[ayoitzrimz]

I'm having some difficulty teaching articles on the track.

Some background:
My dog is 18 months old and has been tracking since 10 weeks (well, tracking meaning the usual tracking progression).

He's good with corners, serpentines, and the food rewards are done randomly now (sometimes every step, sometimes every 3 steps, 5 steps, sometimes in bunches, etc).

He's a little fast, but we are working on it.

Overall, he enjoys tracking and does not give up on the track or get too stressed - I put as little stress as possible on him and haven't had any problems with motivation so far.

As far as articles - We started by placing the article on a small Tupperware container with food in the container at the end of the track (key phrase I guess would be that we introduced articles on the track). I would have him platz by command and then open the container and let him have the food and end the tracking. Eventually he would platz by himself when reaching the end.

The problem is since I removed the container. He sees the article and I tell him "platz" and he lays down. Then I feed him from my hand by dropping the food on the article and on the ground where the article was after I pick it up. But he won't platz until I tell him. I'm afraid he's not making the association between the article and the command.

I was wondering what I can do and if I can have some advice on techniques to teach article indication. I read some people like to work articles away from the track and use more compulsion but I don't know how to do it and don't want to mess anything up with tracking.

Can someone give me some advice on how to teach article indication?

Thanks in advance!

 

[holland]

Have you tried teaching the article off the track- I did it using a clicker-not sure if it helps to teach it off the track but it is something that you could try

 

[Chris Wild]

Since he will auto down for a tupperware at the end of the track, you could try using that association to help him make the leap to understanding articles by initially using the same little tupperware as an article on the track itself, not just at the end. Couple tracks with little tupperwares of jackpots on the track so he learns that they don't only happen at the very end. Then put an article on top of the tupperware to associate those two together, then fade the tupperware.

Personally I've not found with my dogs that teaching articles on the track itself works. Not just the occasional article on a regular track any way like some people do. In big part that's because I don't track as much as I should so they just aren't getting enough repetition to make the association.

I know some people have good luck teaching articles completely separate from tracking. Often using markers/clickers and just randomly tossing out articles and having the dog indicate them and get rewarded for doing so. I tried that with one dog and didn't care for the results. I didn't find that it translated to articles on a track very well and also that it made him too aware of items near the track and for a long while was too willing to leave the track to check out, and possibly indicate, items off the track. Which seemed like a natural, but undesireable, by product of a dog learning to indicate things randomly tossed about on the ground. But I know other people who have great success with this method. Just isn't for me.

I've had the most success teaching articles using article tracks. It doesn't completely divorce articles from tracking like the off the track method does, but allows me to get in a lot more repetition than just teaching them on the track, without really disturbing or interfering with the rest of tracking training.

I'll lay a short, heavily laid, simple track with 10-15 articles on it, spaced 15-20 paces apart. Usually I put a couple pieces of food on top of each article to make sure the dog stops and gets the nose down there to the article. But it depends on the dog really. Then I help the dog to down at each article and praise and treat lavishly when they do. Doing it this way has worked well for me for multiple dogs. I'm able to get in lot more repetitions in a shorter period of time (compared to just doing them on the track) and that seems to really speed up the dog making the connection that the article is essentially a substitute for the down command. I don't use any compulsion for this, just halt the dog with the line so they can't ignore or move past the article. When doing article tracks I don't care about how the dog actually tracks in between articles and don't focus on that. I continue working regular tracking but keep them separate, not in the same session.

Then once the dog really understands articles on those article tracks, I go back to putting articles on the track and then it tends to take only one or two simple reminders for the dog to start indicating articles on real tracks as well as he did on the article tracks.

 

[ayoitzrimz]

Since he will auto down for a tupperware at the end of the track, you could try using that association to help him make the leap to understanding articles by initially using the same little tupperware as an article on the track itself, not just at the end. Couple tracks with little tupperwares of jackpots on the track so he learns that they don't only happen at the very end. Then put an article on top of the tupperware to associate those two together, then fade the tupperware.

Personally I've not found with my dogs that teaching articles on the track itself works well. In big part that's because I don't track as much as I should so they just aren't getting enough repetition to make the association.

I know some people have good luck teaching articles completely separate from tracking. Often using markers/clickers and just randomly tossing out articles and having the dog indicate them and get rewarded for doing so. I tried that with one dog and didn't care for the results. I didn't find that it translated to articles on a track very well and also that it made him too aware of items near the track and for a long while was too willing to leave the track to check out, and possibly indicate, items off the track. Which seemed like a natural, but undesireable, by product of a dog learning to indicate things randomly tossed about on the ground. But I know other people who have great success with this method. Just isn't for me.

I've had the most success teaching articles using article tracks. It doesn't completely divorce articles from tracking like the off the track method does, but allows me to get in a lot more repetition than just teaching them on the track, without really disturbing or interfering with the rest of tracking training.

I'll lay a short, heavily laid, simple track with 10-15 articles on it, spaced 15-20 paces apart. Usually I put a couple pieces of food on top of each article to make sure the dog stops and gets the nose down there to the article. But it depends on the dog really. Then I help the dog to down at each article and praise and treat lavishly when they do. Doing it this way has worked well for me for multiple dogs. I'm able to get in lot more repetitions in a shorter period of time (compared to just doing them on the track) and that seems to really speed up the dog making the connection that the article is essentially a substitute for the down command. I don't use any compulsion for this, just halt the dog with the line so they can't ignore or move past the article. When doing article tracks I don't care about how the dog actually tracks in between articles and don't focus on that. I continue working regular tracking but keep them separate, not in the same session.

Then once the dog really understands articles on those article tracks, I go back to putting articles on the track and then it tends to take only one or two simple reminders for the dog to start indicating articles on real tracks as well as he did on the article tracks.

That bolded section is exactly the association I'd like my dog to make... Chris, do you give a command to platz in the beginning or do you just stop the dog from advancing and hope that he gives you the behavior (downing at the article) himself?

 

[cliffson1]

I agree with Holland and teach the articles off the track and then reintroduce back to track.

 

[Chris Wild]

That bolded section is exactly the association I'd like my dog to make... Chris, do you give a command to platz in the beginning or do you just stop the dog from advancing and hope that he gives you the behavior (downing at the article) himself?

The dog can't know what I want if I don't tell him, so at first I always say platz as the dog's nose hits the article. Usually doesn't seem to take long before the dog starts platzing as soon as the nose hits the article, without the verbal command. Might still need a slight pop for a while as a reminder, but not for very long (dog is on a fursaver, not a pinch, so it's just a reminder not a correction). I'm always right up with my dog when doing article tracks, not way back on the line, so I can see the article and get my timing right for the command, and reward the dog right away.

 

[GSDElsa]

I don't track currently as I'm focusing on air-scent (SAR), but I've been seeing a lot of dogs learn tracking ropes recently!

They have all learned the article independently of the track and it seems to be working very well for all of them.

I'm fairly inexperienced using the table for tracking and have only seen it used with some amount of compulsion, but it seems to me that it would be fairly easy to incorporate teaching the article on the table only using shaping/clicker.

An idea from someone who has only used the table for non-tracking related things....

 

[Chris Wild]

I have never heard of a table in conjunction with tracking training...:thinking:

 

[lhczth]

A long table can be used to teach the articles (puts the dog at a better height for the handler), but I know it is used more to teach the such-platz.

I teach articles on the track. I have never had luck teaching them off of the track. I will lay a short track, put out 4-5 LARGE (4X4) articles with food on top of them. The food stops my dog, I help him into a down with light line pressure and my voice, then drop food on the articles while praising, show the dog the article, praise more food, pick up article, more food, then point to the ground and restart them. Eventually the dog will down on his own at which point I remove the food. Now, after saying this, I did remove the food much sooner for Deja and just helped her at each article. This made FAR more sense to her and she is now downing on articles on her own. I am now doing the same with Donovan. Of course they get the wonderful praise and treats dropped on the article, I pick up the article to show the "judge" they get more praise and food and then we restart.

Suffice it to say, you MUST know where your articles are located at all times.

 

[Chris Wild]

Ah, the such-platz table thingy. Ok, now I know what you mean.

 

[ayoitzrimz]

I see both Chris and lhczth taught articles using a special (I dont know what to call it) article-tracks. I'll try it. I think the issue here might be that he's not getting enough repetitions if I simply end the track with an article (2-4 articles per week).

I'll try setting up an article-heavy simple track and will let you all know the progress!

Thanks everyone who chimed in on this topic...

 

[Chris Wild]

Yup, sounds like we pretty much do it the same way. I just tend to do more (10-15) in one shorter article track than what Lisa mentioned. But the handling is pretty much the same, and I also use large articles for this and don't switch to smaller ones until the dog is more proficient at articles. The key as Lisa mentioned is that you must know exactly where each article is so you can be consistent in the guidance and feedback you give the dog.

 

[GSDElsa]

Ah, the such-platz table thingy. Ok, now I know what you mean.

Haha yes that is what I meant. Sorry didn't mean to imply using round or square
Table...only so much typing I can do on my phone before it gets old.

I used the round table and only clicker to get more consistent barking for medos indication and it got me thinking of other ways to use it minus any compulsion. It worked really well for him with barking...only 2 sessions on it and it was night and day difference.

Not to get ot here sorry!

 

[lhczth]

I actually don't lay article tracks. I lay real tracks with articles on them. Once in a blue moon I might do a straight track with a bunch of articles, but I don't do this on a regular basis or as part of the learning process. I have found them to be counter productive with most of my dogs.

 

[JanaeUlva]

I had success teaching article indication off the track and using free shaping of the indication behavior since I want that behavior to occur with no cue from the start. It took a couple of minutes to shape a platz and nose rub on the article.

As background, Minka was taught to target stickies on a wall with her nose as a puppy and she seems to like to platz with her ball or whatever between her paws, naturally.

So when I laid the leather article down and sat quietly she laid down with it between her paws, mark, reward. She sniffed it, mark reward. I waited, she rubbed her nose across it, mark, reward. Did that a bit more and added a cue to swipe the article with her nose. I Was then able to lay a few articles in a line and she went to each one and by herself laid down with it between her paws and swiped it with her nose. Mark, reward. If she is already down and has indicated the article I can ask her to "show" and she will swipe the article with her nose. I wanted to add that this is a condensed version. I did start to get behaviors I didn't want like picking up the article, pawing the article and an occasional bark at me. A simple NRM of nope and waiting her out got her to a good consistent behavior of platz with a nose swipe.

Next I moved a single article to the end of a short track and she got to it but did not indicate it. I kept quiet and kept her from moving on via leash. The lightbulb went on and she platzed and swiped it with her nose, mark and big verbal praise with some food.

Just started this so I'll see how it continues to workout.

 

[carmspack]

teach indications independent of the track .
short finds , 10 to 20 feet , find , indicate, praise, repeat . You are teaching and rewarding the indication. I had to do this with a dog that was to trigger happy to get back on the track and go looking. Always accurate . just they wanted (SAR) a stronger longer indication for articles .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

[SchHGSD]

I teach articles off the track, but am quick to bring them on. One thing I do watch for, are the dogs that are a bit lazy. If you guide them through, with constant help and even corrections and then reward, they will continue to wait for you to show them every time.

Somewhere in the progression of teaching, they must start making the decision to down on their own, or else I don't reward with food.

 

[JanaeUlva]

I teach articles off the track, but am quick to bring them on.

agreed.

 

[ayoitzrimz]

Ok just to update everyone who's interested, we tried setting up short article-tracks. I've done this twice so far. What I did was the following:

1. scentpad heavily baited
2. Food every third step but 3 steps before an article food every step
3. Article with small amount of food on top of it (I'm a bit worried that he'll start nudging the article once I stop leaving food on it but hopefully that won't happen)
4. Food in every footstep 3 steps after the article
5. Repeat, with the last article on a scent-pad (the last article is the article we used with the tupper-ware container in the OP)


-- total of 4-5 articles, no turns no serpentines etc

So far so good, the food on the article makes him stop in good position so when I give the platz command he consistently platzes with the article between his paws. The second attempt (this morning) was better. First time I said such after the first article he got a little confused (we used to place the article at the end of the track) but he figured that part out quickly (i.e. continue tracking after the downing at the article). Of course, lots of praise and food rewards on the article, while picking up the article, on the spot where the article used to be, etc.

I'm hoping that by the end of next week I can wait him out until he platzes at the article, but I don't want to rush it so we'll see what happens.

How should I go about fading out the verbal command? I'm thinking of having the line taut (I stay close on the line and always know where the articles are) and just being a redwood when he is standing where the article is until he offers the behavior (platz) and if he doesn't offer it after a few seconds I'll help with the verbal cue.

 

[lhczth]

When my guys start downing before I say anything with only slight tension on the line then I remove the command. Usually before this point I have allowed the dog to make the attempt on his own and the command becomes just a reminder.

Wanted to add that with the two D's, I removed the food from the article before they were actually downing on their own. I have always waited, but this time I decided to try something different and I found the understanding came more quickly.