Car2ner, yes, i think there's such a thing as a dog having too much drive and not enough street smarts.

I've heard of police dogs (malinois) being given a ball as a reward for a find, while training in a multi-story building that was built especially for police and fire department exercises, so there was no glass in the windows, and some of the openings were right at floor level.

If the ball rolled out of one of the openings, some of the dogs would follow it - to their deaths!

Back when German shepherds were the #1 choice for Seeing Eye dogs, I remember someone asking one of the trainers why they were the best choice. The trainer responded, "If you were using say, a standard poodle as a Seeing Eye dog, and the blind person came to an excavation in the sidewalk, and told the dog to go forward, the poodle would just jump down into the excavation. A German shepherd would not. It would have the sense to protect the blind person from falling into the hole."

It's my personal belief that this is tied to the German shepherd's herding instincts, and desire to protect its flock. And I think this sort of discernment is becoming harder and harder to find in our breed.

 

It?s an interesting point. And not only in the whip video posted m. IPO is a good sport and interesting to watch. it looks like they expect a home run everytime an not allowed to have an off day. I was surprised that many people who did ipo said they are not sure their dogs would protect them in real life so I could never understand this is that what the ipo sport is about trying to prove the dog is capable of protecting the owner or is the dog protecting itself or a game. I do understand the fact the dog has have enough prey /defensive drive and nerve to accomplish the protection phase in ipo. If a game then how is protection instincts tested since they put so much emphasis on this part of the sport. If just a game and the dog knew it was a just a game and not truly protecting its owner or itself why should the dog push past its self preservation instincts.

Yes as sunsilver posted I would think a degree of discernment is a good thing.

 

It?s an interesting point. IPO is a good sport and interesting to watch. it looks like they expect a home run everytime an not allowed to have an off day. I was surprised that many people who did ipo said they are not sure their dogs would protect them in real life so I could never understand this is that what the ipo sport is about trying to prove the dog is capable of protecting the owner or is the dog protecting itself or a game. I do understand the fact the dog has have enough prey /defensive drive and nerve to accomplish the protection phase in ipo. If a game then how is protection instincts tested since they put so much emphasis on this part of the sport. If just a game and the dog knew it was a just a game and not truly protecting its owner or itself why should the dog push past its self preservation instincts.

Yes as sunsilver posted I would think a degree of discernment is a good thing.

An IPO dog might not protect the owner if a real danger came up. The dog learns to bite a sleeve and wait for a cue from the handler. In real life there is no bite sleeve, hits will hurt more and punches and kicks come into play. Since the dogs aren't shown, taught or practice what to do in a situation like that they get confused and run back to the handler..."tell me what to do boss, this guy isn't playing by the rules". IPO was a test that dogs in Germany went through BEFORE breeding or training for other things.
I just wonder as some people breed our dogs to look flashy in a trial, is there a trade off? And Sunsilver brought up a good point. I have also heard about dogs so ball crazy they completely loose sight of their surroundings and jump off of a ledge, out a window or break their necks crashing into a tree.

 

I believe this all goes back to what Cliff has been harping on for years. If you breed a GSD specifically for ONE thing, in this case, high prey drive, so it can score well in IPO, the breed loses its balance. Dogs become good at IPO, but maybe not so good as house pets, guard dogs for the home, or medical or police service dogs.

As Cliff has often said, it used to be you could find dogs to perform all of these jobs IN THE SAME LITTER!

Some people still breed for this, but it's getting harder to find.

 

Yes, yes, and yes....lol
I have been harping on this for decades, I do believe color,specialty,andtype breeding are detrimental to the breed.
There are some people who still breed for utility but they are substantially less than sport, show, “Lines” breeders( DDR, Czech,WGWL,etc).
The irony is that utility and discernment is no longer a priority for most of these breeders, and these breeders are considered the reputable or experts in the breed....and forum readers have become the judges of the breed based on the “ Likes” of these breeders. ?

 

I have recently read an article about conditioning our k9 athletes. It told the story of a dog that came onto the field and hit the decoy like a bullet out of a gun. The dog did everything right and was allowed a second bite, just as exciting as the first. But on the way off the field the dog nearly passed out and died of over heating.
This dog must have crazy drive. Fascinating to watch perform but does he have no sense of self preservation? My long haired WGSL barely wants to do obedience when the humidity gets high. Actually that is pretty smart. He's not going to die of working too hard in the heat unless I push him too much. Are we breeding some of those smarts out of our dogs in favor of drive?

And after watching the video in the thread "too much whip" and seeing those dogs dodge the decoy I couldn't help but think "that is the smart thing to do". If a stranger came at me with a flying baton I think I'd back up and rethink the situation, too. Of course it is exciting to see a dog drive right past the threat and grab the sleeve but it that a sign of bravery in a dog or a lack of street smarts? Of course the IPO dogs, once they break the routine usually go back to the handler. They know that is a safe place. PP dogs are taught to duck and reengage and grab the arm with the weapon.

So the random thought it, in favor of drive and excitement and speed in our protection sports, are we really destroying some of the sense of self preservation and intelligence our dogs really need to have?

I'm going to take a broader view here, please bear with me.

A working dog and a human exist in partnership.

The dog should have the drive, the skill, the athleticism, the stamina, the nerve, the brain, to do what is asked, to the best of its ability. Otherwise, it isn't really a useful working dog.

The human needs to think and make choices about how to use the dog. The handler is in charge of assessing the risk level, and the dog has to trust the handler. Trust is mutual and trust is earned.

The human won't ask the dog to run too hard or too far in terrible heat, and afterward, the human provides water and cools down the dog that has worked hard. The human won't ask the dog to run down a bear, the human decides to call the dog off. The human won't ask the dog to give chase and run headfirst into a busy road, the human has to choose what risks are acceptable.

My BIL's hunting dog would hunt until she became physically incapable of going further. Extremely keen puppies are usually caught/picked up after a short lesson and calmly removed from livestock, they have so much drive and desire they could easily overwork themselves. These are useful dogs, working dogs, intelligent dogs. It's up to the handler to decide when to start and when to stop.

The working dog exists to support the endeavors of the handler.... otherwise, why use a dog?

When the human asks their own dog to do a trained task, under reasonable conditions, I'd consider it a fair test for a dog. Isn't that the point of any trial? Demonstrating ability to do a task for which the dog is trained.

 

You can condition intensity into or out of a dog as well to a large extent.

Conditioning wise I use frisbee fetch games to keep my dogs in shape. When I want high intensity out of a dog I will break a fetch session into rounds with recovery breaks in the middle similar to interval training track and field runners might do. Early on rounds might be super short with long breaks in between. The dog will leave it all out there and go full speed because rounds are short. Dog is expecting a sprint not a marathon so the dog paces appropriately. Once the expectation of "sprinting" is there for the dog then I start making the round go a little longer and some a little shorter. The dog still sprints because that's what was conditioned. Over time the rounds get longer with a few overly short ones thrown in to keep him from catching on. The general trend is rounds get longer and longer but it happens in a creeping way so that the dog doesn't notice. As his endurance builds next thing you know he's running sprint pace for long periods of time. Periods of time where if we started the rounds that long to begin with he'd have never chosen that pace or intensity to start with.

If I want slower longer paces I can throw the frisbee slower and higher and jog the dog under it as he's slowing to keep pace to catch. If I want faster I can throw it level with the ground and he's gotta blast out there to catch it before it hits the ground.

I can control pace and play with round or recovery length to condition my dog the way I want. During breaks I can use things like pools to insure safety and prevent overheating even in warmer weather. I watch closely and manage my dogs conditioning exactly like a track and field coach will watch his atheletes. I push, I build the dog, but ultimately I'm responsible for his safety.

 

I may be wrong, but I suppose police and military who use and depend on k9s basically expect those dogs to die in the line of duty if it comes to that. I can't imagine anybody would want either of those two types of dogs to be thinking of self preservation.

Not saying they WANT their dogs to die in the line of duty because I am sure none of them do and they would all try to backup their dog however they could. But if the worst thing happens no officer wants his dog to think "I can't win this fight, you're on your own dude"

For basically everyone else then yes I agree, I prefer a dog with more common sense. But even my old male GSD x who had more self preservation and more street smarts than any other dog I have ever known chased game back and collapsed from the heat. He wasn't particularly sensitive to heat either. To be fair it was probably not the actual chase that did him in, but running all the way back to me afterward in the FL heat. THEN he got e collar trained and that was that. in basically every other circumstance that dog was always very smart about his own safety. And he had lived as a stray for quite some time so if he had no sense he probably would not have survived.

 

there are many things physically which could have contributed to this .

Heart problem?

Metabolic problem , exercise induced collapse

the dog could have had an embolism

 

Of course self preservation being a different story in military and police dogs which can cost a life. I still imagine some may have off days. interesting how different a job from say a gsd leading the blind where some judgment is needed on the part of the dog which In turn saving the handlers life.

 

I build intensity and also endurance in my dogs when training for skijoring. I want them to go all out the entire time for roughly 5-6 km so we work up to that with interval training. Start real short and leave the dog wanting more, then work up to longer and longer sprints. Someone with the pointer-mixes bred to race don't have to do this because the dogs will literally run themselves to death.

My malinois won't run to utter exhaustion. If they get too hot, tired- they stop and take a break. If I really wanted them to continue to run all out and stop for nothing, I'd likely need to do what old-school mushers did and still do, which is mark that behavior (stopping or slowing) and then give them a beating er.. correction. For real, this is how it used (...still is by some) to be handled. Many books on training sled dogs explain exactly how to go about this.... now generally the dogs for sprinting are just genetically bred to run balls-to-wall until you stop them. Distance sled dogs (eg. Iditarod) that's a misty murky place and I've had first hand reports that endurance huskies are still trained using old-school ways.

Point is, some of this is breeding and some is conditioning. But like Jenny said, even if it's "just" sports we are selecting for dogs that perform at the top, so if self-preservation tends to be left behind, then the onus is on the handler to make sure the dog is safe. Or with military and police dogs, self-preservation could be a negative. We want the dog to go on command, danger or not.

I don't think this takes away self-preservation entirely. It's often a give and take scenario and up to the handlers to know their dogs and manage them accordingly.

 

For a German Shepherd, self preservation should include responding to a threat appropriately, not chickening out. This explains IPO protection very well.

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf

 

In IPO there is no real threat for the dog to drive past to get the sleeve, nor are street smarts needed to do something you have practiced 1000 times before you do it in public trial.The whole field is safe and what you see on the field is more the result of training than a spontaneous exhibit of fear, self preservation or bravery.( Not demeaning IPO, just clarifying what are most important ingredients in bitesports)

 

In IPO there is no real threat for the dog to drive past to get the sleeve

Ha, tell those dogs that.

 

What a great conversation!

I've never participated in IPO, but I have a HUGE amount of respect for the dogs and trainers that do, and I really love watching them perform! So with that in mind here's my 2 cents:

I think situational awareness/self preservation/street smarts are learned behaviors that most, if not all, IPO-titled dogs could learn easily. But it's like comparing apples to oranges. On the field (performing any task for which the dog has been trained) the dog should be willing to give its life performing that task. Any dog who pauses to think about self preservation or ponder the situation has either not been trained properly, or doesn't have the requisite nerve or intelligence to succeed as a working dog.

That being said, in terms of breeding, when that same dog is not performing a task for which it has been trained, like playing fetch; if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!

 

That being said, in terms of breeding,... if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!

ouch. Yeah, you have a point there...

 

That being said, in terms of breeding,... if it's unaware enough, or just too drivey, to notice its surroundings and so would jump out a window or off a ledge in pursuit of that ball, perhaps the breed overall would benefit if it were given that opportunity!

ouch. Yeah, you have a point there...

not sure how a dog willing to work tirelessly, having the drive to complete the task even to its own detriment would be doing the breed any favors by jumping out of a window. Unless were after more couch potatoes and even less capable working dogs than we already have.

To the topic in general self preservation in a working dog is bad. (In my opinion at least). You don't want the dog thinking oh I could get injured fighting this bad guy - better just let him go. Oh I could die hearding these sheep, oh well I'll go lay in the shade. Whoa that's a long way down! I'm not jumping outta this plane strapped to this guy! Etc. that drive to complete the task at hand, even to his own detriment, is what we're after and it's our job as handlers (as mentioned by other posters) to keep the dog as safe as possible. I don't think there's a such thing as too much drive - just the wrong owner/situation for that particular dog.

 

Dogs engaging in sport or real work can suffer heat stroke or even exercise induced exhaustion and it can be fatal. I've seen it happen to dogs in training with other agencies. Highly driven dogs do not want to stop, even when fatigued. I can tell some stories of Boru and purposely pre exhausting him before bite work and an "outing session. Even after 15 minutes of the "2 toy" game and doing 100 yard wind sprints till fatigued, he stayed on a tricep bite on a bite suit for 28 minutes, then 15 minutes, then 10 minutes then 1 minute before releasing voluntarily. He actually put a hole through the suit into the decoy's arm. The goal of the exercise was to get Boru to out on his own, no compulsion or corrections and eliminate some of the conflict he had when I first got him. It worked, the second set later in the day was 20 minutes, 10 minutes, 3 minutes and 1 minute. For a gassed dog to stay working and on a motionless bite for almost an hour is pretty remarkable. The point is drive can push dogs and people to their limits.

Think of the high school, college and even professional athletes that die from over exerting themselves practicing football on a hot day. Human athletes that should know better or see the signs also fall victim. I'm sure with the dogs and humans that there are other underlying medical issues that have gone unnoticed or undiagnosed. Plenty of runners drop dead while running, another reason I rarely run.

I also think the whole comparison of dogs jumping out of windows is a little silly. I know of GSD's and other breeds that have been hurt and killed this way. Dogs do not have the same depth perception that we do. The also do not think the way we do. It doesn't mean that it is a bad dog, crazy, too high drive, etc. It just means it may not be the right dog for JQP or a good service dog for a construction worker.

 

thanks folks, you have taken my random thought and turned it into a great discussion!

by the way,here is the article about being aware of the need to condition our dog to their environments.

https://loadoutroom.com/16533/k9-conditioning-preventing-injury-k9-athletes/

 

thank you Slamdunc.

Adding this , Nor do they have a equation with gun = danger , maybe fatality. They are either gun
sure -- the sonic noise clap -- or they are not .

Nor do they have a cause and effect when walking on ice , which is too thin and then
they end up in the drink ---- able to swim to safety , but having a THINKING knowledgeable
owner go wading in to frigid water to save the dog.

The dog swims to shore and the human dies. Every spring .

 

Adding this , Nor do they have a equation with gun = danger , maybe fatality. They are either gun
sure -- the sonic noise clap -- or they are not .

Makes me wonder though, do they not have a gun=pain equation? After they've been, God forbid, injured? And, if so, can they 'come back' from the injury --- mentally, I mean. I'm reminded of reports that I've read [somewhere] that some MWDs returned to the States with what can reasonably be considered analagous to PTSD. So, I'm wondering if a similar thing could happen with some LE K9s and, if so, how that would change the way we think about all of this --- if indeed it does.

BTW, dogs do have depth perception. It's just different than depth perception in humans (e.g., not as acute) but it's there. Otherwise, lots of dogs would be falling off walls, cliffs, etc., and most would be unable to do agility.

OT mulling: This interesting question of self-preservation (and thanks so much for raising it @car2ner) reminds me of an similar issue that always bothered me when I did jumpers in my hairy youth. In jumping competitions, the horse/rider combo is penalized more heavily for a horse's refusing a fence than it is for a horse's crashing through it. I understand the logic of that penalty system --- horse should be brave, commit to and jump the fence no matter how badly the rider has bungled things (e.g., insufficient speed/impulsion, sighting, striding, etc). But, it always seemed to me that it was smarter for the horse to refuse a fence to which it had been badly presented by the rider. After all, if things go badly enough both risk injury and death. Different species with different types of intelligence, but some of the risks and demands strike me as very similar.

Aly

 

I can tell some stories of Boru and purposely pre exhausting him before bite work and an "outing session. Even after 15 minutes of the "2 toy" game and doing 100 yard wind sprints till fatigued, he stayed on a tricep bite on a bite suit for 28 minutes, then 15 minutes, then 10 minutes then 1 minute before releasing voluntarily.

WOW! I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm truly in awe! @slamsunc what's the norm on this kind of tenacity or holding time? Or do many even measure that?

Boru is a super dog! You're a lucky man...and as others have pointed out, he's a lucky dog. Hats off to you both! Be safe, and thanks!

 

Thanks!
I have no idea what the average "hold" time on a bite is. I know some dogs will hold on for a long period when trying to "self out" the dog. 45 minutes is not unheard of, but I don't know of too many dogs that will dig deeper and remain as calm and bite as hard as he did for all those reps.

Boru is a piece of work and does some things incredibly well and other things are so so. He lives to hunt and apprehend, and if you are holding him back from that single purpose mission, well good luck and hold on. Half the day, I really love the dog. The other half of the day, well, I walk around shaking my head asking myself "what was I thinking?"

 

I have no qualms with Tim. I think he's a likeable and generally helpful guy. And in a Darwinian sense, sure more dogs would survive if they thought that way. More would survive and breed by being more fearful of a lot of things. But that's not helpful to the breed, even for the pet crowd.

 

More would survive and breed by being more fearful of a lot of things. But that's not helpful to the breed, even for the pet crowd.

Not quite. In the example, a dog high in self-preservation would notice that it's heading towards and possibly out of the open window of a 3 story building, say, and stop. That behavior reflects some degree of situational awareness, not fearfulness per se. And, whether one would choose to breed for that characteristic or its opposite (assuming that it's even possible) is a different issue altogether. As is whether that behavior, as described, would make for a suitable pet.

Aly

 

Just noticed that I shifted from 'high' to 'healthy' sense of self-preservation in the previous post. In my sleep-deprived state it was less to shift the markers, so to say, and more an attempt to clarify my own thinking. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Aly

 

Sort of a pun guys....but not entirely, on my part. The important distinction in my mind is whether or not the dog is performing a given command/directive that he's been trained for.

If so, dying in the pursuit of accomplishing that directive is the epitome of what a working dog should be.

But when operating outside of a given, and trained for, directive I would very much hope in any service - IPO, pet, LE, Military etc., that the dog would have the presence of mind NOT to follow a ball out a window.

When it comes to gunfire or other loud noises, I've been told that MOST dogs are 1 and done. That is, once a dog connects the real life consequences of the gunfire, for example, by either being wounded personally or having their partner wounded, they're pretty much done for service. Some very exceptional dogs do continue, but it's far from the norm...and again, that's as I understand it from what I've been told...no personal experience in this for me.

 

I think it depends on the dog. Obviously, a working police dog is going to go through some retraining to make sure it's still fit for service after being wounded in the line of duty. I think a well-bred police dog with good nerves would respond the same way my GSD did after being hit by a car 2 weeks ago.

It took me 20 minutes of desensitization in the Tim Horton's parking lot to get her comfortable with cars going past at close range again. And that was after suffering some pretty serious injuries - a partially collapsed lung and internal bleeding.

Her father is a police K9, which may explain why she responded so well to the desensitization.

 

I don?t know I would imagine you have to know your dog to determine this and not one thing. I had a dog as a kid he was hit by a car it was pretty bad he almost died. Broken ribs his sinus cavity mangled. In the hospital for two weeks i think more. He ran right out the door into the street at night Teddy - I remember when we brought him home he blew up like a water ballon with air they had to put him in a body cast for another two weeks. He was always fine with cars never had to be trained. He was not the bravest dog. I remember as kids having a snowball fight it got out of hand neighbors kids opens the door to my moms house throwing snowballs - teddy took off to hide. Lol! Poor boy but certain settings he looked like a brave soul. He was a such a great dog though and the reason why I am dog crazed!

 

I did a quick search this AM and found several articles on canine PTSD. They focus largely on PTSD in MWD, for obvious reasons, but all point to the likelihood of similar phenomena among LE canines. Sad (we ask so much of our 2 and 4-legged warriors), but interesting reading:


More Military Dogs Show Signs of Combat Stress - NYTimes.com

Four-Legged Warriors Show Signs Of PTSD : NPR

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder In Dogs - IVC Journal

https://veterinarypracticenews.com/can-dogs-suffer-from-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/

 

Darwin tried to explain changes which were adaptive to environment and allowed for success --- natural selection

When humans get involved it is an entirely different matter.

We choose for traits which may never ever be possible without great human involvement -- dogs with skulls so big that they can't have a natural birth -- dogs with nostrils almost behind the eyes -- dogs that remain perpectually infantile/juvenile -- dogs that will take on lions (Rhodesian Ridgeback) , willingly bring downed game to hand etc etc.

We choose to select for reduced avoidance . Belyaev has done this with his fox colony.

Self preservation ? what about all the threads we have with resource guarding -- food -- self preservation 101.

There it is at the most primal level . (let the dog eat in peace)

 

Aly-Yes those are great articles. I heard a story of a handler and her malinois searching for drugs at the airport they recovered many drugs over the years working at the local airport. There was a very heavy large box that was on a very high shelf and must of not been sitting right. The dog was searching and the box fell on the dog injuring it. After the dog healed from his injuries and returned to work the dog was worried about the boxes falling on him hindering his work and the handler had to retire him.

 

interesting articles Aly. I am not surprised that PTSD can exist in military and LE dogs. I hadn't really given it much thought with household pets.

 

Interesting stuff, no? Just as I think we tend to romanticize genetic influences, I also think that we tend to cast negative environmental impacts in somewhat extreme terms (e.g., systemic abuse, war, hurricanes). But, environmental influences can be and often are much more subtle and complicated, and timing is everything.

Aly