No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.

 

No. A dog associates something within 2-3 seconds. After that you are to late.

Sorry but I just have to disagree with that. At least with our dogs and friends dogs if the dog used the bathroom in the house and even if it is several hours later they do still associate that it is there mess and depending on the level of potty training that they werent suppose to use the bathroom there

 

No.

If I had a two year old who spilled juice on the carpet and I only happened to notice it 30 minutes later, I would never drag him over there point at/rub his nose in it/yell "NO BAD CHILD". He would never get the association. (I wouldn't punish him for spilling juice regardless).

That would be ridiculous. And I feel it's just as ridiculous for a dog to understand the association that I'm trying to convey, long after the incident has passed.

 

I don't punish for things after the fact. As far as how much memory they have I know they have some because Sasha definitely knows that men aren't to be trusted (because of her past) and she still believes when she does something "bad" (like throw up on the floor) that she's going to get punished. You can see it in her body language that she believes something bad is about to happen. So they obviously have some associative memory but as punishing them after they've done something bad and you didn't catch it...I don't know, so I don't punish for it.

 

I don't ever punish my dogs after the fact, if I don't catch them in the act there's nothing I can do about it.

I have noticed though if Odin happens to get into something while i'm gone (he seems to have a habit of taking dishes out of the sink if they're left) and I come home, instead of greeting me enthusiastically at the door he'll usually walk up to me and then either go in his crate or lay down in another room, even before I notice anything is out of place. I've never punished him for this, so I find it kinda amusing that he gives himself away beforehand.

 

Karlo will do similar "give it away" behavior. One of my dogs had diarrhea about a month ago for a couple days(from getting into the cat food) When I'd come home Karlo would jump up on me. He never does this unless he is anxious or stressed. I didn't reprimand any of the dogs for it, they knew I was dissapointed to have to clean that mess up, I'm sure. They do understand more than we give them credit for.

 

It seems to me that Ravyn tells on himself as soon as I walk in the door. I know if he's done something before I see it. He generally doesn't get "punished" for much of anything. I may however scold him once in a while after the fact.

 

Konotaski when did i ever say that we stuck there faces in the potty? all i said was that they associate they are suppose to go to the bathroom there and that is it is theirs.

 

If you have a multi- dog home you'll see your theory is wrong.

Because the dogs we have not had since puppies, we can tell which were "nose rubbed" and the like.
Someone else may have an accident (and with two dogs with spinal damage, it does happen) and the ones who were struck or nose-rubbed will start shaking because all they know is, "there's poop on the floor and when there's poop on the floor, I get in trouble!"

Therefore they do not "know it is theirs". They are afraid/guilty looking because they associate it with mad humans.

 

Read Temple Grandin's books for a great idea of how the "dog brain" works.
She proves that they do not "know they did bad".

"Animals in Translation" - I highly recommend it.

 

You sure she wasnt talking about cows? Wasnt that her expertise?

 

If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes.

All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.

Early in her building our trust to have free roam of the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.

When there is no mess she gets happy praises & lots of pets.

She began to know when she has been bad & when shes been good. If she is waiting by the door, tail wagging, she was good.

Dogs are smarter than most people give credit. They remember despite the belief of "live in the moment".

This method has worked for us because she is 100% reliable, has full run of the house.

Others here that would argue my method have dogs much older still being crated due to their untrustworthiness.

 

If you consider a strearn look "punishment" then I say yes.

All it takes for my dog to understand that I am displeased is a stearn look.

Early in her building our trust to have free roam if the house she made mistakes. Coming home to shredded newspaper or raiding bathroom trash cans for example. Finding the mess she left would prompt a stearn look & as the mess was picked up waived it in front of her so she understood why we are displeased.

This method has worked for us because she is 100% reliable, has full run of the house.

Others here that would argue my method have dogs much older still being crated due to their untrustworthiness.

Most dogs outgrow destruction once they get out of the teething phase.
Your dogs were reacting to the sound of your voice - they knew you were upset with them, but they didn't know why.

 

No, punishment needs to happen within 2 seconds.

If my dogs act "sorry" it's because they can tell I'm disappointed, not because they know why. If this was a "fact" then why does my dog Pan eat socks or panties any chance he gets, then act "sorry" and then do it again an hour later? Because he has no idea what he's doing is "wrong".

If I need to stop/prevent something from happening I use management (don't leave socks on the floor, put the dog behind a baby gate, give him something else he can chew on).

 

Not saying anyone had to agree with me but we do have a multi dog house and we can tell tell the difference. but thats us. everybody seriously enough with the assumptions when did i ever say we showed anger towards the dogs.

 

Body language gives you away. Even if you don't think you gave off any signals you were upset, they can tell.
Dogs go by body language, even the slightest change will indicate to them something is different/wrong.

 

Does this dog look guilty?

 

LOL Jane!

I don't think bathroom instances are good proof of this anyway. Dogs don't WANT to poop where they live, eat, and sleep. If they have to because they are sick, old, young, whatever sure they probably look upset at the owner for not giving them a better alternative!

 

I know body language is an important role i get that and know that all i am trying to say is that i think dogs associate longer than 2-3 seconds. How am i any different than most people on here. you cant say that if your dog s*&^t on the floor you would be happy about it and maybe in body langauge show some kind of being upset. Okay whatever. maybe I do have body language of being upset but i dont yell or hit my dog, just to make that clear. But I guess since I disagree with one of the regular posters that means I am a bad owner and also that I dont know anything so.

 

But I guess since I disagree with one of the regular posters that means I am a bad owner and also that I dont know anything so.

Are you referring to ME? :rofl: That's funny.

It's not the first time someone disagreed with me and won't be the last

...doesn't make you a bad owner.

However, in this case, it's not me you are disagreeing with...it is studies that show dogs associate things within 2-3 seconds. LOOK IT UP>>>>>

 

I believe we underestimate the memory of dogs. My dog has extraordinary memory of where he last saw a squirrel or rabbit or where he stashed a toy/bone among other things. I think that the reason not to punish after the fact is that the dog may not be able to make an association between the specific activity he/she is being reprimanded for and the reprimand if there is a long delay between the two. With that said, I am happy to say that I don't really have to worry about that as my dog is not destructive in the house and I have no worries leaving him un-crated.

 

....I think that the reason not to punish after the fact is that the dog may not be able to make an association between the specific activity he/she is being reprimanded for and the reprimand if there is a long delay between the two....

Agreed.

 

I would never rub my dogs face in their mess after the fact. I don't feel that teaches them anything. But as I have I said in previous posts on another thread, I do think that she knows when she's done wrong - beyond 2 or 3 seconds after the fact. Her behaviour changes and she acts sheepish. (Not to harp on about this, but what dog brings you toilet roll to clean up her mess?? I thought it was funny once off when it happened the first time. But she's done it several times since then. If she approaches me with her "I'm sorry" face on, and the loo roll in her mouth, I have to do a run through of the rooms she's been in to see where she made a mess. I mean, what dog does that that only has an association of wrongdoing for 2-3 seconds?)

Anyway, I don't know why she gives herself away, as I haven't ever scolded her for former accidents or anything else, so she hasn't got reason to react out of a negative experience. But this is honestly what she does. I for one find it amusing and educational! Some dogs are smarter than we give them credit for.

 

ok...here's an example...DD leaves her stuff everywhere...wherever she's standing she drops it. I come through the house, trip over the bookbag and swear because my toe now hurts and a teenager can't figure out to pick up after herself. Jax drops her head like I"ve yelled at her. NO association to her at all but she is so sensitive to my actions that she looks 'guilty'.

My sister has a lab puppy about 8 months old. She does not punish after the fact but will have a reaction to it. So he goes on the floor. She comes home and says "G dam it" in an aggravated tone and he heads for cover. NOW, she can whisper those words at random times and he heads for cover. She's never harmed him at all.

But both dogs are sensitive to OUR moods and body language whether it is related to them or not.

It has nothing to do with what they have done. It US.

 

Ah. See, I have no HBO (heard about an HBO movie). I did read the books and learned a ton about animal behavior...not specific to cows

 

Question....why does a dog acting sheepish indicate it knows it did something wrong? If my dog does something wrong and I correct it that moment, he gets the message but doesn't act sheepish. In fact I do all I can to avoid my dog acting sheepish. I don't want my corrections to cause cowering and avoidance.


Another thought....thinking about this from a dog's point of view...I'd act pretty sheepish too if I had to go REALLY bad but there were no toilets available and I had to wet myself. Doesn't mean I'd think I was bad or feel sorry about since it wasn't my fault...

 

What Really Prompts The Dog's 'Guilty Look'


Anecdotal evidence doesn't trump science.

 

The dogs didnt know from previous experience the treats were "forbidden". This is so setting the dog up for failure.

 

When my dogs make a mess they greet me with their tongues lolling and tails wagging like they can't WAIT to show me their latest art project!

 

Haha I've not experienced the "guilty" look myself, more like what you describe. Look mom! I can make a big mess!!

When dog #1 was young, she had a thing with toilet paper and leather items. When I was home, I'd leave her access to those things to correct her. She figured that out very fast and wouldn't touch those things in our presence. But if we left, and someone was dumb enough to leave their leather belt within reach, it received some extra belt holes. If someone left the bathroom door open, I'd often come home to shredded toilet paper. (and naturally the same doofus that couldn't manage to close the bathroom door also hadn't been able to manage to put the roll ON the holder, so the dog would get an entire new roll to violate.)

Dog #2 enjoyed finding one tiny small part of a throw/kitchen rug that was unravelling and help it unravel the rest of the way. Hence I learned to cut off those little pieces and that behavior stopped.

Dog #3 is the angel of the bunch and has had two incidents of carpet digging in the same spot.

Sooo sorry to ramble, but I've come home to shredded toilet paper (fun to clean up!), throw rugs unravelled and some extra bite marks in leather items and not once did I get the "guilty" look from the guilty party . They never were punished for their misdeeds (after teh fact)... but the human that couldn't close the bathroom door heard about it.

Whew, I'm glad those days of tp shredding are over. That really sucked.

 

Exactly. The same could be said about counter surfing, raiding the trash, ripping the sofa, eating a sock...

 

Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!

 

Never have. Never would.

Without reprimand (stearn look) they dont know what they did. You cant teach a dog if it doesnt know what it did wrong. This is setting them up for failure!

So set them up for success and don't allow them to be alone for long periods of time before they're ready. They're ready when they're mature enough to handle it.

Scolding after the fact does absolutely nothing.

 

It is failure on the part of humans - why punish the dog?
If you leave a puppy loose in a room full of things it likes to chew on, how is that the puppy's fault?
Or go away for hours on end and never think the puppy may need to go out potty so it potties on your rug?
How is that the dog's fault, for needing to relieve itself?

 

Now you are being just downright ridiculous! Do all 5 of your dogs have free roam if your house while your gone, without getting into mischief? My dogs do, so if my method is so wrong, then explain to me how that is possible?

 

Who voted yes? There is one vote for yes....

 

I did have a dog once, a pit/shepherd mix that understood after the fact.
Two true stories:
Example 1: this happened often- I would leave him in the house when I went to work. He would inevitably get into the trash for a meat wrapper (took the plastic lid off the can) and as he drug the wrapper into the living room, the coffee filter on top of said meat wrapper would drag used coffee grounds in a trail from garbage can to spot used to lick/shred wrapper. Upon my arrival home, I would see the trail of coffee grounds, put hand on hip, tap foot and give him the look. He would go from his smiling happy self, to the crossed paws with head buried but peeking out. Every time.

Example 2: One time and one time only, when he was about a year old, he chewed a itty bitty hole in a pair of shoes of mine, by the pinkie toe. It had to be quite awhile before I found it-rarely wore the shoes. Barely noticeable. Dog was in sons bedroom with son & friend. I hid shoe behind my back, opened sons door. Dog starts to clamber off the bed excited to get out of there. I show him the shoe. He crawled backwards back up on the bed and hid behind son.

Both cases not a word was ever spoken.

On the other hand housebreaking the same dog was almost impossible and he was about dumb as a box of rocks in all other things. Never could teach him any recall, never could teach him fetch. He would 'whisper' rather than speak though.

Loved that dog!!

PS...I did not vote