[onyx'girl]

oh you would ask !

I had seen Fren Kateko before on a Mike Diehl site . She stuck out in my memory because her structure was very similar to that in the American show ring - yet is Czech lines Fren Kateko and one of her youngsters Chilli z Noveho Draka

I double checked , fact checked , because sometimes pictures on PDB don't match the pedigree .

*hint to those that like the American conformation -- you can get it without compromise *

you look at the titles - the multiple titles of the offspring (Heriet in mind) -- good solid dogs

I look at the youtube of her working --- I am surprised by the poor grip -- the wanting to play with the decoy
I don't see her taking it to the man . I don't see a desire to over power and control the man .
Of course there is little tension or pressure in the work of the decoy .

I do not know.

I don't comment on the Czech dogs . (except for Andy Maly Vah)

You don't look at names on a pedigree , you look into the entire families that they were incorporated into and try to see if some things were attempted to being kept in the fore .

In this pedigree I see strong dogs -- but maybe not active aggression .

Carmen, were you able to see Andy working? I never got the chance. But his videos were proof of who he was. I know Cliff knew him personally, just curious about your thoughts on Andy. I have an Andy son(8 years old today!), too bad Andy wasn't used more for breeding, and not many that he's produced have been used for breeding.

 

[carmspack]

I did not , but a breeding-friend did .

We bred a lot of dogs co-operatively for law enforcement . I chose Andy she checked him out .

my thoughts? pretty much the ideal balance -- tough , hard , resilient dog at work, biddable, great handler connection, aloof-social and could take every where

While waiting for the female to age-out and get her health checks - Andy , who was already with some age on him - passed before we could add his lines to ours.

you have an Andy son! tell me more.

 

[DutchKarin]

Carmen, I sent you a pedigree to your private email. Just watched this GSD work again yesterday. He is a phenom. Fabulous ranging, focus, capability everything about him is amazing in the field. I'm curious about your take on his pedigree. Karin

 

[onyx'girl]

I have Gideon vom Wildhaus and Castlemaid also has a littermate Gryffon. Both are very similar(as are all the female littermates) in their drives.
Hunt drive, fight drive yet strong bidability is consistent. Though they are not extreme with prey drive. Thinking dogs that discern and that came early on, higher in threshold even without the 'maturity'.

Size-wise, they are a bit on the high end of the standard, but not extreme. Yet they are very athletic. Three of the females excel in agility(MaggieRoseLee has female GloryB). If you go on this link, this is the litter/pedigree:

(Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)

Karlo(Gideon) is the only one in this litter to have reproduced, he has had one litter with a Hawks Hunt(Suzanne Clothier program) female. He did produce much like himself in most all of the pups.

One day, I'd love to have a pup out of him. The timing wasn't right to get one of his pups earlier as I'd just taken on the Gambit.

 

[mycobraracr]

Carmen, I sent you a pedigree to your private email. Just watched this GSD work again yesterday. He is a phenom. Fabulous ranging, focus, capability everything about him is amazing in the field. I'm curious about your take on his pedigree. Karin

I wanna see. If you would, send to me please.

 

[lhczth]

I saw Max (Art) a lot in training and know what sort of dog he was to handle and live with. He, himself, was a rather rank male with very good social aggression. That Sean was able to do as well as he did with him is testament to the training skills in our club. I have never seen anything by him, though we have a very nice young male by Dexter Eisernen Kreuz X a Max daughter in our club. I don't, though, know the dam's mother's pedigree. I would not say he has any social aggression, but he is not a sporty dog either. Good balance, very clear.

There is good aggression coming down through the mom. Dogs like Falk Haus Sindern, Arthus Lünsholz, Uran Kirschental, Sagus Busecker Schloß, and a bunch of Czech lines I don't know. There are also some more sporty type dogs. I see her as being pretty balanced, but that is a guess since I don't know the Czech dogs other than names.

Since social aggression is pretty rare at this point in our breed history, I agree with Cliff that it is a toss up if you would get it in this litter. I bred together two dogs that both had social aggression and got their very high fight drive and good aggression, but not the SA as seen in mom and dad.

 

[cliffson1]

Carmen and Lisa pretty much reflect what I read in this pedigree. I like the breeding for good strong working dogs.
As for Andy, yes I saw him work, I worked him myself, and I bred to him. He tended to produce oversized, large dogs with great athleticism and beyond all very superb temperament. I mean really solid temperament, all nine of my pups had. Not high natural aggression, but capable of moving into that realm with provocation just like Andy. I have trained an Andy daughter from another breeding that is CD, TDX, and unequivocally capable of being guide dog or service dog. Andy passed tremendous nerve through his dam, who was Nessie Ben Ju, who was litter brother to Norbo Ben Ju. Norbo is known as a source of tremendous nerves in his progeny. It's a shame this dog wasn't used by top sport people with their females, because he would give the nerve underpinnings to handle the high prey drives, and he gave good seriousness in relation to the drives.

 

[wolfstraum]

I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.


I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.

Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).

am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?


Lee

 

[cliffson1]

Lee, what/who is z sk dog?

 

[wolfstraum]

Kennel name shortcut! ze Stribrneho kamene


referring back to Lisa's post on Max/"Art"

 

[Espo4442]

@Espo4442..... I don't question what you say about Max and damline. Actually, I found that the dam line is capable of good aggression. But there are other dogs in the pedigree that factor in. I have had two dogs from Ellute in Grandfather role and neither had good aggression. Excellent nerve, great grips, and great prey but not what I consider active aggression. Actually, I like Max's dam line better than sire line for source of active aggression. I've had granddaughter of Beemoan Bee, another solid dog, but not active aggression. Grief, and Tito were good source, as could be Querry, but when you talk about Sandy/Sven, who I have had DDR dog linebred on Sindy, the active aggression was not there, nor was there hardness or dominance. I personally do not feel that Sven/Sindy were good source of dominance or active aggression, but there was one breeding with Sandy that produced crazy aggression to the point the breeding was forbidden to be repeated.
Look, I'm not saying you can't get active aggression from Max or the breeding, but I still would not go to that breeding in looking for active aggression because there is not the balance I would want to see long term. Having said that, I'm happy the breeding turned out well, as there are some good dogs in the pedigree.

Cliff no worries at all, and I agree with the initial analysis...tends to look very sporty and high drive. I believe the aggression and Anger the dog exibits in the blind comes from Bemoan mixed with your orry further strengthend by the mother line. Zybnek mentioned that Bara z oplovny was a very nice female. You were correct in speaking to the Sven/Sindy breeding I just had a typo lol!

 

[Espo4442]

I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me

I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.


I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.

Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).

am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?


Lee

Lee, not sure if it was directed towards me or but I wouldn't be offended either way ha! Always look forward to hearing perspectives on dogs and what they see. Good or bad there's always exceptions to every combo and sometimes people take things too personal. Anyway, yes very intersting how much foundation Bemoan had on sk dogs. I would venture to say that Auron is not an exception to the rule on these types of breedings...hard dogs, even harder headed sometimes but lots of dog. Great temperament when not working!

 

[lhczth]

We actually have/had several dogs from the ze Stribrneho kamene in the region. The one young male, his owner loves, because she described him as being like a Mal. Learns fast, very compliant, high pack drive, very high toy drive, clear and sound off the field. His dam is very popular and there have been quite a few pups imported out of her for sport by various males. So far, dogs are young, I do not see the SA that was found in Max, but then, as I said, it is pretty rare now. Maybe they have moved too far away from that foundation that produced Max.

The Dam:

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/107973/Una-ze-Stribrneho-kamene-CS

 

[lhczth]

BTW, not saying anything bad or negative. These are all very nice young dogs and puppies. Just different from Max.

 

[cliffson1]

Lisa, that pedigree you posted I would have read as producing exactly what you described....capable of very high end sport dogs through both sides.

 

[Espo4442]

Nick Vom Heiligenbosch, Yoshy Von Der Dollenweise

 

[EMH]

We actually have/had several dogs from the ze Stribrneho kamene in the region. The one young male, his owner loves, because she described him as being like a Mal. Learns fast, very compliant, high pack drive, very high toy drive, clear and sound off the field. His dam is very popular and there have been quite a few pups imported out of her for sport by various males. So far, dogs are young, I do not see the SA that was found in Max, but then, as I said, it is pretty rare now. Maybe they have moved too far away from that foundation that produced Max.

The Dam:

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/107973/Una-ze-Stribrneho-kamene-CS

This dog has lines in common with mine!

This is a good thread, I've enjoyed reading it. :wink2:

 

[mycobraracr]

There is definitely a difference in active aggression/fight drive and reactive aggression/defense. Seeing a video could be helpful.

For sake of discusion, what do you guys see in this video? Not just you Lisa, but everyone. Pedigree for reference. Ivisaruk River vom Lytle

 

[carmspack]

oh boy , not much video to go by -

from the little bit shown - a dog that is stressed , reactive "defensive" aggression .

close your eyes and listen .

 

[Sunsilver]

Don't have time to read whole thread - will catch up later - but is the Orry being referred to Orry von der Kine, or the Italian Orry?

Orry (IT) CMKU 46238,