Maybe the key to that statement is "well regarded on this forum". Most any breeder I trust uses females with a minimum of IPO 1.

 

Maybe the key to that statement is "well regarded on this forum".

Must be a blue moon, I'm agreeing with Blitzkrieg.

There are a couple of breeders from whom I would consider a puppy out of an untitled female, if I had seen other progeny firsthand and had discussed the breeder's reasons for using that particular female and had a lot of trust in the breeder's integrity and ability to accurately evaluate their dogs.

I mean, it does happen that a dog gets injured right before going for a title and has to be pulled from competition, and then a great stud becomes available, and the stars just align in such a fashion that the female gets bred without some letters after her name. So in and of itself it would not necessarily put me off, assuming (again) that I had a lot of faith in the breeder's program and liked the other dogs I had seen from them and trusted their judgment in this one exceptional instance.

...but for the most part, and certainly for anyone who makes a regular practice of breeding untitled animals of whatever gender, that's just not a program that I personally would consider buying a puppy from at this point in my life.

 

Yes it's possible the websites are not up to date. Or it's possible that there are "well regarded" breeders on this forum that aren't all they are made out to be.

Why don't you ask the breeders directly what title are on their dogs?

 

I will definitely be asking directly, I just didn't want to appear accusatory or rude if there was something I wasn't understanding correctly.

 

The reason that it is done is twofold - the first reason they breed females that are not titled is because they don't have to title of female to breed them - the second reason is greed - whether it's right or wrong that's the decision of the purchaser, personally I don't want to pay $2500 for a dog.

There is no guarantee that you're going to get what you expect you're getting -titled or not elbows hips etc. it just an animal..

Two nuclear physicist's can easily have an autistic child - that's the way life is it's just not fair..

 

You have the choice to buy from whatever breeder...if they aren't titling their females and that is important to you, don't support them. Personally, I'd communicate with them and find out why a female they are breeding may not have titles.(if enough people question them, then go elsewhere it may encourage them to do something with their dogs!)

If I like the pedigree match, and see/like what the breeder has produced in the past, knowing they are doing it with program goals in mind, I wouldn't be put off by it. But I would only contact a breeder that is actually working their dogs, not one that buys titled dogs for their program.

 

Perhaps they come from a very solid pedigree.....

SuperG

 

I've discovered that people are very opinionated about which titles.

 

There are exceptions to every rule. Talk to the breeder about the dogs, see the untitled female working, or something like that.

 

IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.

It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.

 

Agreed

 

Remember too, that heat cycles play into trialing/showing,etc... Though many breeders still achieve goals/titles even so.

 

Ivan Balabanov- who I think many people greatly respect- breeds untitled females- some are titled, some aren't. I am familiar with many working malinois breeders who breed untitled females and produce top working dogs from these breedings. From what I've heard (correct me if I'm wrong David W), most of the United State's military and police dogs come from breeders in Europe who often breed untitled females.

Health checks are mandatory for me, titles are not. I evaluate a dog on a lot more than just a title. I know plenty of breeders who ship dogs to Europe/outside to get their IPO3 and that tells me these breeders might know less about how that dog actually works, than someone who has worked with the dog extensively but hasn't titled her for whatever reason.

 

But the buyer needs to understand the appropriateness or a breeder can just give them a song and dance. If the dog is never tested off their property or put thru some stress or pressure, how can the buyer decipher what is appropriate?
It is up to the buyer to do their research and know what the breeders focus and goals are in their program....what they've produced in the past and if those goals are being achieved. I have heard many excuses from breeders who are breeding dogs with the minimum or no titles. I'd rather not support those excuses and go with a breeder that is working, sweating and putting effort into their program to prove it.

 

But the buyer needs to understand the appropriateness or a breeder can just give them a song and dance.

yep

...and this is where I think the "well regarded on this forum" aspect throws up a red flag for me. There are several breeders where people have said nice things -- and sometimes some not-so-nice things -- about their dogs on this forum, but when I've had the opportunity to see dogs from their programs in person, reality did not always match the mental image I had conjured from reading stuff on the Internet.

You really have to look at who's giving recommendations and what their basis of knowledge is and whether that's somebody whose word you want to trust over the Internet. I know martemchik beats this drum constantly but it's with good reason: not all opinions are created equal.

Sooo for me it's the particular combination of no titles PLUS "well regarded on this forum" (as opposed to someone like Ivan B. where it would just be "well regarded on the planet Earth") that makes me a little uneasy.

Go see the dogs in person and ask some careful questions, that's all I can say.

 

I think the Malinois/Dutchie community is different due to the bloodlines and the intensity of traits being expressed in the dogs (Cliff has talked about this before). They tend to line breed more and there are alot less people breeding them. Most people know who is who in that community in addition its a lot more common to breed the females untitled. In addition most of those breeders can provide vid of the females working.

In GSDs there are a few breeders I would trust if they said the female was good. However, all those breeders have their females titled so its a moot point.

 

The dam of my pup is untitled and the sire does psa so no titles. The breeder was a hobby breeder and could care less about titles. He actually hated schutzhund. I loved the pedigree and saw enough of the dogs working and how they interacted inside the house that I was sold. Titles are important but it doesn't always show the entire picture.

 

What does working PSA have to do with no titles?

There are PSA titles. It's a sport.

 

Should've been more clear. I was speaking about schutzhund titles since it is the test used for breed worthiness and all. Also the thing most people look for when looking at a pedigree. Psa is all bite work and control.

Schutzhund titles are the standard but I'd rather have a dog with psa titles. Just my opinion but I firmly believe a dog could get a schutzhund title but be too nervy to get psa.

 

I personally think there is a lot more to PSA than bitework and control. Do you have PSA experience?

David Winners

 

No. Just been to a couple training events and a trial. I think what you meant, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that there is no tracking.

I think PSA is more about pressure and distraction, for the dog and handler. JMHO

David Winners

 

A lot of times also, a female may be started in breeding while she is working on titles (or working certs). The more I learn, the more I realize it is about the dogs and the dogs behind the dogs being bred and not so much the particular paper attached to the dog.

A GOOD breeder may reject a Schutzhund trained dog over one without because the one without is simply a better dog. In recent years I have seen some very nice actual working GSDs compared to 10 years ago. I think the breeding of dogs for the military and police has helped a lot.

 

I think the money available from the military for good dogs over the last 10 years has driven some breeders for sure. They paid top dollar for a lot of dogs. Good point Nancy.

 

The breeding I just put a deposit down for has the male "Odin" without a title. I don't care. I've seen the dog. I know it's a great one. Titles aren't everything.

 

I guess I find it , oh whats the word?, closed minded? when anyone feels that if a dog doesn't have a schutz/IPO title its not worth breeding.

If that were the case, there would be far less really good dogs out there doing SAR, military, therapy, guide, police, and I guess the list could go on.

 

I wish this could be cut and pasted into the Staatsmacht, Gildaf thread

 

In East Germany prior to wall coming down, there were many females bred with just FH title( advanced tracking title) and a BH. It did not retard the development of their breeding German Shepherds. We have messed the breed up so much, that there is no way to know a good breeder/breeding without experience and knowledge. There are many soft marginal titled dogs that are going to pass there soft marginal genes and not the titles to the pups. There are many strong sound genetic specimens that because they do not have titles will never get bred to the better dogs so we can improve the breed. And lastly, there are many expert breeders that think the higher the titles the " better" this will be for mating with my dog.

 

I actually respect PSA and KNPV titles more then IPO.

 

I think to find out why people breed untitled females you would have to ask the people breeding them. Personally if I could I would breed my untitled female tomorrow and I would be quite happy if it was just a litter of one and I'd keep her/him.-I am not sure how people know how someone is breeding for money. It just seems like certain things are said over and over and if you say it enough its true-which maybe it is. Black and white. The good breeders are those who are titling their dogs and not doing it for money...My next dog will not be from someone advertising working homes only... I personally would like to see a breeder who has kept a line of females-to me that matters

 

Both of my male GSD have come from breeders that did not title their females in IPO. They have both been amazing dogs. It all comes down to trust and understanding what it is you want in a dog and what they are trying to accomplish with the breeding.

But I think this is harder for people without experience to do. Personally I like to see a good line of females that have been part of the breeding program for generations. But again, hard to distinguish without experience, from someone who breeds just to breed.


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I would have to know a breeder for YEARS and really consider them a close friend and someone I trust before I would purchase a puppy out of an untitled female. If its someone that I found on the internet, that had a bunch of people on a forum "vouching" for them, I still wouldn't trust them enough.

In the short time I've had with the breed, I've seen breeders basically start breeding off of reputation alone. They've completely switched lines, and somehow carried over their "knowledge/experience" with one line to the other line (and I'm talking about a huge shift from show to working). How can that happen? Reputation...that's it. And without knowing the person through more than just a few phone calls and emails...you have no idea why they earned that reputation.

The majority of the breeders I've seen use untitled females, will have tons of reasons to tell you why they do it, most of which boil down to them thinking they know better and are too lazy to actually throw a title on the dog. They know the dog is capable, based off of temperament, or pedigree, but they just don't want to take the time or money to title the female. They know people will buy their puppies anyways...