[Sunflowers]

Thank you for the opportunity sunflowers. I will explain myself for the last time about my feelings for the breed. I love gsd's . But if no one ever bred them? Where would I be, what would. I do? I would be just fine. Probably rescuing some other breed or any other mix-mutt. And I would most likely be on a forum for this breeds or mixes. So? I love german shepherds, but the world would still go round if they ep ever existed. I'm not for breeding them , but all for rescuing, though I will say breeding dogs is legal in this country! Just like carrying firearms, eating animals, freedom of speech. Etc... Many other topics. While some people may not agree with certain laws in the country, if they are legal there is not a darn thing we can do about it until laws change. So will there be breeders? Heck yea! There are some breeders who care about the dog or what they are doing. There are some breeders that don't give a lick and just want to make money. Both are legal. I have more respect for someone who is responsibly breeding, but for me, if responsible breeders and irresponsible breeders of gsd never existed and there were no gsd's I would be just dandy, and find some other cause to help with. The end. Hope that answers your Q?

I have to say, this is the most perplexing thing I have ever read on the German Shepherd forum.

I can't imagine a world without German Shepherds. To me, they represent the finest of what human beings can do, if they set their minds to it.

I waited 25 years to get one, am honored to own one, and consider myself lucky and blessed to have finally been able to have one in my life.

 

[GatorDog]

This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!

You're the one who brought up whether a dog "wants" to be bred or not. And everyone else pointed out that biologically, if she's still going into heat, then she's breedable. And as I already pointed out once before, if you've ever seen a bitch in standing heat, I highly doubt that she's being "forced" to do anything.

 

[Lilie]

qb...do you really feel that someone with much, if any, experience would not only ask if it's "okay" to breed a 8 year old bitch, but also if they should "take her to the vet" to have a health check first????? do you know that this poster does indeed have any experience whatsoever?

Sometimes I think people post questions like that just so they can advertise that they are going to have a litter of puppies in the near future (or on the ground already). I've no doubt someone will IM them, "hey, where you located? I'm looking for a puppy". It's the internet, anything is possible.

 

[Sunflowers]

Sometimes I think people post questions like that just so they can advertise that they are going to have a litter of puppies in the near future (or on the ground already). I've no doubt someone will IM them, "hey, where you located? I'm looking for a puppy". It's the internet, anything is possible.

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Nigel]

Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat.

You seem to know a lot about how this dog feels without actually meeting her.

You're the one who brought up whether a dog "wants" to be bred or not. And everyone else pointed out that biologically, if she's still going into heat, then she's breedable. And as I already pointed out once before, if you've ever seen a bitch in standing heat, I highly doubt that she's being "forced" to do anything.

This is where she got that idea and posed her question.

 

[martemchik]

Alright, for all you geniuses out there.

First, dogs aren’t rational creatures. Neither is any other organism in the world except for humans. Humans are the only animals that make the RATIONAL decision not to have offspring when they are biologically ready and capable to do so. All other creatures, will have offspring when they can have offspring.

Second, a when a female dog’s body goes into heat. It is nature telling it to have puppies. The dog’s body and hormones are making the decision for the dog. Remember, it’s not a rational being, it follows what nature and biology says it should. Anyone that thinks any of a dog’s decisions are based on rational thought…needs to rethink some things about their own life. Every organism in the world is like this, if their bodies, or the environment tells them it’s not a good time to have offspring…they WILL NOT go into heat. If you don’t believe that this is the organism “making a choice,” there’s really nothing else left to be said.

Third, the only unnatural thing that occurs in regards to dogs breeding, is what Selzer pointed out…humans control when, if, and to what a dog is bred to. The PREVENTION of a litter is the unnatural thing. In the wild, a dog would be bred each time she goes into heat. More than likely, it wouldn’t go into heat more than once a year. The reason dog’s do it more frequently is that HUMANS remove their puppies from them and take care of the puppies for them. In the wild, a dog would still have to help raise the puppies past 8 weeks and more than likely wouldn’t come into heat as often as the hormones from breast feeding the puppies and then still having to take care of them would prevent a natural heat cycle from occurring in the way we see it in domesticated dogs today.

The statements “Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old” and “after carrying and whelping their puppies had the unmistakable look on their faces saying, oh, please, NOT THIS AGAIN” are completely ridiculous and HUMANIZING. You’re using human logic, not dog logic. The second statement…if you had no idea the dog had just had a litter, you’d probably see the same face and think the dog was just sad, or tired, you wouldn’t have a reason in your own head to understand WHY the dog looks like it does. You, as a human, have RATIONALIZED the dog’s facial expression and have connected the litter to the facial expression the dog is exhibiting. This is a completely normal HUMAN thing to do, we love to imprint our emotions on animals, so it seems natural, but yet is the craziest thing we probably do.

 

[GatorDog]

This is where she got that idea and posed her question.

Barbie posted her rant before Martemchik's response.

And theoretically, the only reason a bitch goes into heat is to be bred. It's not like they copulate for pleasure. Their only purpose for going into heat is for reproduction. Its us, as humans, who get to decide when its appropriate or not.

 

[Nigel]

Barbie posted her rant before Martemchik's response.

And theoretically, the only reason a bitch goes into heat is to be bred. It's not like they copulate for pleasure. Their only purpose for going into heat is for reproduction. Its us, as humans, who get to decide when its appropriate or not.

I think most people knew what he was implying, it was just worded poorly and could be easily misconstrued.

 

[martemchik]

It's really surprising to me that a male (me) has to explain to females how their own reproduction works. The fact that women are shocked by the news that their bodies will tell them when they can and can't have children is pretty disturbing to me.

Is it really news that even for home sapiens their bodies will not go through normal ovulation cycles (heat) if they are not healthy enough to take care of a developing fetus? Do you really think that other species are any different? You guys know we share the majority of our DNA with all creatures on this planet right?

 

[Lilie]

Second, a when a female dog’s body goes into heat. It is nature telling it to have puppies. The dog’s body and hormones are making the decision for the dog. Remember, it’s not a rational being, it follows what nature and biology says it should. Anyone that thinks any of a dog’s decisions are based on rational thought…needs to rethink some things about their own life. Every organism in the world is like this, if their bodies, or the environment tells them it’s not a good time to have offspring…they WILL NOT go into heat. If you don’t believe that this is the organism “making a choice,” there’s really nothing else left to be said.

Kinda makes you want to ponder the structure of the wolf pack. The alpha female is the only one that produces puppies. She's the only one that is bred. However, other females in the pack will go into heat at the same time, but they will not be bred. Those females might go into a false pregnancy and actually produce milk and help care for the litter of puppies the alpha female whelps.

I wonder who's decision it is that the other females aren't bred. The males? The bitches? Maybe they all go out for a girls night out (that last the duration of the heat cycle) while the Alpha couple hang around and romance.

 

[martemchik]

I think most people knew what he was implying, it was just worded poorly and could be easily misconstrued.

Nope, it's clear that there are some people on this forum that have no idea how biology works. It's quite sad really as the last biology class I took was in my freshman year of high school.

 

[martemchik]

Kinda makes you want to ponder the structure of the wolf pack. The alpha female is the only one that produces puppies. She's the only one that is bred. However, other females in the pack will go into heat at the same time, but they will not be bred. Those females might go into a false pregnancy and actually produce milk and help care for the litter of puppies the alpha female whelps.

I wonder who's decision it is that the other females aren't bred. The males? The bitches? Maybe they all go out for a girls night out (that last the duration of the heat cycle) while the Alpha couple hang around and romance.

My assumption would be that the pressure from the alpha female is what causes this to happen. I don't know for sure, as I've never studied wolves, but I have a feeling its the environmental force (even from other pack members) that causes this to happen.

 

[Lilie]

My assumption would be that the pressure from the alpha female is what causes this to happen. I don't know for sure, as I've never studied wolves, but I have a feeling its the environmental force (even from other pack members) that causes this to happen.

I would ponder further that there is some sort of rational thought process happening within that pack to create the environmental force. Be it from the individual member or the entire pack.

Many of us have had the pleasure of witnessing the interaction between an intact male and intact female when she comes into standing heat. Or experienced the mind altering chaos that occurs when you attempt to keep them apart.

Now consider 3 or 4 females in heat at the same time. I wonder how that male avoids the temptation. But, that would assume he'd have to have some sort of a rational thought process.

 

[martemchik]

Just quickly looked up the wolf thing...looks like a pack generally consists of the alphas and their offspring. Once the offspring are sexually mature, they leave the pack and try to find their own pack. So it’s not like there are 5 year old bitches in standing heat around the alpha male (who is usually their father). The idea that only the alphas breed is also just a “general” idea and there are plenty of recordings of when the lower bitches have litters as well.

Some might call what you describe rational thought, others will call it survival of the fittest. The strongest female prevents the others from mating. It happens in a lot of pack structures. That is probably not rational and it’s probably driven by instinct…

At the end of the day, neither of us know enough about the subject to have a real conversation about it and will just be throwing anecdotes we picked up here and there at each other to prove one another wrong. I can’t disprove the fact that there are other bitches in heat around a male wolf, because I don’t know when a wolf naturally has its first heat cycle. If it’s delayed until 2-3 years (I won’t assume that they have the same sexual maturity as dogs), then it can be inferred that they might leave the pack at that time or fight for breeding rights with the alpha.

 

[Lilie]

All righty then.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat.

<snipped>.

Your wording was a little wonky. But I understood what you were getting at, the drive to procreate is driven by hormones and hormonal cycles. Generally this is not something controlled by the higher reasoning parts of the brain in dogs or humans. (There's some good jokes there...but I'll leave it be. LOL!)

It's for the most part an autonomous function. Varies from species to species and environmental stresses can suppress, trigger or exaggerate hormone production.

For instance, a female in a very poor state of health or starvation will often stop ovulating.

I recently changed out some décor in one of my fish tanks and two fish that hadn't spawned in the several years I had them all of sudden got busy. I put some plants in that were good cover and tweaked water conditions which put them into what is termed 'breeding condition'. Their little fishie hormones kicked in and off they went.

I have to say, this has been one of the oddest threads I have read on this board. :crazy:

 

[martemchik]

I didn't realize I had to explain to people that their dogs don't think rationally and that humans aren't dogs. I didn't think I had to explain to women that if their bodies weren't capable of having offspring, they'd tell them that by not going through a cycle. I figured being the year 2015, most people (especially women) should know what kind of affect hormones and health have on the ability to have offspring. Figured that most women understand that their bodies go through monthly cycles because they are capable of having children, and in theory "want" to have children, and that it's the BRAIN of the woman that prevents that from occurring. It's kind of scary that as a twenty year old guy I have more of an understanding of how a female body works and that eventually it will (all on its own) realize that it can't have offspring because it's too old. So if we want to compare dogs to humans...clearly an 8 year old bitch's body has not told it that it's too old to have offspring.

I'm all for this bitch probably not needing to be bred...but the people need to give correct reasons for it and not just scream scare tactics from undereducated, inexperienced opinions that are not based in reason or reality. When that happens, that's when OP just leaves and does whatever they want anyways. If you give real reasons, explain things from experience and real knowledge of the subject, you might get through to the person, that's when they might change their mind. Not when you're freaking about the possible breeding of an "older" bitch and accusing them of doing it only for financial reasons.

Lesson learned to not expect much from the people on this forum when it comes to common sense and practical knowledge...

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

You are only 20 years old!

No kidding. I had you pegged at least in the mid 30s. So serious for someone your age.

Wowzers.

I think a couple of folks were messing with you a little bit......

On other forums when it got this silly we'd go off on a meme. Bacon was big for a while when we got tired of LOL cats. That's not allowed here though. It's how we handled threads like this.

Anywho, I think the OP is LONG gone and it sounds like his mind was made up. I just hope it works out O.K. for the female and the puppies.

 

[Jack's Dad]

I didn't realize I had to explain to people that their dogs don't think rationally and that humans aren't dogs. I didn't think I had to explain to women that if their bodies weren't capable of having offspring, they'd tell them that by not going through a cycle. I figured being the year 2015, most people (especially women) should know what kind of affect hormones and health have on the ability to have offspring. Figured that most women understand that their bodies go through monthly cycles because they are capable of having children, and in theory "want" to have children, and that it's the BRAIN of the woman that prevents that from occurring. It's kind of scary that as a twenty year old guy I have more of an understanding of how a female body works and that eventually it will (all on its own) realize that it can't have offspring because it's too old. So if we want to compare dogs to humans...clearly an 8 year old bitch's body has not told it that it's too old to have offspring.

I'm all for this bitch probably not needing to be bred...but the people need to give correct reasons for it and not just scream scare tactics from undereducated, inexperienced opinions that are not based in reason or reality. When that happens, that's when OP just leaves and does whatever they want anyways. If you give real reasons, explain things from experience and real knowledge of the subject, you might get through to the person, that's when they might change their mind. Not when you're freaking about the possible breeding of an "older" bitch and accusing them of doing it only for financial reasons.

Lesson learned to not expect much from the people on this forum when it comes to common sense and practical knowledge...

Can't wait to hear the women on the forum thanking you for the education about how their bodies work. :smirk:

Agree with the second quote.

 

[Sunflowers]

Can't wait to hear the women on the forum thanking you for the education about how their bodies work. :smirk:

Agree with the second quote.

It's all new to me. Until Max posted, I thought I had a penis.