[Thecowboysgirl]

Please take this constructively; it is plain to me that a lot of the people postulating on Dominant dogs have never had ANY actual experience with said dog. Some of the examples of dominance or traits of dominant dog are purely conjecture or what is read. And half the people writing about a truly dominant dog don't have any first hand experience either...smh!

Umm ok thats fine. I handle a LOT of dogs and have for a long time because of what I do and have done in the past for work. Maybe none of them was ever a truly "dominant" dog, if such a thing exists. And if I have never handled one having been working with dogs for over 10 years, then what is the point of spending so much time thinking about and pondering about the elusive dominant dog who apparently is 1 in 1000 dogs or who knows...those of you who have experience with it feel free to tell me what percentage you think they are. That would be like spending most of ones vet schooling studying one disease which is almost never seen instead of becoming skilled at treating the ones that are seen every day.

Dogs absolutely get the upper hand and know it sometimes. They absolutely bully their owners sometimes. They act like spoiled horrible brats soetimes. I don't personally see any of this as a result of dominance or trying to climb a social hierarchy. Mostly it appears to be opportunistic pleasure seeking or habitual repitition of behaviors that have been rewarding or successful in the past. Or habitual repitition of behaviors that have had no consequence in the past.

Whatever. Being the lowly weak human who serves my dogs I will sign off to go cater to them now

 

[cliffson1]

Whoever said that dogs don't bully people or the other constructs that you listed....of course they do! That has nothing to do with dominant dogs as you well know....but that doesn't mean that dominant dogs are a myth. There are traits to dominant or some people call them alpha dogs( terminology), and listing all the things they aren't tells folks nothing about what they ARE. They are very uncommon, that we can agree on....but I think the OP was inquiring about these type dogs.....most pet people have never encountered a dominant dog. If they do, they almost inadvertently end up in shelter or PTS as result of unfortunate incident. But talk to people who have been in IPO or LE for long periods of time and most have knowledge of, have trained with, or even a very very few owned a dominant dog. First hand knowledge!
That's all I'm saying....��

 

[cliffson1]

A truly dominant dog will not accept domination, submission, or unfair correction from any source, but they will accept a partnership of equity with their owner.

 

[cdwoodcox]

LOL CD seriously?

Just being funny. Or at least an attempt of.

 

[Pan_GSD]

a partnership of equity with their owner.

if a dog is able to comprehend this concept that is evidence of extreme intelligence
i've heard from a documentary that a wolf can live with/under a human but when the wolf reaches the age of 2, it becomes extremely hard or impossible to live together since the wolf's intelligence reaches maturity and its independence makes it challenging for that wolf to live under a human's orders

 

[cdwoodcox]

but they will accept a partnership of equity with their owner.

Which is what we should strive for regardless of the dog.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

OP originally said "if the human does not take a leadership role, the dog will" to me this sounded like any dog will take over if there is not a "dominant" human or whatever. To me this has little or nothing to do with the uncommon "actual dominant dog" who is rarely seen by us "pet" people.

I guess yes in a sense the dog will take over if it doesn't get leadership from the human. I guess my thing is what is the motivation behind that takeover and what is the dog's actual perception

I just don't think dogs are constantly trying to one up us. They do what feels good, is rewarding, and is allowed. Kids run amock without proper parenting. it doesn't mean they are leaders....they are like water flowing until it reaches a barrier

I could a LOT farther philosophically questioning the mentality of male dominated law enforcement and military and the hierarchies within on the reception of the dogs used by those agencies but it is philosophical pondering since I am not handling those dogs day in and day out. but I do wonder.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

that was supposed to say perception of dogs not reception

 

[Pan_GSD]

Which is what we should strive for regardless of the dog.

is a dog's standard level of intelligence capable of understanding that concept?
partnership of equity, at least the way i'm interpreting it, implies that the dog knows the human's role and the dog's in its entirety, and is able to mentally delegate tasks/roles and accept that reality

this is outside the bounds of "you are my owner/you provide comfort,food,shelter, exercise/there are a set of observed rules under this household/some concept of love,trust"

but understanding one's role and being able to mutually agree to both party's difference?

 

[Jax08]

@Thecowboysgirl

I'm not sure I understand the last point? Being a man has nothing to do with accepting a "a partnership of equity with their owner". Is that what you meant?

Again, back to the single litter of dominant dogs that I can think of....out of that litter, a female owned and handled by a woman. Would take down any man out there but the handler can correct her FAIRLY. Out of that same litter, a male that nobody can correct, including the males that have owned him. My trainer owned a male (Czech lines) that she was the only one that could really handle him. She's 100# dripping wet. It's about the relationship for the dog.

 

[voodoolamb]

is a dog's standard level of intelligence capable of understanding that concept?
partnership of equity, at least the way i'm interpreting it, implies that the dog knows the human's role and the dog's in its entirety, and is able to mentally delegate tasks/roles and accept that reality

this is outside the bounds of "you are my owner/you provide comfort,food,shelter, exercise/there are a set of observed rules under this household/some concept of love,trust"

but understanding one's role and being able to mutually agree to both party's difference?

I believe so.

I've had the pleasure of working farm collies on livestock. The dogs certainly knew their role. They knew mine much better than I did at first too ^_^

I was standing on the wrong side of the gate. Where I was standing the gate couldn't be open to let them out to the pasture. Which was my job. I was working two dogs on heifers and calves. The bitch broke away from the herd and came to me and started nipping my ankle and barking at me. She didn't let up until I was at the right spot to open the gate...

As for understanding differences between species in the family pet... Haven't you ever had a dog ask you for help? That seems to show a fundamental understanding of differences between us.

 

[Pan_GSD]

I believe so.

I've had the pleasure of working farm collies on livestock. The dogs certainly knew their role. They knew mine much better than I did at first too ^_^

I was standing on the wrong side of the gate. Where I was standing the gate couldn't be open to let them out to the pasture. Which was my job. I was working two dogs on heifers and calves. The bitch broke away from the herd and came to me and started nipping my ankle and barking at me. She didn't let up until I was at the right spot to open the gate...

As for understanding differences between species in the family pet... Haven't you ever had a dog ask you for help? That seems to show a fundamental understanding of differences between us.

that is smart

i can only speak for my dog, which is my first dog, never had a family pet before
aside from waking me up by licking my face, or dropping his toy on my feet asking me to play, i can't really recall my dog asking me for too much stuff, lol

i like to think i stay ahead and try to give him what he needs whether it be food or exercise

hopefully there will be a time in the future where my dog will surprise me with his intelligence
so far, my dog is acting like what i've come to expect from a typical dog :nerd:

 

[voodoolamb]

that is smart

i can only speak for my dog, which is my first dog, never had a family pet before
aside from waking me up by licking my face, or dropping his toy on my feet asking me to play, i can't really recall my dog asking me for too much stuff, lol

i like to think i stay ahead and try to give him what he needs whether it be food or exercise

hopefully there will be a time in the future where my dog will surprise me with his intelligence
so far, my dog is acting like what i've come to expect from a typical dog :nerd:

Dogs are truly capable of stunning intelligence. Have you ever heard of the Moscow subway dogs? Stray dogs in Russia have actually learned to navigate the city by subways.

Those are dogs left completely to their own devices. I think a lot of pet owners inadvertently crush their pets intellectual capabilities by micromanaging and over training. They spend so much time on do this do that sit down stay heel - they create robot dogs. I've always liked to encourage problem solving in my dogs. The more exercise their brain gets the better they become at using it.

 

[Pan_GSD]

Dogs are truly capable of stunning intelligence. Have you ever heard of the Moscow subway dogs? Stray dogs in Russia have actually learned to navigate the city by subways.


Those are dogs left completely to their own devices. I think a lot of pet owners inadvertently crush their pets intellectual capabilities by micromanaging and over training. They spend so much time on do this do that sit down stay heel - they create robot dogs. I've always liked to encourage problem solving in my dogs. The more exercise their brain gets the better they become at using it.

will def watch it later

i've heard amazing stories of dogs returing back to the owner/owner's homes after accidental/deliberate separations

i want to do my best to provide the best for my dogs within my means so i'm always open to learning

 

[Jenny720]

Yes dogs are incredibly intelligent more then they get credit for. Micro managing does disable dogs from thingking on their own. There was a video somewhere of a dog sneaking into a target/kmart or Walmart who went down aisle a grabbed a bone and snuck out of the store was real cute to see. The store manager caught it all on video forgetting where I saw that or I would post the link here.

 

[Deb]

A truly dominant dog will not accept domination, submission, or unfair correction from any source, but they will accept a partnership of equity with their owner.

And once you've had one you compare all others to that one. It's a partnership of work and trust.

 

[wolfy dog]

Clicker training will not produce robots as the method requires free thinking on the dog's part (my personal experience). It made it possible to train sight hounds.

 

[Jenny720]

This was the video I was speaking of. In regards to intelligence of the dog.
http://www.elitereaders.com/dog-steals-bone-from-grocery-store/
I always felt our first shepherd was a dominant dog. His sheer presence spoke volumes he was quite a dog.

 

[WIBackpacker]

Dogs are truly capable of stunning intelligence. Have you ever heard of the Moscow subway dogs? Stray dogs in Russia have actually learned to navigate the city by subways.

https://youtu.be/YxJf2L2B5fY

Those are dogs left completely to their own devices. I think a lot of pet owners inadvertently crush their pets intellectual capabilities by micromanaging and over training. They spend so much time on do this do that sit down stay heel - they create robot dogs. I've always liked to encourage problem solving in my dogs. The more exercise their brain gets the better they become at using it.

I spent some time in Chile a few years ago. Street dogs in Santiago did the same thing.... they would get on the public bus at one stop, and get off at another stop. Matter of fact, on and off, then cross lanes of heavy traffic after looking both ways. People just ignored them. It was startling, to say the least.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

@Jax08

I was wondering to myself if the perception of dominance hierarchy in dogs, particularly GSDs, because of their close history with military and law enforcement...


if they are no longer #1 dog of choice they once we're?

I wonder if the male dominated and hierarchical makeup of those organizations (military and law enforcement) have any impact on the way the dogs are viewed.

I know that can't be the only factor since certainly "harder" dogs would be needed for those jobs than some others (hard may be not the best word and I honestly don't know if people would consider it to be related to whether a dog is dominant or not)

but it seems to be there is a strict hierarchy in the military...might being a part of that make someone more inclined to look at a dog'show actions and assign a motive of climbing a dominance hierarchy.

sorry I am not explaining this super well.