want a dog that can't enter those venues. I do believe they can show in UKC though. Many people with all breeds are switching to UKC because it doesn't have the politics involved and they are judging the dogs, not how important the owner is.

 

[Kathrynil]

And you won it, Jax08.

I was talking about the AKC, not the SV or UKC.

 

[Jax08]

I didn't know it was a contest. I thought you wanted information.

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

Temple Grandin in her many works often refers to research that demonstrates that black leather and mouths in animals has been proven to be linked not only to a physical hardiness but to mental and emotional stability over that of comparable animals of washed out colors with extreme examples being albinos as being the weakest.

If memory serves me correctly, white GSDs weren't always the red headed step children with the AKC and breed club as long as the leather was black. DQ would come later but I never heard as to why.

 

[Whiteshepherds]

In the USCA you can, not the AKC. They disqualify for white. The AKC can register them, but they may not show and must register as "other".

Not sure what you mean when you say the AKC can register them and must register as other? Register as other what?

 

[Sunsilver]

The main reason I think Pandas shouldn't be bred is because they can't breed true. The Panda gene is a dominant gene. There are NO double Pandas (Pandas with 2 genes for the colouration) Apparently double Panda is a LETHAL gene combination.

Yeah, what are the ethics of breeding for a lethal gene? Hmm. The blue merle gene is very harmful or lethal in its double form too, but many breeds have merle dogs.

Well, to each his/her own. The story of Frankie and her offspring is certainly a very interesting study in genetics!

 

[Kyrielle]

The main reason I think Pandas shouldn't be bred is because they can't breed true. The Panda gene is a dominant gene. There are NO double Pandas (Pandas with 2 genes for the colouration) Apparently double Panda is a LETHAL gene combination.

Yeah, what are the ethics of breeding for a lethal gene? Hmm. The blue merle gene is very harmful or lethal in its double form too, but many breeds have merle dogs.

Well, to each his/her own. The story of Frankie and her offspring is certainly a very interesting study in genetics!

I think Panda Shepherds can only be bred with permission from the original breeder who discovered the gene. This is due to genetic studies taking place at UC Davis. The most recent study was conducted in 2016.

I don't think it'll become common practice. The breeder from which we got our recent addition is breeding a Panda Shepherd with her various females. The breedings appear to be experimental in nature. Ex: What happens with a Panda/White line and a Black shepherd line? What happens with a Panda/White line and a Black & Tan/White line?

Whether that's ethical or not, advances in a breed or creations of new breeds cannot occur without such experimentation. After all, the GSD wouldn't exist if experimentation in shepherd-dog combinations had not occurred.

 

[Sunsilver]

Kyrielle, I hate to disillusion you, and it would be really nice if what you said about carefully controlled breeding is true, but it ain't. As with all unusual GSD colours, Pandas are being bred and marketed by unscrupulous breeders who are just in it for the money. Fortunately, the novelty of the Panda colour seems to have worn off a bit, and I don't see as many ads for them as I used to.

Another trend I've seen lately that really concerns me is pictures of really cute dwarf German shepherds being posted on Facebook. Of course everyone oohs and ahhs, and says "OOOh, how CUTE, I want one!" without having a clue that this is a serious genetic problem, and most dwarfs have very sparse coats as well as other serious physical problems and suffer all of their lives due to their condition.

Fortunately, dwarfism causes such serious physical problems that I doubt deliberately breeding for dwarfs will ever become a thing, but with people being so very greed, you just never know...

 

[Kathrynil]

@ Sunsilver:
So true. That is exactly what is happening.

@ Jax08: I wasn't making it a contest! I was just trying to make the atmosphere a little more light-hearted, if you will. I did want more info, and now I got it. Now I have a reason behind my opinion. Now I know where the AKC gets their standard. Now I know a lot more. Thank you for giving me that information, and in the process I learned a lot.
I was just trying to have a little fun and slow down the argument, which I thought was getting a little hype. (read dogma13s post) I was hoping for a less negative response to my joking.

[B]@Whiteshepherds[/B]: The breeder or person registering has to write down:"other" in the color section. I believe (I'm saying "believe" because I don't know how they format their registration sheets) that there is like a list of the colors, and they don't include panda or the whites. Let me specify that I said "believe" because I've never seen one. I've just read that that is what they do. They don't take "panda" as an answer for color. I see you like white shepherds so I will not say anything more about white dogs or I might offend you, and I don't want to do that at all. If I have, I'm very sorry. I am not being very sensitive. I should have read your profile title before I said all that stuff about white dogs.

 

[Jax08]

@Kathrynil - I think you would enjoy and benefit from going to a club of some sort. Whether it's AKC or an IGP club. You are like a sponge. Clubs love young people who want to learn.

 

[Whiteshepherds]

[B]@Whiteshepherds[/B]: The breeder or person registering has to write down:"other" in the color section. I believe (I'm saying "believe" because I don't know how they format their registration sheets) that there is like a list of the colors, and they don't include panda or the whites. Let me specify that I said "believe" because I've never seen one. I've just read that that is what they do. They don't take "panda" as an answer for color. I see you like white shepherds so I will not say anything more about white dogs or I might offend you, and I don't want to do that at all. If I have, I'm very sorry. I am not being very sensitive. I should have read your profile title before I said all that stuff about white dogs.

Haven't been offended at all, no worries.

What you read about how whites are registered is incorrect. GSD's with white coats are registered just like any other GSD in the AKC. You write in a color where the form says "Color______" (AKC registration forms are online, you can look at them if you're really interested.)

To the best of my knowledge, the reason they don't accept "panda" as a color is because it's a pattern description, not a color. It's the same reason you couldn't put saddle back as a color, it would be listed as black/tan, black/red etc.

 

[Kathrynil]

@Whiteshepherds: That makes sense. I wonder what I heard then? Who knows; I hear a lot of things.

@Jax08: I like being likened unto a sponge. That's a very interesting way to put it. I will definitely look around. I've always wanted to get into a club and even compete with Kias when he gets older.
PS. You aren't angry with me are you? I assure you I wasn't trying to make this a contest. I was just trying to slow it down a but I may have done it the wrong way.

 

[Jax08]

PS. You aren't angry with me are you? I assure you I wasn't trying to make this a contest. I was just trying to slow it down a but I may have done it the wrong way.

lol I"m not angry. Read your PM's. I sent you info. There are facebook IPO pages as well if you are interested. People can get a bit uptight there so have a thick skin.

 

[Kathrynil]

Just did. Thanks a lot. I can't wait to see if I can find a club I can make. Question: Do you have to be actively doing shutzhund to get into a club, or is it a place where you can come and learn how to do the shutzhund training? I have know Idea how I'm going to get Kias into the obedience stuff on my own.

 

[Kathrynil]

Don't do facebook, and i probably won't ever really gwt onto it, but I can email and stuff, so I'll contact anyone through email if I find something.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

ucdavis panda posterdog somewhat resembles "german shepherds 1880" pictured on pages 116 117 118, so I don't know if "new mutation" is necessarily accurate? come to think of it nores kinda looked like a tri-color? maybe? Lots of population isolation per type so east x west x highline x akc could, theoretically, throwback some very old time stuff via common ancestry. According to wiki this was the sire and this was the dam. Seems odd nobody bothered to publish a foto of such an amazing dam, but I can't find one anywhere?