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Possible Oops breeding WWYD?

25K views 63 replies 26 participants last post by  Jameson23  
#1 ·
I sent my bitch out with her handler with hopes of finishing her championship. While out with her handler she came into her 2nd heat cycle (she is 18 months old) 2 days ago I got a call from the handler that there was a problem. A 1 year old puppy that was crated next to her tied with her through the two crates (I do not own the puppy). This puppy is also a purebred GSD. At this moment we can not confirm whether or not she is pregnant. The handler is taking responsibility and is willing to pay for whatever I choose to do, should she be pregnant.

Here are more facts my bitch is clear for DM, puppy is a carrier. Neither dog has been OFAed yet (handler did offer to pay for preliminary OFA testing if I choose to keep the litter). I have not yet been able to contact the puppies owner. I had not decided on whether or not I was going to breed this bitch, and if it had it wouldn't have been for a couple of years. I would not have choose this dog to breed to, I am not a fan of his temperament. I have never raised a litter before but did plan to years down the line. I feel like if my bitch were to have this litter, my reputation in the area would be ruined. People love to talk and if they did not know the circumstances of how this happened, I feel like my name would be dragged right through the mud. I feel like I would have to sell the puppies totally under the radar and that people within the very small show community wouldn't be aloud to find out. Would I even register the puppies, or just sell them at a cheap cost with no papers?

On the other hand, there is an emergency spay option, but with that option out goes all the time and money I've spent showing her. Her show career would be over. This option also comes with a medical risk. Of course her young age also poses a risk as well. So I guess this post is more of a vent/rant..it's too early to tell if she's pregnant so fingers crosses she's not. But at the same time I need to prepare. I'm wondering what would you do in my situation?
 
#2 ·
Good that the handler takes responsibility. I personally would not spay her if you want to raise a legitimate litter down the road. Maybe do a litter reduction right after birth and leave 4 puppies to make it easier on the young mother. Don't know which sells easier, males or females. Then I would sell them for pet fee without papers and let people talk and gossip whatever they want to. The handler's reputation is also at stake and I think he needs to pay for the cost of raising the litter until the pups are off to their new owners. Keeping a secret will not work so you might as well bring it out in the open so they hear it first hand. A good lesson for everyone. I always wonder how crated dogs can pull this off? How do they do that? In Europe there is shot that works as the morning after pill but don't know about the US. But you have to be quick for that.
 
#4 ·
Yes. There is a mismate shot. It can be given fairly late in pregnancy. Occasionally multiple shots are needed. It should be done under the close supervision of a veterinarian.

Many primary vets won't do it. You would most likely need to find a reproduction specialist. It carries a risk of pyometra.

I think you need to figure out what feels right to you.

Personally I would prefer to do a mismate shot than to cull puppies after they are born. Once they are on the ground, I couldn't kill them.

If you chose to keep the litter, I think being upfront and honest about what happened is the best way to go. I would be wary of anyone selling pups on the DL to protect their reputation.

You could spay her as well. But it's up to you to decide if you think she has a lot of promise as a show dog and what your priorities are.
 
#6 ·
Please tell me more about this mismate shot. If the risk is low that is obviously our best option. It has been after 48 hours but I will still contact our vet when he opens in the morning to ask the best option (this happens over the weekend, so we haven't been able to get in touch with him yet). I will call first thing in the morning and keep everybody in the loop with what the vet recommends.

If we do end up keeping the litter, I agree selling on the DL sounds really sketchy. I also wouldn't want to be advertising all over the internet "Oops litter but don't worry-Not my fault". I don't want to bring negative attention to the handler either. Aside from this incident, this handler has handled my dogs for years and I've been very pleased. I definitely don't want a huge public internet bashing of this handler.

Wolfy dog-I have heard of this happening before. They can also mate through chain link fences as well.

I definitely have a lot of option weighing to do. I'm sure the shot comes with risks, as done going through and letting her have this litter. I think the choice would be easier had the puppy been any other puppy. From what I know of this puppy his temperament is really not that great. Now I only know this puppy from what I can see at shows, but what I see in that environment I do not like. He appears to be dog reactive, and on more that one occasion I have seen him be excused from the ring for reasons such as cowering away from the judge.
 
#9 ·
There a few different drugs that are used for this purpose. And which one is chosen is going to depend on the stage of estrus, how far past mating you are, and veterinary experience.

Call your vet. Most can be used at least up to day 30, some up to day 45. They carry increased risk of pyometra, can be very uncomfortable and can fail all together, in which the pups would end up not being viable, but carried to term. So it could be a mess.

I have seen it done in a few dogs they all came through just fine and went on to carry healthy litters. My vet used a drug called lutalyse.

Each med works to block or overload certain hormones to make the pregnancy fail.
 
#10 ·
The mismate shot DOES carry risks. It will bring her back into heat basically for another three weeks. It also carries a big risk of pyometra, which is either an immediate spay or possible death of your girl.
I'm sorry but I have handled dogs for years and have never had two dogs breed through a wire crate. I can't understand how they would tie for any length of time without someone getting hurt, even a big crate. How in the world would the male dog be able to hold on to the female through a wire crate long enough to tie? Hmm, I have also heard of dogs breeding through chain link, although in 40 years of having dogs together, big and small, have never had one breed through the fence or in a crate. Again, not like the male can put his front feet/legs through the fence/wire to hold onto female to breed and tie with her, then get front legs out of fence/wire, turn around and stay tied like that .
If this had happened to me, I would have flushed the female out immediately with water, I know this kills the sperm. The "eggs" are still free floating, have not planted into the uterine walls until at least day 15 or 16, not sure what day she is on. I would ask the vet to flush her out immediately, might help instead of giving the mismate shot.
I think you are not being told the whole story, being around handlers and their helpers, sounds more likely that someone put them in the same expen or had them out at the same time and he caught her. I never ever kept females in heat anywhere around male dogs, young or old, especially client dogs to not have an issue happen.

Your handler was negligent pure and simple, glad he/she is paying for everything. Like I said, have your vet flush your girl out as soon as you can, and then cross your fingers that she did not take. If she is pregnant, have the litter, sell them as unregistered and be truthful, she was bred while out with a handler. Not your fault, and your handler that you are PAYING to take care of your girl, was negligent and I'm sorry, maybe this story needs to be put out there in the show world so it doesn't happen to anyone else. Having it happen to one client is bad enough
 
#11 ·
Thank you for your input. It is after hours our primary vet is closed. There is an emergency vet about 2 hours away, if I take her now to get flushed out would it make much of a difference vs. waiting until morning for primary vet?

ALso, I did not realize how impossible this feat would be. I figured I've heard of them breeding through fences before, so thought the possibility could be pretty likely. Your explanation makes me think otherwise. I think I need to have a follow up conversation with the handler, and also speak to the puppies owner as soon as I'm able to get a hold of her (i haven't been able to get her on the phone). Seeing that you are a handler, how do you suggest I start that conversation and what should I say?
 
#12 ·
Flush with water? Sorry but that sounds like the old wives tale of douching after sex to prevent pregnancy. Years of working with a repro vet and have never heard that before. Sorry.

Yes the mismate shot carries risks. That's why it's up to the OP to decide what's best for her dog.

How it happened is a moot point now. Now she has to deal with the aftermath. She can make a decision as to whether she will continue to trust this handler or not.
 
#14 ·
I would not do a mismate shot - I know a few vets who are board certified repro vets who will not give it.

If the handler is assuming responsibility, he needs to inform the owner of the male as well.

If the female is bred, I would have the pups, and if possible, paper them on limited papers, and place carefully in pet homes at reasonable enough prices so that people perceive them to have reasonable value - not throwaway pups. The handler should apologize to the owners of the male and try to arrange papers for the pups - no reason to jeopardize the future of the pups if you can paper them. You did not make the mistake, you did not condone the breeding and you have nothing to hide...cite the circumstances publicly and enlist the handler's assistance to place the pups appropriately.

Lee
 
#16 ·
I agree with Lee. I'd also get both dogs hips and elbows xray'd as well so at least you have that knowledge going forward.
 
#19 ·
Culling healthy pups seems like it's fraught with moral issues to me, if she carries the litter.

If that's on the table, and she really is pregnant, please see if a reputable breed rescue will work with you on placements, if your handler is carrying all costs. Some rescues will be ugly because you may yet want to breed the dog in the future -- ignore them and move on. Others will be happy to help, if they have waiting lists of good adopters who want pups, esp. if you agree at the outset that you will donate all the adoption fees to the rescue. That donation would end up supporting the care of older, sick dogs every rescue has draining resources. Rescue adopters don't care about papers and will be under spay/neuter contracts.

Partnering with a good breed rescue has another benefit. It ensures a safety net for life for these dogs, if placements don't work out. Otherwise you may have to be the safety-net for 12 or so years -- and possibly deal with that out-of-the blue phone call a few years from now from the person who's got a new baby and no longer wants the dog, or the shelter who found it stray and tracked it back to you through a microchip you purchased years ago. Someone's got to be there for them--bad stuff happens, no matter how carefully breeders and rescues screen, and if you aren't ready to take on that responsibility spanning more than a decade, it would be wise to get help.
 
#20 ·
Magwart has another perspective that I agree is a very viable alternative if she is pregnant....

I missed the comment about culling in previous posts....I am not in agreement with culling at all.

Lee
 
#22 ·
As I understood it, terminating a pregnancy is hard on the bitch. I don't know what I would do. Hang the handler's butt on a flag pole. If the handler is covering all expenses, does that include replacing your bitch with another of your choosing? This is a collossal (sp) screw up. THe OP seems amazingly calm. I would not be amazingly calm.
 
#23 ·
#1 It is absolute baloney that the dog and bitch managed to tie while being crated next to each other. Not possible. Your handler is lying to you. If you watch this procedure, you will know this it true, so, find a new handler.

For the bitch's health, I would not spay nor would I do a mismate shot. Have the puppies. Then continue your bitch's show career.

Good luck.
 
#27 ·
UPDATE:
I took the day off of work to figure things out. We spoke and met with a nice repro vet that was able to talk us through the situation. He did an exam on her and found that she was in good health. We talked through our options should she be pregnant and he believes the safest option for us is to let her go ahead and have the litter. He said an 18 month old in good health having a litter had lower health risks when compared to terminating the pregnancy. We talked about our concerns about us having never raised a litter before. The emergency vet is a 2 hour drive from us, so that was a little unsettling to us. The repro vet actually has a few contacts in our area that he is referring us to for some nice local help. I'm really glad we went in and spoke with him today.

Today I also spoke with the handler and told him about our vet visit and our decision (yes handler is well known somebody here had asked). He has reimbursed us all handling expenses for last week, is paying all vet care for puppies, dam and x-rays on both parents. He will help us find homes, and if we can't find homes by 12 weeks he is taking the extra puppies back.

I also was able to get in touch with the males owner. I told her about how we were going to have the litter is she was pregnant-she wants a stud fee now. We're going to let the handler deal with that one LOL

We have a follow up appointment with the repro vet next month but for now we are just keeping her happy and healthy. Thanks everyone that contributed to the thread.
 
#29 ·
I think you made the right choice. If you are undecided on breeding her later (meaning, you may want to), I would wait it out, hope she's not pregnant, and not risk trying to terminate the pregnancy, especially with the handler offering help as his reputation is on the line.
 
#31 ·
wow, she wants a stud fee for a pup of questionable temperament? I find that despicable and hope she doesn't try to promote her puppy as a stud until he has his health tests and some titles to prove he is worthy of reproducing.
 
#34 ·
wow, she wants a stud fee for a pup of questionable temperament? I find that despicable and hope she doesn't try to promote her puppy as a stud until he has his health tests and some titles to prove he is worthy of reproducing.
The owner of the bitch is not a fan of the pup's temperament The owner of the dog-pup might be perfectly happy with his temperament. Who is right?

If you want to register the litter, you need to pay the stud fee. If not, then don't pay the stud fee. That's pretty simple. But I think having the pups registered and then selling them on a limited registration allows you to make that decision when the pups have grown a bit, if you want.

I'd still fire the handler. Accidents do not just happen. A handler ought to be able to hand the animals he is boarding at his place. And then lying about the animals being crated and tying through a pair of crates -- that is actually insulting.