[wolfstraum]

As a breeder with a solid multigenerational program....I would find that attitude offensive.....and probably not want to pursue them as a home.....You don't know or understand the time, blood sweat and tears that go into producing a good line of dogs....the heartbreak when you ethically have to wash out a dog you love everything about that comes up with an issue - for example I had a lovely Pike daughter, Sch3 KKL, produce dwarf pups - around 8K down the tubes....that loss gets spread over the whole program - the litter cost does not stand alone.....

Yes - there is rip off pricing - often from those who have a revolving door and breed every female every heat without doing anything themselves with their breeding dogs IMO


Lee

 

[chimeric]

Lol...you've admitted to being a complete newbie to the game and yet you feel like you have a better grasp and understanding of what a puppy is worth than a breeder that has been doing it for years? That's kind of funny.

Someone with no experience titling/trialing/training/showing, is going to tell someone else that their dog is over priced? You have no idea what the costs are of producing a puppy and yet...you're the one telling a breeder it's overpriced?

Makes all the sense in the world...

Yeah, isn't that a bit odd?!

 

[chimeric]

And what specifically are you basing your pricing criteria on? Color? Health? Conformation? Titles? Level of competition? Previous offspring's ability and success? Temperament?

These aren't cars that are all the same coming off the assembly line so please be specific based on your current knowledge.

This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.

Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.

STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....

 

[martemchik]

This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.

Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.

STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....

Doesn't sting at all.

Just proves how little you understand and how little you're willing to learn.

Also makes absolutely zero sense to anyone that knows anything about working dogs, breeding dogs, and actually being involved with dogs beyond a "pet level."

 

[Girl_Loves_Hydraulics]

My phone was free and our vehicles have always been old, used ones (no auto-loans). Right now we both have 2004 models which have been the "newest" vehicles we've ever owned. Four years ago we had a 1994 Blazer and 1995 Dodge Caravan, lol. We drive them until they die and then slap a FOR SALE sticker on it and let someone take it for $500.

My dogs are much more important to me than our vehicles or our phones though so I'm willing to spend what I think gets me a good quality dog and supports the type of breeding I think will carry the breed forward.

I work in IT so I get this a lot with laptops. People will make blanket statements about how awful Dell is because they bought a $300 computer and it only lasted 1.5 years. The computer I'm typing on right now is 5 years old, I bought it for $1300 (which is still not insanely pricey!) and I have zero plans to replace it anytime soon. I've spent $200 on some upgrades and it works better than ALL of my other computers including my work desktop, Surface Pro 3 ($1500 work laptop/tablet), and 2 year old iMac. When it comes to computers, you get what you pay for. I use computers 9 hours a day for my job and then for my hobies when I am at home, so I take considerably more care purchasing a quality computer with all the specs I need than I would buying an old car that I am only in about 45 minutes a day.
http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Glad I am not the only one! This doesn't apply to dogs though, just inanimate objects lol

 

[Jax08]

This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.

Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.

STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....

Doesn't sting. I was curious to see what your answer was. Puppies are not cars. You are basing your criteria off of a single characteristic. That's not how it works. That's not how it should ever work. Good luck with your search. I can't recommend you to a single breeder. I would highly suggest you go find a club, meet the dogs and learn a bit more.

 

[wolfstraum]

This is gonna sting some, so don't take it to heart.

Buying a dog from a breeder is a lot like buying the perfect new car, in a specific price range of course.

STi vs EVO vs Golf R - 3 top picks in their league. Which is best? One can Have a better temperment than the other two (Golf R), one more aggressive (STi), one more heart healthy (EVO), one with more energy (EVO), one with a better color/paint (DBP>R), conformity (evo and sti look a like these days, so R by default), success (VW wins), previous offsprings (R, unless STi pre 2006).

Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek....

Ahhhh - but the red EVO = the silver EVO etc etc.....but this is NOT TRUE with dogs.....!!!!!

Even credentials are not comparable across the board.....Dog A's IPO3 doe not mean he is the same caliber as Dog B's even if they score the same... I would not buy a puppy for any price if Dog A is bred to Female A - but would drool over a puppy from Dog A and Female B.....there is SOOO much more to putting two dogs together and many people just breed titles and placements....Years ago I saw a dog who failed a big trial and I would loved to have used that dog on a specific female and you could not have paid me to use the more popular dog who was on the podium on that same (or really any of mine) female....there is so so so much more than the papers/scorebooks when planning a breeding...when you say that using the credentials to justify asking for a discount is your thought process, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of what goes into those credentials and a lack of respect for the breeder....

Lee

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Hmmm...appreciate the response Max.

My take, as a business owner:

I have to quote prices all the time for my business. If it's a complicated job I tell them I need to see the job first.

If they push wanting an answer over the phone** I give them a starting price with the emphasis that it is subject to change.

The price is not set in stone until they sign a contract. If at the time of signing a contract they argue any price that I feel is justified I don't mind explaining my reasoning. If they disagree with me after my explanation I'm o.k. with passing on their business. I recently walked away from a job because the people were being over bearing to the point I knew they weren't worth the aggravation. So it's also a good way of sorting out who you want to deal with and who you don't.

I don't worry about avoiding disagreements as much as I used to.

Also, I don't think the pricing is standardized as well. I see prices all over the place really?


(**if they are really obnoxious about it I quote a very, very high price. )

The reason I wouldn't say "my puppies start at X" is that then you'll have people expecting to pay X. When you tell them that this particular litter is X+Y, you'll have to go into an explanation of why you have justified Y. Many times, that justification will make absolutely zero sense to a new owner, and they might also think that the Y is justified. Most will also not care that the dog is VA rated, or an IPO3 dog, to those looking for pets...they don't care to pay extra because a breeder goes "above and beyond" the norm.

As a potential new owner, you can easily gain the knowledge and figure out the range you should expect to pay based on X,Y,Z. That range is pretty standardized across the country. So if you call a breeder, selling dogs that meet those criteria, knowing what they charge shouldn't be an issue. You should already expect a certain bottom of the range, and probably a top as well. This is where the "car metaphor" makes sense. If the price is outside that range, you should question why.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

:thumbup:

This is good advice.

Doesn't sting. I was curious to see what your answer was. Puppies are not cars. You are basing your criteria off of a single characteristic. That's not how it works. That's not how it should ever work. Good luck with your search. I can't recommend you to a single breeder. I would highly suggest you go find a club, meet the dogs and learn a bit more.

 

[creegh]

Oooh, me! If I see a dog, esp one that I feel should be priced at $2000, but quoted to me for 2500, I will ask, is that your best price? I could tear down their pup (via parents ratings, etc) to justify my price, but I don't like to do that and will only tick them off more than a simple, "is that your best price." I have come to dislike that question, so I will have to find an alternate method to bring down the price, if I want the dog, and feel it is overpriced. Lets not get into, what is overpriced to you may not be to me. Lots of people out the with lots of money to drop on a brand name asking price. I am not that rich, quite the contrary. :/

Bravo. You've been researching the breed how long? 5 minute expert.

That attitude is gross + you have champagne taste on an beer budget with the attitude of an entitled frat boy.

You want everything (and you know exactly what you're looking at right? You want it all AND the kitchen sink. And you can totally evaluate conformation/bloodlines/show ratings/breed surveys/IPO levels and scores/temperament etc. etc. etc. Better than the breeder who has years of time and money and training and spent hours soaking up as much knowledge as possible in order to make informed choices and breed a better and healthier dog with each successive generation). Oh please the puppy is NOT worth that much - you have to haggle.

You're going to have a very hard time getting a quality dog with that type of attitude.

I know people like you having been in horses my entire life. And the exact second the horse/puppy doesn't turn out EXACTLY the way it was SUPPOSED to you will jump to blame the breeder/person you bought it from, ignoring the fact that raising and handling and getting an animal to live up to its potential fall a lot on the shoulders of you. A good breeder will give you a GREAT foundation (and will always be at hand to be a mentor to you) you have to build upon the foundation. When you burn down the house, don't go blaming the breeder.

 

[rtdmmcintyre]

Price is based on multiple factors. expenses, is one factor. quality, is another factor. If the person makes you feel uncomfortable it is amazing how fast the price can climb.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Speaking of horses, having been involved more in the horse world since the 1970s, people are very upfront about the price of horses. There is often, not always, some haggling over price. This is true of colts and fillies too.

I get the part about not being obnoxious with a breeder about prices, politely asking after a ascertaining the breeder has a breeding you both feel is a good match shouldn't be a huge bad mark against a puppy buyer though.

FWIW before I got Ilda I was contacting WL breeders and after some discussion about goals and type of dogs they had I asked , nicely, "what are we looking at price wise?" They nicely replied $xxxx amount and they were all at or a bit south of $1500 at the time for puppies with parents that passed health tests, titled parents and so on. So I don't think they were upset that I asked because they didn't quote an outrageous price.

I think maybe it's a touchier subject on this public forum because then it's viewable for searches, forever more.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

I think my cap price would be at 1500 - 2000 not including shipping.
I would not mind paying that price for a pup at all,

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Prices have gone up on pups over the last few years. A respected breeder who is a member of this board *was* selling puppies that would pass the criteria discussed here and then some, WL, for $800. A breeder told me since 9/11 the demand has gone up. Made sense.

For grins and giggles I looked up some horses for sale ads, not much change in the prices, if anything somewhat depressed (for decent younger trail riding horses) was surprised.

 

[Kaimeju]

I don't like haggling over anything, though I will if I have to, and puppies are no exception. You can easily get a range that is reasonable from talking to people in the breed and looking at what litters you would be interested in have gone for. I'm not sure if it was on this forum, but someone sent a breeder an email asking for an itemized breakdown of the price because they felt it was too high. This attitude doesn't make sense to me. The fiscal costs of planning and producing a litter tell you nothing about the breeder's knowledge, their years of work, or how well the dogs they breed will fit in your home. The quality of a puppy can't really be described by items on a list.

If I'm going to a breeder I really like, I'm also not going to treat them like a car salesperson who is trying to rip me off. One of the reasons to go to a good breeder for a pet is because they care about their pups once they leave. If you trust that they are going to be there for you and your pup, why would you suspect they are trying to cheat you? Just research a price range you think is fair and look at breeders who fall into it, is my thought.

 

[WesS]

Let them charge what they want. But they must be able to answer why. And justify. Esp. if they have not built up a reputation. There is no justification for a new breeder to charge premium prices with no reputation that he has produces quality dogs in the past.

Selling good quality dogs is like anything. Do it consistently with happy customers and have a good reputation, and build your 'brand' and charge what you like. People will always buy from you. To the new guys on the block. If they are overbearing, and cant justify prices (and yes you should ask why certain puppies are so expensive, and weather he is putting in the work and not just charging).

Just so you guys get an idea. Ivan Balabanov (Multiple World champion) is selling his Belgian Malinois puppies from his breeding program, generally at a standard $2000 fee. Now this is a breeding program nobody could question. Then comes the new guy. And asks for the same price on his first litter? Just saying.

 

[misslesleedavis1]

Prices have gone up on pups over the last few years. A respected breeder who is a member of this board *was* selling puppies that would pass the criteria discussed here and then some, WL, for $800. A breeder told me since 9/11 the demand has gone up. Made sense.

For grins and giggles I looked up some horses for sale ads, not much change in the prices, if anything somewhat depressed (for decent younger trail riding horses) was surprised.

My mother bought me a horse when I was young.
She paid 2500.00 for a 18 year old beat up trail horse with hoof and neck fungus just to get him out of there and well..I loved him.
Best horse ever.
Lol my friend is very into horses, Jodi , very well known in the community and in some states.

 

[Maxx]

I'm on a local FB with over 1000 members, all breeds but basically the same thing.

On the point about paying the same for lesser quality dogs.

I am all for due diligence, but in fairness to puppy buyers, in the U.S. because there aren't minimum standards for breeding (beyond proof of parentage) it sets up the buyers to fail and breeders who work hard to not be recognized. This allows the BYBs to ride in on their coat tails.

This is where I part ways with Max a bit. There's a difference between free market efficiency and free for all chaos.

In the U.S. the puppy market is more chaotic then efficient.

There's never going to be a 'perfect' market, anywhere, including Germany BUT there is a better way that levels the field for sellers and buyers, somewhat at least.

This problem is in part due to the 'fur baby' people as well as organizations like the AKC not doing their part to educate and set standards.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me but I hope that someone will realize the point I try to make.

I understand breeders are trying to do their best for the breed and appreciate their dedication and devotion to the breed of dog they have. Also, I acknowledge the expenses in doing health tests, feeding and general care for the dogs/puppies. But, the fact is, not everyone can afford $1500+ dogs so it seems purebreed dogs are for the wealthy or affluent - to me, anyway.

Is it not common sense that dogs from a dedicated and thorough purebred breeder would be the best choice for enhancing the chances of having a healthy puppy/dog with a good temperament? But, given 6 - 8 pups per litter, there are still mostly people who buy BYB animals. So, they either A) don't know where to buy these purebred dogs from good breeders or B) they cannot afford it and thus, go to shelters, rescues or BYBs.

BYBs don't have the same devotion/dedication and/or the funds to do all the tests AND there are no regulations from the government. You don't even need to have the same breed (lots of 'mixes' with BYB). But, these dogs are cheaper so you get endless numbers of BYBs and imho, this is where the problem is. Unfortunately, some people only have $500 (if that) - and maybe a bit more (sometimes) so where else do they go? Do breeders sell via finance or deposit plus payments? No. So, the BYBs benefit based on prices of the dogs. I'm sure everyone appreciates all the health tests but not everyone has extra $$ but should that stop them from having a pet if they're a good owner?

I also notice some classifieds with ads for dogs/puppies at prices almost or exactly at those of a good breeder. Not sure how they sell their animals but it seems to suggest that the situation is out of control (imho). No government influence or regulation means that there's more shelter and rescue dogs.

I'm not sure what else to say. That's my two cents, I guess.

 

[Maxx]

There are several breeders I have talked to who take payments.

Coming from a horse breeding background I have done payments on several horses I owned or bred - if the home was a good match I was more than happy to work out payment plans so they could afford one of my horses.

Most breeders are pretty flexible when it comes to how you pay. I know a lot of my show and performance breeding friends in various breeds will do anything from outright give a puppy to a good home to discount heavily to the right situation.

But it also depends on how you approach them and the relationship you have with them.

In the horse world I'm much more likely to work out a payment option, discuss pricing with someone who approaches me professionally and shows an interest in promoting my ponies (either they have good show experience, work with a good trainer etc) over someone who right off the bat with barely a hello goes HOW NEGOTIABLE IS YOUR PRICE? I WANT A DISCOUNT! I CAN PROMISE A GOOD HOME.

Awesome. A good home is the bare minimum of my requirements thanks.

Of course. I would be shocked to find any breeder around here that would do that - I don't even bother to ask. You must be in the U.S? I don't think Canadian (purebred dog) breeders would to that and I've never heard of it. Why would they want to wait for their payments on one puppy? Maybe, some horse breeders do it since a horse is so expensive?

I wouldn't want to 'negotiate price.' I understand some posters are saying to save up. It's a fair point. I suppose, I would really prefer a purebred dog that has had the health tests since at least there is some background info on the dog and less chances for health problems down the road? (that is the idea). But, I'm not sure 'saving' vs. 'outright buying' is any different. Something always comes up but payments always seem like a better situation.

I guess I could try saving - at least, if I had a 'deposit' - it would be something.

 

[creegh]

Of course. I would be shocked to find any breeder around here that would do that - I don't even bother to ask. You must be in the U.S? I don't think Canadian (purebred dog) breeders would to that and I've never heard of it. Why would they want to wait for their payments on one puppy? Maybe, some horse breeders do it since a horse is so expensive?

I wouldn't want to 'negotiate price.' I understand some posters are saying to save up. It's a fair point. I suppose, I would really prefer a purebred dog that has had the health tests since at least there is some background info on the dog and less chances for health problems down the road? (that is the idea). But, I'm not sure 'saving' vs. 'outright buying' is any different. Something always comes up but payments always seem like a better situation.

I guess I could try saving - at least, if I had a 'deposit' - it would be something.

Yes. I am in the US.

But the matter still stands. You might be surprised at how flexible breeders are willing to be for the right situation.

Most breeders are not 'wealthy' and are not breeding for the 'wealthy' many got their starts because someone trusted in them and saw the devotion they had toward the dogs and breeds and took a chance on them. If you approach it the right way and are willing to build a relationship with the breeder, you might find yourself in a very workable situation.

(I've seen various people I know who have dogs of various breeds do things like this. It's not as rare as you might think actually).

And I have done payment plans and options on horses of various budgets - some that cost less than a well-bred puppy from health tested and titled parents all the way up to a pony costing 10K++.

Currently I'm working out one such deal with a person who doesn't have that much to spend but I couldn't have dreamed of a better home and situation for the horse I have - I want her to have this horse. I fully believe she is *meant* to have this horse. Together they will be a force to be reckoned with. We will make it work so that she will end up with that horse.