Dominance theory has been debunked in both wolves and dogs. It is a ridiculous conclusion drawn from very poorly done research on captive wolves.

 

So you don't think that dogs will step up as leader over a weak human.
I'm not talking about humans alpha rolling their dogs I'm talking about being a leader through fair and consistent training and bonding with your dog.

 

No, I don't.

They may ignore said human, or disobey said human, but that's hardly acting as a "leader" or being "dominant".

Of course, I wouldn't consider what you just described to be "dominance", either. Just sounds like good handling to me. I don't see where the alpha/dominance part comes into play.

 

It's the little things that establish dominance vs submission. For example, the dog who shoves you out of the way to get out the door first is disrespecting you. Solution: teach the dog to sit before opening the door. Problem solved nicely.

My male WL can get bossy, even do a little bullying when he's required to do something he doesn't want to do--usually that means controlling himself. He has zero aggression toward humans, so once again, simple obedience is the easy fix.

Dogs vary in how important they consider rank order to be, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Some dogs, like my male, constantly check in to see who's in charge today. He's incredibly hard headed and has very low handler sensitivity. When he's in defiance mode, he has no interest in treats or toys. He's a constant challenge.

 

I have one like this, thank goodness its a female. She was the dominant puppy from a hard line of working GSDs. Pulling? She'll still try it. Dominant dogs will try to barge out the door before you, eat food off kitchen counters, things like that. The cure is obedience training. Once in a while she will still test if she can go in and out before a human. She's a lot better, though. She gets trained several times a day with short 15 minute sessions. Its a challage but one we enjoy.

Dainerra> The couch is soft and comfy. He growls when you try to make him get off because he doesn't want to get down. He's hoping that you won't make him. He wants to be on the couch right now; it's not likely that he is thinking that he wants to be the boss of you.

A dog growling at because a person came and got on our own couch. That is disgusting, I would not tolerate it. This would not be a problem because no dog is allowed on the furniture here. Two reasons. 1.I am the boss. 2. Enough fur comes off this dog every day to clothe an adult rabbit. Literally.

 

I don't think a dog clamoring out a door is dominance. When I think of dominance I think of a dog who will do what they want and if a weak owner or handler tries to correct the dog they will use force to back the handler off. Could be a growl could be teeth on skin. Or a dog who feels it has been put in a position to protect the weak owner/handler when the dog really just wants to fall into his beta place in the pack.
Some of the opinions on the other group also believe that dogs/wolves don't have packs they have family structures where mom and dad are in charge.

 

The family structure thing is true. The whole "pack" business was based on studying the behavior of artificially created packs of captive wolves.

 

To me it sounds like snow flakes changing the name from packs to family structure to make it seem more human than animalistic. Mother/father = alpha male and female. Brother and sisters following mother and father = lower rankings pack members following the alphas. If alpha dog theory is debunked then wouldn't mommy and daddy dogs also be debunked.

 

You can believe whatever you like, but it doesn't change reality. If you're really interested in educating yourself on the subject, there's plenty of published research out there.

 

There are plenty of articles, much of it is based on misinterpretation of newer findings by Mech and others. Dr.Beckoff has good summary article on this.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ay.com/blog/animal-emotions/201202/social-dominance-is-not-myth-wolves-dogs-and

 

Well explain how it's different other than changing a couple words around.

 

The way in which adult wolves relate to their own adolescent pups has little to do with how they relate to unrelated adults. Once grown, most young wolves leave their parents to form their own mating pairs.

Permanent pack structures just don't exist the way previous researchers indicated.

 

Nigel, I'll read your article later today - looks interesting. I'm headed out to do some training, but will be back to discuss.

 

Our pet dogs may not be trying to take over leadership of the family, but they do try to manipulate to get what they want. Every thinking creature does. If we aren't wise to their ways it can feel like they are trying to take over. My little one constantly tries to teach me to chase her. She must think I am too stupid to learn what she it telling me...even though it is very very obvious. She doesn't want to be an Alpha, she just wants her way.

I don't call myself a Pack Leader. My husband and I are Benevolent Dictators. Also you can call me, "She Who Must Be Obeyed". Any family needs leaders and fair rules and humane consequences. Nature is much more brutal than we are.

 

I think dog behavior is too nuanced and complex to pigeon hole it into Dominance/Submission, Alpha/Beta/Omega, Pack leader or follower etc....

There have been several studies done on feral/stray dog packs. Dogs naturally have a VERY VERY different "pack structure" than wolves. It is a very different structure than what we strive for as a blended co species "family" as well.

Natural dog packs tend to have transient members, that come and go. Leadership roles are often differed. You can look at a dog pack on monday and the brown one is the clear leader, on wednesday it's the black one, and on friday it the spotted one. These changes happen more often than not without power displays. It is often noted in said studies, that it's not the most dominant dog that leads the pack, but the most experienced. The leadership changes based on the current situation the pack is facing.

I find the studies on stray and feral dogs fascinating. I think I have learned more about natural dog behavior from reading the observations of scientists on dogs left to their own devices than I have gleamed from the dozens upon dozens of training books I've read, all the seminars I've attended, and the countless conversations with trainers, breeders and owners.

 

Natural dog packs tend to have transient members, that come and go. Leadership roles are often differed. You can look at a dog pack on monday and the brown one is the clear leader, on wednesday it's the black one, and on friday it the spotted one. These changes happen more often than not without power displays.

But suppose those feral dog packs had a dominant dog in their group. Chances are they would always be the leader simply because the other dogs don't want to be leader. If no one really wants to be leader then the exchange back and forth would be no big deal.

 

Personally I think it's a matter of biddability and consequences, not necessarily a matter of being "alpha". Some dogs aim to please the owners, others aim to please themselves. If they consequences are not greater than the reward, then why not go for the reward? And if the person you're with doesn't reinforce those consequences, then why not go ahead and do what you want? Corrections help set boundaries of what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't. And if you don't create those boundaries in some way or if you're not consistent with it, then your dog is never going to grasp what you're trying to tell them.

 

Yet in a littler of puppies one turns out to be the dominant puppy (the mother is dominant to all, obviously) and this puppy bites the other puppies the hardest and gets the best teat (hind teat?). I have seen this myself with litters of puppies when I was a kid.

And then, when I went to pick out and claim my first German Shepherd puppy when they were 5 weeks old, I picked the one that came and got in my lap three times in a row. I thought oh how sweet, she likes me. It was really because Inga was saying I Do What I Want. Do you think a baby puppy does not want this role?

 

What is it that makes you believe these puppy behaviors are dominance based instead of drive based?

 

I think that drive based behaviors can be mistaken for dominance, and considering how rare truly dominant dogs are, it happens far more often than not.

For example, Someone up the thread mentioned they thought dominance was a dog that would use its teeth to force a handler to back off when a correction was given...

Many years ago I had a shep/collie mix, I would be working the dog on leash, he'd make a mistake, I'd give him a leash pop and he would come straight up the leash ready and willing to sink his teeth in. He gave me stitches the first time.

This was NOT dominant behavior. Not at all.

See, he had incredibly high prey drive. I lived on a farm. He would get so jacked up because of all the moving critters around the farm, the leash pop put him further into drive and he acted out of frustration. It was redirected prey aggression. Not dominance.

 

This not pick the highest or lowest ranking puppy advice is aimed at those who go to a pick from a whole pile of puppies. I think the advice of breeders who know which pup is likely to satisfy your requirements is a good thing, since they know the pups, they see them interacting.

My previous dog,a Whippet, I went to pick a female from the 10 puppies available. I wanted a yellow and white one. Numerous, and usually the same individual puppies were climbing all over me. Finally, the most beautiful and perfect female pup emerged from under some wood planks where the bitch had a den. Although I knew this was probably the lowest pup I took her home. Then I found out what she was really like- not timid at all, a rowdy little monster. I called the breeder and asked if this was the lowest pup? She laughed and said no. That is the dominant pup. She had bitten her own mother over something and the bitch had just given her a good disciplining. Sight hounds are very soft dogs in general. This dominant whippet was the best of all the Greyhounds, Russian Wolfhounds and Whippets I have ever had.

 

This dominant whippet was the best of all the Greyhounds, Russian Wolfhounds and Whippets I have ever had.

I had a male Whippet for 14 years. It was the best dog I have ever had and I learned so much form him regarding pack structure. He ruled fairly over the 3 other dogs; he was my best instructor in this field; never picked a fight but never put up with c**p either. I never saw him bully any of the others, although he would test them off and on. I definitely saw pack structure in that group but it was based on my own mini research :wink2:.
I never favored him though. Still, to this day, when in doubt when working with dogs, I ask myself, "What would Rusty have done?" And the answer mostly is "Don't accept it!"

 

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2016/10/18/dominance-deniers-killing-dogs/

This is worth a read. He makes some great points.

"For the past 15,000 – 30,000 years, we have lived with dogs. We’ve bred them for specific functions, truncating and manipulating their drives for specific jobs, and we have many different breeds. But fundamentally—they are all dogs. And over the thousands of years we’ve been working together, does it not make sense that dogs are hard-wired to operate within a pack that includes humans?

I say it does. I would even argue that to a large extent, domesticated dogs have evolved to look specifically to humans to lead them. Dogs are dogs because they work cooperatively with us. They want to work with us. If they didn’t, they’d still be wolves."

"Let me also note that the reverse is also true. Much that gets chalked up to dominance often has nothing to do with it at all. People will take to heart advice such as always eating before the dog, never letting the dog go out the door first, and never let dogs up on beds or couches.

When dogs and humans eat has nothing to do with establishing pack structure. The average dog politely walking out the front door before you is generally not a problem (with some specific exceptions, usually specific guarding breeds. A lot of dogs love being up on the bed because they want to be close to their owners. There’s nothing wrong with any of this. Much depends on the dog in question too. For instance, is a dog growling when you approach the couch? Sure, that could be dominance. But it might not be. You have to look at a lot of factors, including the breed."

 

I don't think I believe the dominance theory, either way. I have used positive training with all of them with pretty good results. It's interesting to watch them because 2 of mine have had no training and you wouldn't know it, because they picked up good behaviors from the others. I think if you start with one dog and add to the pack that first dog can set the tone. I believe that is why I have a houseful of confident, happy, independent(in a good way) thinkers. Robyn can be what I call an opportunist, she will take advantage of a situation if if benefits her(with the other dogs). I can see them thinking, I love watching them.

In everyday life I allow them to make choices, which was pretty much how they were trained. The GSD club trainers always told us to wait a second on z correction to see what the dogs would do. I have seen some not make the right choice but I have never had mine not do so. It transferred over to real life.

We seem to have a great mutual respect for each other, if that makes sense? Take space for instance, I respect their space and they respect mine. If they are on the couch and see me coming, they automatically move. I don't have to tell them anything. It's always been that way, we don't know any different.

 

I think there are very few truly dominant dogs out there. Best discussion I've ever seen was on a board we aren't allowed to post a link too.

No. I don't think the general dog will take over the leadership role. I think dogs with no leadership will behave like unruly toddlers with no rule. In some cases, where the handler is unclear and babies the dog, the dog will develop a learned helplessness. But rarely will you see a dog develop an "alpha" position.

 

Inept handlers: weak, unstable, inconsistent, will create insecure dogs, dogs who do not trust the owner to protect them. The dogs are on a tolerance spectrum of sorts. A soft dog might tuck tail and try to hide behind the owner she has no faith in, but will not be aggressive. A stronger dog might bark and lunch, snap and even bite a perceived threat. This is not dominance. It is protecting oneself, when the owner has given no indication that they have things covered.

Some dogs with inept handlers will learn that certain behaviors get them what they want. grumbling near the food dish gets people to back off and let him eat in peace. Grumping or snarling when being groomed might stop the behavior. The initial fearful behavior worked and now they have learned to grump, snarl, or snap when their feet or ears are being touched.

This is not a comfortable place for dogs. They have no trust in and no communications with the people that own them. They are basically in a constant survival mode. I don't see this as dominance. I see it more as a dog whose response to instability and inconsistency is a failure to trust.

Owners who fail to recognize a shut down in training and call it stubbornness are going to punish unfairly. Owners who have unrealistic expectations for puppies will create problems like this, and those who press the pups into situations lacking confidence, the pups will eventually protect itself and learn that the behaviors for protecting itself, gets him what he wants. He learns to be a bully.

As for packs. I believe they begin for the most part as a breeding pair, and the first litter, in wolves one litter per year, then the second litter. Certain pups, because of their natural pack order will run with the sire and dam longer and others will break away from the pack and start their own packs. I guess I see less harm in seeing it as a family structure, than the alpha-dominance shtuff that people try to use to relate to their dogs.

There are pack behaviors and pack orders. But in domestic dogs, I think it (pack order) really doesn't relate at all to the human. Dogs are smart. They know we are the human and they are the dogs.

 

I can agree with all of this except pushing them into situations if they lack confidence. I think that a lot of young pups show some insecurity in new situations. I use that to my advantage to teach them it's ok and they can count on me. Pulling them out of the situation is not going to help later on when they are in the same situation and older. Just like anything else in life they have to accept these situations in order to be well rounded and part of society. Or you end up with a dog that can't go anywhere without liability.

 

Lots of people seem to have pet type dogs. An Eastern European working line GSD is like no dog I have ever known.

 

How does that matter? You work them, mind and body and they are still a dog at the end of the day. Years ago police dogs were separated from the household. They slept outside, went to work and never socialized with the family. Now I notice they are inside, a part of the family, sleeping on couches and beds. These are dogs that work for a living, but even working dogs need to be just a dog. If anything it makes them more valuable.

 

Varik is 75/25 DDR/WGWL. They're not special snowflakes. He IS different than any other GSD i've had. He's much more independent, not nearly as pack oriented as I would like.

He's pushy and could have been a despot if he had been with someone less ... determined, was very slow to mature and he really needed a better handler than he was stuck with, even though I had previous (4 GSDs before) experience. He's still a stable, publicly affable (approachable, but not attention seeking--if not in the vehicle) dog. Lives with a 6 lb Persian and grand kids randomly visiting. He does listen to and respect me, but good lord! The first year was the longest year of my life.

 

Inga is like this- and now.... she is a teenager! Determined, but she loves to train, loves to work. She is a full time job.

 

I would love to comment on this thread, but the subject matter is so large and complex it would take volumes. I don't know what the research says, but to understand this topic, I think you have to factor in domestication, the breed of dog and it's traits, the pack structures, nuture vs nature, and environment.
I will say this....there are some dominant dogs that will always try to be alpha in their environment....very few of them....there are also opportunistic dogs that aren't dominant by nature, but rather through fortune of inept owner/handler. Most dogs are content to be dogs that are submissive to the source of their food and shelter, unless a stronger drive like sex drive or survival drive is activated, than a very few dogs will disregard the submissive role within their family/pack.
This is much too general and simplistic to explain individual dogs, but my observations after many years of training and over a thousand dogs worked with.

 

I dunno Cliff. That was a pretty good comment by itself.

 

What is NILIF ?