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katieliz;6669193 [B said:
The rest of the discussion...not gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole except to say that the only people who should be breeding a senior bitch [/B](or breeding any bitch actually), are those who would not have to ask any questions on a message board about if it's okay.

ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that, considering the OP's apparent inexperience, might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.
I think this is the direction the thread should have gone.

Same old cast of characters taking this thread down a different path and validating what the OP set out to do. Wonder if we'll see his pups in the Urgent rescue thread in a year or two.

Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes:rolleyes:. Sigh.
 

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"Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat".

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing...last week there was some dialogue on an episode of "Girls" that I'd never heard before and I can't get it out of my head, it seems to apply here...

"Bitches be cray"...

thinking of a bitch having a heat because she "wants" to be bred is close to the most hysterical thing I've ever heard. The rest of the discussion...not gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole except to say that the only people who should be breeding a senior bitch (or breeding any bitch actually), are those who would not have to ask any questions on a message board about if it's okay.

ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that, considering the OP's apparent inexperience, might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.
I thought it was funny too! But then I was like, wait,.. Is there some truth to it? So I asked the question but no one answered me as of yet. One person did answer me that female dogs like to care for their puppies and it is also maternal instinct. Was it selzer? But no one has actually answered me yet if a dog can choose to go into heat so she can have puppies one day. I'm still waiting. If someone DID answer me and I didn't get it, I apologize.
 

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I thought it was funny too! But then I was like, wait,.. Is there some truth to it? So I asked the question but no one answered me as of yet. One person did answer me that female dogs like to care for their puppies and it is also maternal instinct. Was it selzer? But no one has actually answered me yet if a dog can choose to go into heat so she can have puppies one day. I'm still waiting. If someone DID answer me and I didn't get it, I apologize.
No. I can imagine that environmental factors may possibly play a part in skipping a heat only based on the fact that us human females can skip ovulation due to stress and hormonal imbalances, illness, not 100 on whether or not that applies to dogs. I think the majority of unfixed females have natural heat cycles that enables them to procreate.
 

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No. I can imagine that environmental factors may possibly play a part in skipping a heat only based on the fact that us human females can skip ovulation due to stress and hormonal imbalances, illness, not 100 on whether or not that applies to dogs. I think the majority of unfixed females have natural heat cycles that enables them to procreate.
Thank you darling! Martemchik... I think we got our answer! ;-)
 

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It's not his or the dog's first litter - where are you getting this info?
Whether dogs first litter is regardless and not in my comment, so why that was brought forward:confused:

I think Katieliz summed it up nicely;)
That's my answer to your question. K.
 

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I think this is the direction the thread should have gone.

Same old cast of characters taking this thread down a different path and validating what the OP set out to do. Wonder if we'll see his pups in the Urgent rescue thread in a year or two.

Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes:rolleyes:. Sigh.
Bitch already had litters before, so not first litter.

Barbie, yes, I answered you, you didn't get it. Not sure if you can get it. Sorry.

As for maternal instinct, a bitch that doesn't have it is really awful to try and get her to raise her pups. Muzzle her and let the pups suck for at least 24 hours, and then raise them by hand I guess. But if you have ever witnessed a bitch giving birth to puppies, first litter, you would see that instinct kick in. She knows she has to get the placenta off. She knows she has to clean that pup and make it squeak. She knows to stay right with them and keep them warm. The go for the teets, and she knows they need to be stimulted in order to potty. She may not know why she does what she does, but she does it all the same. It is instinct. And yes, they will carry all of this out without any sort of training, on their own, in a cave or den if need be.

Sometimes our domestication of the dog, our humanizing of them may effect their natural ability in this area. And we have heard of bitches who reject puppies or try to kill them. This is abnormal and such a bitch should not be bred again. But that doesn't mean there is not maternal instinct -- not sure if I called it that. But if I did, it is close enough. Some things you just have to see, be there to understand I guess. But if you have never than scoff away.

I can't get over the, well-if-there-are-no-more-GSDs-that's-ok-too attitude. I don't know if there is any way we can ever understand one another. I can accept that some people don't ever want to breed dogs, but the idea that they would be happy if the breed no longer existed, that is beyond my comprehension. I just hope there aren't too many people thinking like that.

I let my nieces watch the last litter be born. I am sure that at least two people of the up and coming generation will not be anti-puppies.
 

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qb...do you really feel that someone with much, if any, experience would not only ask if it's "okay" to breed a 8 year old bitch, but also if they should "take her to the vet" to have a health check first????? do you know that this poster does indeed have any experience whatsoever?

BarbieLoves, I'm going to answer your question also...there is absolutely no chance based in reality that any bitch of any breed "chooses" to go into heat because she consciously, thoughtfully, wants to breed or wants to be a mother. These dogs are impossibly smart and sometimes almost human I admit...but the assumption that their heat cycles are anything but a biologic function is totally incorrect and a case of where I totally agree that we must NOT assign human emotions to our bitches. Or they be cray, lololol...

Now, I have seen bitches who were bred a few too many times (or at too advanced an age) who, after carrying and whelping their puppies had the unmistakable look on their faces saying, "oh, please, NOT THIS AGAIN". Yup, I've seen those bitches alright.
 

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Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes:rolleyes:. Sigh.
Whether dogs first litter is regardless and not in my comment, so why that was brought forward:confused:
It was brought forward because you said it clearly in your response.

Your newest response clearly shows your ignorance and inexperience - whether it is the female's first litter or not is of monumental importance when answering the question.

If it is her first litter, she is too old to be bred for the first time and answer is no.
If it is not her first litter and she has whelped a healthy litter recently, then the answer is depends, and is based on the circumstance surrounding the breeding.

So you see, that's why it matters :)
 

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Selzer- I think you are right that we will never understand each other or agree on this particular topic. However from what I read you were discussing that bitches will have a desire and instinct to care for their pups, and go through all the natural things to bring puppies into this world and care for them. However that wasn't my question. My question was if a bitch can CHOOSE to go into heat because she likes being pregnant or likes having babies. Your answer, is just an answer ONCE she is already pregnant. I'm talking about before... If that makes sense? I think someone already answered with a no. I kind of lean towards this too, that NO a bitch cannot choose to go into heat as much as humans cannot choose to menstruate if they want to have babies one day. As far as I know (I'm no phd) but I think it just happens. Due to... Nature and evolution or what have you. We don't choose to sexually mature or go through puberty or anything like that as much as other animals. Is this a wrong assessment? Trying to keep to the topic of dogs, basically, I just thought the statement was funny because I never for once thought bitches can choose to go into heat because they like to be bred. Haha
 

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Lol at the judgement from people who have no experience and clearly very limited knowledge on the subject of breeding. If you think a female who's in standing heat is going to turn down any male, you're mistaken. If she's 8 and going through normal heat cycles, then she's breedable. And without any other info, no one here can judge as to whether or not OP is a BYB. Not everyone shares their entire personal life and every bit of detailed information with strangers over the Internet. Get your craigslist dogs and be happy.
 

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Sue, maternal instinct and "coming into heat due to a desire to breed" are two vastly different things.

I have very deep roots in this breed and will save the discussion of what I've seen happen over the last sixty-some years because of indiscriminate, careless, and uneducated breeding for another time. Suffice it to say that for someone who grew up watching the best of the best, it's very, very sad.

Nothing personal to anyone here who breeds, and I also want to add that I know nothing about Czech, DDR, or working line German dogs, or the state of breeding those subtypes.
 

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Lol at the judgement from people who have no experience and clearly very limited knowledge on the subject of breeding. If you think a female who's in standing heat is going to turn down any male, you're mistaken. If she's 8 and going through normal heat cycles, then she's breedable. And without any other info, no one here can judge as to whether or not OP is a BYB. Not everyone shares their entire personal life and every bit of detailed information with strangers over the Internet. Get your craigslist dogs and be happy.
Iiii... Don't think anyone is arguing a female is going to turn down a male if they are in heat. I think the question is can a female choose to be in heat. Ummm NO. I have my craigslist dog, and he is great except he is a big clown. Anyone want to swap dogs? Jk hehe. Captain is fast asleep. He could give two licks about 8 yr old female gsd's being bred. *sigh*
 

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Here ya go, I will just bold the pertinent part:

If a bitch is healthy, she will go into heat. I have not known any to not go into heat due to age, but I believe that could be a possibility. If she is healthy and is bred when in standing heat she will probably become pregnant.

A bitch's instinct is to breed when she is in standing heat. I do not know how she can possibly connect that to the whelping process or having puppies. But her instinct will also drive her to clean and care for her puppies, some are much better than others.

Some bitches can be excellent dams, but will be ready for their pups to go home at eight weeks. Others take motherhood to a whole other level. They play with their puppies and they enjoy their company, long after the eight weeks. This is not just instincts, but preference. Dogs are complex critters with instincts, preferences, who can create and maintain strong bonds with creatures of other species. They can be trained, and trained to disobey if it is unsafe (seeing eye dogs). They have both choices and instinct, preference and instinct, training and instinct. The great lie is that bitches suffer through motherhood, and are forced to be bred, forced to have puppies, forced to raise puppies as though it is some terrible, awful ordeal. There are many things we subject dogs to that are far more irritating, frustrating, stressful than having a litter of pups. Like cramping them into a crate all day, or taking some dogs to the vet. I have never had a bitch loose a tooth over having a litter of puppies, but I have had a bitch break a tooth trying to get out of a crate.

I don't believe bitches need to be bred to be complete. But breeding bitches is not some evil thing, not to the bitch herself. It could be bad for the breed, if you are breeding poor temperament or health, and it may be bad for pet population. But it is not bad for the bitch. That is simply a lie.
Selzer- I think you are right that we will never understand each other or agree on this particular topic. However from what I read you were discussing that bitches will have a desire and instinct to care for their pups, and go through all the natural things to bring puppies into this world and care for them. However that wasn't my question. My question was if a bitch can CHOOSE to go into heat because she likes being pregnant or likes having babies. Your answer, is just an answer ONCE she is already pregnant. I'm talking about before... If that makes sense? no it doesn't, I said clearly, if a bitch is healthy, she will go into heat -- nothing about choosing to do so. I think someone already answered with a no. I kind of lean towards this too, that NO a bitch cannot choose to go into heat as much as humans cannot choose to menstruate if they want to have babies one day. As far as I know (I'm no phd) but I think it just happens. Due to... Nature and evolution or what have you. We don't choose to sexually mature or go through puberty or anything like that as much as other animals. Is this a wrong assessment? Trying to keep to the topic of dogs, basically, I just thought the statement was funny because I never for once thought bitches can choose to go into heat because they like to be bred. Haha
Well, there was this one bitch I had, that would choose to go into heat each and every time I signed her up for classes. :laugh: First day of class, without fail, she would start dripping. :eek:
How I got a title on that bitch, still amazes me.
 

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Sue, maternal instinct and "coming into heat due to a desire to breed" are two vastly different things.

I have very deep roots in this breed and will save the discussion of what I've seen happen over the last sixty-some years because of indiscriminate, careless, and uneducated breeding for another time. Suffice it to say that for someone who grew up watching the best of the best, it's very, very sad.

Nothing personal to anyone here who breeds, and I also want to add that I know nothing about Czech, DDR, or working line German dogs, or the state of breeding those subtypes.
Please read the bolded in my response to Barbie. I have NEVER suggested that a bitch comes into heat due to a desire to breed. They do desire it very much when they are in standing heat, but they are not desiring puppies, they are driven by instinct to mate with the male that is present. It is natural. It is unnatural to surgically remove the hormones and bits of their anatomy. But that is just going to spark enough material for another couple of dozen threads.

I think that the instinct a bitch has drives her to mate with a male while she is in standing heat, and it drives her to care for her young when they are whelped. I don't know that they are different things. I think it is just her instincts. Some bitches who mate willingly enough reject or attack puppies, so a defficiency in the one does not necessarily mean the other is also defficient. I just don't know whether we chop up instincts into instincts to mate, instinct to care for her young, and so forth, I see instinct as a package deal, understanding that it will not be the same for all canines -- a dog can have strong instincts in some areas, and in other areas they may seem to be non-existent, but this is really not an area I have studied. The bitches I have had have all seemed to have great instincts for both breeding and for whelping and raising their young.
 

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"Please read the bolded in my response to Barbie. I have NEVER suggested that a bitch comes into heat due to a desire to breed."

So the answer is NO? Thanks... That's all I needed.
And you would've found that way back in my previous post, quite clearly.

Not sure what point it makes for you though. If a bitch came into heat because she wanted puppies, then it would be ok, hunky dory to have all the bitches everywhere having puppies? It is almost as silly as suggesting that because a bitch does not come into heat because she wants puppies, breeding bitches is forcing them to have puppies, when you have it backwards: we are actually orchestrating breedings or no breeding at our whim, which means LESS litters all told. If it was up to the bitch, she would have two litters per year. Because we step in and prevent that from happening, she is bred fewer times -- is that ok, or should all bitches everywhere be allowed the freedom to mate at will?

If she mated at will, it would not be to another GSD, it would probably be to a rangy, mangy border collie mix from down the street. So then that would me more mixed breed dogs. And, as we know 25% of dogs in shelters are purebred, or that is the figure, 75% are mixes, which means more mixes. Is that what you want? I don't get it.
 

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I think what we all want are fewer breeders breeding that don't know what they're doing.

and I think that the craigslist reference was unkind and really mean spirited.

and I think that any statement by anybody can be twisted and re/misinterpreted to justify anybody's point of view or agenda, and sometimes only for the sake of argument because somebody takes something personal which was not meant to be.

but man, that craigslist dog reference was just plain and simple...mean spirited. we all love our dogs no matter where they came from. and KUDOS to anyone who gives a home and loving kindness to any dog from anywhere who needs it.

that's all from me about this.
 

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I think what we all want are fewer breeders breeding that don't know what they're doing.

and I think that the craigslist reference was unkind and really mean spirited.

and I think that any statement by anybody can be twisted and re/misinterpreted to justify anybody's point of view or agenda, and sometimes only for the sake of argument because somebody takes something personal which was not meant to be.

but man, that craigslist dog reference was just plain and simple...mean spirited. we all love our dogs no matter where they came from. and KUDOS to anyone who gives a home and loving kindness to any dog from anywhere who needs it.

that's all from me about this.

Why was it mean-spirited?



Alexis noted that some people are against any sort of breeding.
She simply said that if they are of that mindset, to go to craigslist, get a dog, and be happy.

When I find interesting is that no matter where the dog is available for adoption, someone, somewhere, bred the dog, whether intentionally or not. So even if you go to rescue or craigslist, you are still indirectly supporting breeding. Unless you believe that all those dogs are mating and whelping in the streets.
 
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