[wolfstraum]

study the pedigrees

study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection

look at Kutter vom Landesberg

(look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern

study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!

understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.

People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental


most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same

Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.

awwww Kutter! Had planned a breeding to him with Csabre but snowstorms and travel screwed me up....

I think the strength in my female family is directly tied to the strong influence of Ex/Bernd etc behind Kira Frolich Haus.....I know most did not like her sire, but the the breeding worked well and has continued through 3 more generations consistantly....


Lee

 

[Julian G]

awwww Kutter! Had planned a breeding to him with Csabre but snowstorms and travel screwed me up....

I think the strength in my female family is directly tied to the strong influence of Ex/Bernd etc behind Kira Frolich Haus.....I know most did not like her sire, but the the breeding worked well and has continued through 3 more generations consistantly....


Lee

You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.

 

[Steve Strom]

You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.

I don't honestly think its that cut and dried. There's good dogs in both and there's crap dogs in both. Dogs that can do both or wash out from one and go to the other. A good dog is a good dog, and that's what everyone is looking for. I don't know if you've spent any time yet looking at some of the dogs pedigree's that were linked. If you do, post what you've found and thought. I tend to just accept dogs beyond a certain point back in generations were good if they were looked at that way then. Maybe its because I don't have an interest in breeding, but I've never really been able to follow a whole lot going from the past to the current on pedigrees. I do better going back from current and being able to see certain dogs that come up more often in so many pedigrees.

I tend to focus on the sire/dam and a couple generations back to see more of whats been maintained as far as working or sport and just take the breeders word for the older dogs. Maybe even just laziness on my part, but trying to figure out how the dog of 30yrs ago is really that critical after so many breedings and crosses of all those different combinations, I'll just go along with it.

 

[carmspack]

yes Kutter ----

got him locked away -- in a young female

breeding goes back to one of my females which had
Dix Maineiche x Racker X Bernd (droll vd schopf)

to Kilo (Bernd x Ingo) X Linda (Bernd x Ex)

Asko Schloss Zweibruggen (Racker and Vefa Kirschental )
and Busecker Schloss and old Bungalow.

plans for the future

 

[carmspack]

there were two ways the OP's question could have been answered.

one would have lead to - where can I find , where can I buy "this" type

the other leads to how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future

so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes.

no one buying a dog for end user work-use will dissect a pedigree or care where it came from.
all they care about is what can this dog do for me . end of story.

unless breeders pay attention to and understand the genetics then these types of dogs will fade away.

 

[carmspack]

"how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future
so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes."

so I was thinking on Antverpa and how significant an impact they had on hard , emotionally durable dogs --

I thought of another line that should be focused on and that is Nessel Antverpa --

the ladies at von der Polizei , a breeding program that was very consistent in producing a legacy of working LE
dogs -- foundation was Nessel Antverpa.

ms wolstraum , I think you did well by Nessel.

I did well with Nessel through his daughter Queenie .

Carmspack Alza

which developed into this http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1923316-carmspack-stark
now 8 years later happily retired http://www.eriecoblotter.com/single....com/single-post/2016/09/16/Happy-Retirement-Officer-Howe-K9-Stark---Buffalo-PD

there was consistency -- basically all the males went to work - except for Mathias who I kept back and a female that went to TD

 

[wolfstraum]

You know, the more I think about it, I think a "serious" line is one proven to produce successful military and LE dogs. Not just sport.

My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....

K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.

Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.


Lee

 

[Julian G]

My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....

K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.

Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.


Lee

I would love to see the pedigrees and more details about your dogs but your site doesn't appear to have been updated since 2011 :frown2:

 

[holland]

My K litter was one I feel was super consistent, and very workable....yet all stable companion dogs......my male Komet was started in protection by a former K9 officer/mondio ring trainer, in a group that was mostly LE K9 guys - to a one, they pronounced him a LEK9 not an IPO sport dog....I turned down offer after offer to place him in a department....I then was able to let a friend take him for training....the friend is very experienced in IPO (won USCA National/HOT National/3 x WUSV/1x FCI) and titling....was told he was top level competition capable...life keeps getting in the way of him competing unfortunately....but the dog is a super tempered house dog, good with kids, small dogs, cats.....

K litter's dam was from my C litter, whose dam was by a LE K9, and the litter produced a LE dual purpose K9 who was also certified wilderness SAR along with patrol and narcotics.

Serious does not preclude sport or companionship....Serious is what the breed is supposed to be along with stable and versatile.


Lee

There are a number of Tiekerhook (can't spell) dogs in the pedigree and Orry V Antverpa-also Condon An sat--
have seen a number of dogs I like with Condon in the pedigree

 

[wolfstraum]

My L's, another generation along, are sired by a dog linebred on Cordan An Sat - another very serious dog - sire is an active SAR dog, one girl is SAR adn the other doing IPO, but again, a serious dog.


Lee

 

[wolfstraum]

I would love to see the pedigrees and more details about your dogs but your site doesn't appear to have been updated since 2011 :frown2:

3 computers, 2 operating systems ago!!! and can't get into the files on the host site.....


K, L and N litters on PDB - the J and M are different families.....M female related to C/I/K/L/N via Xito Maineiche - but not through female lines


Lee

 

[astrovan2487]

Julian here is pedigree info for some of the dogs Lee is talking about,
Komet von Wolfstraum
Csabre von Wolfstraum
My pup is out of Kira von Wolfstraum, very nice female, has an HGH title. I see her brother Kougar very often at club, really like this dog, intense in protection, working on getting his IPO2.

 

[Blitzkrieg1]

Sid v haus Pixner...period

 

[cloudpump]

Sid v haus Pixner...period

What do you like about him?

 

[lhczth]

For active aggression and fight drive, Iko, Jenni and Jalk Lindenhalle. The latter two were different dogs than their brother Jago and produced differently. Ernst Weinberblick (a Lewis Malatesta son). Matsch Bungalow, Ira Körbelbach, Arek Stoffelblick.

A very strong up and coming dog with excellent aggression is: Gazze von der kleinen Birke

 

[lhczth]

I have had different experiences with Sid than Blitz. Except for one dog, most were not serious dogs and these were all out of different females. These were all direct Sid sons and daughters. The one serious dog was out of a bitch that went back on Ira Körbelbach and Matsch Bungalow very close in the pedigree so I attribute his seriousness to the mother.

 

[cliffson1]

Lisa, your post on Jenni, Jalk is right on money from my perspective. Actually, all the dogs you named are excellent sources of aggression.
As for Sid, I also agree with you that a lot of what Sid produced depended on who he was bred to. I have also owned two Sid sons besides seeing other sons/daughters. The Sid son out of a Tom z PS daughter became highly acclaimed LE dog. The son out of an Ellute daughter was great sport candidate but not enough fight for LE work. Both had great nerve and big time grips, but one had good active aggression, while the other was a sleeve sucker. Both were nice dogs, neither were crap....but one fit this thread the other wouldn't.

 

[astrovan2487]

A few other's you might want to look into that have caught my attention have Sitz von der Hose in the pedigree. Also Yogy Policia Slovakia has produced 2 dual purpose K-9's in recent litters. Though I'm a bit biased…
Apollo Vom Solveig
Bishop von Ibso
Chapo von Ibso

 

[Julian G]

All of your responses are great. I contacted a few breeders, and only one of them out right said that a serious PPD must have social aggression.

 

[Deb]

Just curious, Julian. Is there a reason you need a PPD? I thought you wanted to do IPO?