[wolfy dog]

The people who have the skill to deal with dogs like that rarely want one like that.

This is so true and it makes it so hard to solve this problem.

 

[Chip18]

Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??"

It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??

Most likely ... there are millions of dogs out there ... that don't much care for kids??? And if they are raised and trained properly ... one could tell??? Most likely everyone has seen them and you can't tell?? Responsabile owners ...lots of us out there. And I ... had one, Rocky ... proofed under carefully controlled conditions "proved" he did not much care for toddlers!! That ... was a bit of a surprise to me ... but no problem ... I don't have kids so ... whatever.

Still crap happens.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8568570-post4.html

I don't have kids, and my dog clearly had a dislike for toddlers but none the less ... I taught him ...not to be biting the crap out of "people??" And when he was faced with the "unexpected appearance of a toddler ... while in an out of site "Place"and no daddy to be found??? He chose ... to "Walk Away." I train dogs to make "Good Choices." Surely ... I can't be alone???

Near as I can tell ... this dog has no medical issues??? Wrong home, and an owner in over her head ... at the moment?? Does mean "that" can't be changed with competent outside help but at the moment it is what it is. Full disclosure of the dogs history, of course would be required but sure it's a big lift as the dog "now" has a bite history but ... it can be done ... the pool of willing/capable owners ... is just a lot smaller.

 

[Baillif]

There is plenty of hope for the dog if the OP decided to go that route. It isn't necessarily an easy or cheap route. At the very least it comes with some serious freedom restrictions on the dog.

There is a dog in my training room right now that has been there for over a year. The dog had aggression issues with strangers. It went through training once the owners realized they had a baby on the way. THE DOG HAS NEVER GONE AFTER FAMILY, but there was a time where you couldn't get within 20 feet of the owner and the dog without the dog wanting to murder you. The baby came. The dog is still at the facility and who knows when or if they will pick the dog up. They are paying somewhere between 1-2k a month to keep the dog there and keep him alive, but they don't want to bring him home. Solution? Yeah. He gets on great with staff and goes and plays with dogs a good chunk of the day so pretty kick ass life. Not cheap though. I can't say I blame em for making that call, even though I'm a little irritated they don't give him a shot, but I do understand why they don't.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

The dog doesn't just not like kids, right? It doesn't like other dogs. Can't be handled by the vet. Owners can't trim nails because it's trying to bite?

Now, I am not sure what any of that means still....because very vague second hand info. It might not be that big of a deal. It might be a bigger deal.

Sedation for x rays doesn't really excite me, they sedated mine for OFA'S so they could get a good shot. They did not sedate him or have any trouble x rating him around 6 months when I thought he ate a toy.

 

[Chip18]

I will say this though. The people who have the skill to deal with dogs like that rarely want one like that.

LOL ..yesss that does make sense.

 

[selzer]

Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??"

It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??

Most likely ... there are millions of dogs out there ... that don't much care for kids??? And if they are raised and trained properly ... one could tell??? Most likely everyone has seen them and you can't tell?? Responsabile owners ...lots of us out there. And I ... had one, Rocky ... proofed under carefully controlled conditions "proved" he did not much care for toddlers!! That ... was a bit of a surprise to me ... but no problem ... I don't have kids so ... whatever.

Still crap happens.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8568570-post4.html

I don't have kids, and my dog clearly had a dislike for toddlers but none the less ... I taught him ...not to be biting the crap out of "people??" And when he was faced with the "unexpected appearance of a toddler ... while in an out of site "Place"and no daddy to be found??? He chose ... to "Walk Away." I train dogs to make "Good Choices." Surely ... I can't be alone???

Near as I can tell ... this dog has no medical issues??? Wrong home, and an owner in over her head ... at the moment?? Does mean "that" can't be changed with competent outside help but at the moment it is what it is. Full disclosure of the dogs history, of course would be required but sure it's a big lift as the dog "now" has a bite history but ... it can be done ... the pool of willing/capable owners ... is just a lot smaller.

Chip, did your dog bite a toddler?

Babies and toddlers can be puzzling and even scary to dogs. They smell different than other people, and the move different. They are small, and people often exude different feelings when they are around babies, protective, anxious, etc. So a young dog that has not been around a toddler, might growl or bark at it. If it bites the toddler, that is a whole other level of scary.

Bailiff's statement about people who can actually handle the dog, really do not want them, is the best so far.

I too would like to get more information on the bites/attacks. There is a big difference between deep punctures and bruising, and a little blood. "It broke the skin" is a lot different than "I needed to go to the ER and have stitches and drains put in and it took the better part of six months to heal completely, I still have the scar."

 

[Chip18]

Chip, did your dog bite a toddler?

NO, he did not ... when he was "tested" as it were. I was there ... he seemed calm enough and I covered the kidlets hand with mine and he reacted to the touch. But as my hand was over hers he got me first and let go. No harm no foul no reprimand, the toddler did not even notice but it freaked me out!!

No toddlers from then on! The link was after I already understood he did not like toddlers! A true "Crap Happens" situation! Rocky was out back so an out of site "place." Grandma ... should not have been there with the toddlers ...but she was?? Well no problem ... she'll watch the kid??? Yeah right ... I was the first to notice the toddlers was not indoors?? And I freaked as I bolted out back!!! I expected to see a scene of horror!!! But when I opened the door all I saw was the toddler standing there unharmed and looking puzzled alone??

It was then I looked for Rocky and he was gone??? I found him about 15 yards away ... just standing there and smiling at me! Apparently when the toddler approached .. he said "screw this" and "Walked Away" ... good enough.

But maybe it was a size thing??? Youngsters appered to be not an issue?? I got challenged by a kid at Petco as to just exactly why ... "I can't pet your dog??" And I explained why and what, I'd be doing with him to help him with his people issues. He then said ... fine well is he Ok now?? Not really expecting that and in fact at this point in time he was in fact fine. I stepped aside and let the youngster pet Rocky. No issues he said, "nice dog" and went on his way.

So ... he was safe enough around youngsters, but not up to my "Boxer Standards" for kid friendly. You must be this tall to Pet my dog ... does not work for me. So "I classified him" as a "No Kids Dog." My standards for acceptable behaviour are pretty high, Zero Bite Policy ... is how I roll.

 

[cliffson1]

Well ... if one is going to think only in terms of "worst case scenarios" then sure put the dog down. But ... just because the OP can't solve the issue first does not mean it can't be solved (find the right trainer) and second that "No else can??"

It's not fair to throw Cliffson and Bailiff under the bus?? And it's not fair to make the OP believe that just because she can't solve her dog's issues, there is no hope for her dog??

Most likely ... there are millions of dogs out there ... that don't much care for kids??? And if they are raised and trained properly ... one could tell??? Most likely everyone has seen them and you can't tell?? Responsabile owners ...lots of us out there. And I ... had one, Rocky ... proofed under carefully controlled conditions "proved" he did not much care for toddlers!! That ... was a bit of a surprise to me ... but no problem ... I don't have kids so ... whatever.

Still crap happens.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8568570-post4.html

I don't have kids, and my dog clearly had a dislike for toddlers but none the less ... I taught him ...not to be biting the crap out of "people??" And when he was faced with the "unexpected appearance of a toddler ... while in an out of site "Place"and no daddy to be found??? He chose ... to "Walk Away." I train dogs to make "Good Choices." Surely ... I can't be alone???

Near as I can tell ... this dog has no medical issues??? Wrong home, and an owner in over her head ... at the moment?? Does mean "that" can't be changed with competent outside help but at the moment it is what it is. Full disclosure of the dogs history, of course would be required but sure it's a big lift as the dog "now" has a bite history but ... it can be done ... the pool of willing/capable owners ... is just a lot smaller.

Chip, don't worry, they're not throwing me under the bus. My opinion is based on dealing with this type of dog and situation professionally. Everybody has right to an opinion, but everybody doesn't have extensive experience in areas of their opinion. Some people have an opinion on everything, your opinion is much closer to what I have experienced in dealing with these type cases. I can't go into people's homes with these type dogs with a preset mindset and be successful or a professional. Each situation is different, although when you have dealt with it enoughthe same variables seem to be in place. You can always tell folks who have limited exposure to this type situation by their concept of possible solutions.

 

[tim_s_adams]

So, I just re-read the initial post. This dog grew up with kids in the home and, unless the OP left out critical info, had not bit the girls previously. My take on that is not that the dog is unsafe around, or doesn't like, kids. It's the dynamic in the home. The initial bite was in defense of the hugger. Subsequent biting occurred because the initial bite was not handled correctly. Should a family dog ever bite a child? Well, these kids are teenaged, not toddlers, so who knows what the provocation in the dog's mind was. But nowhere does the OP say anything about the dog attacking a toddler. Could she do that now? Absolutely, because she's learned that biting is an acceptable means of communication. Does that make this dog dangerous, yes, in the current environment. That is why I initially suggested rehoming instead of euthanasia. The dog is acting out in a dangerous way, but I don't believe - at least from the facts we have been told - that the dog is somehow neurologically defective. Hopefully a suitable home can be found...

 

[Jenny720]

I'm a bit surprised the daughter still wants to hug the dog that attacked her a few times and still is allowed to hug the dog after she was bit many times. Our first gsd did not like physical affection at all -we did respect his space. He would just get horse eyed if you put an arm around him. We had no kids at the time until he was much older and so it worked out. He came from a home with young kids but still not to sure how he would deal with all the affection my kids would have wanted to dish out if allowed presently which I would not allow knowing his discomfort. The dogs we have now enjoy the affection and don't mind. He also hated nail trims but was a stable confident dog though and was in a home suitable to him at the time till he passed at 12 years of age. Hope you find answers from professionals you seek.

 

[Kyrielle]

I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on TV.

However, due to the nature of internet forums, it seems likely there's some information missing here. This is natural, because you don't want to go writing a book detailing every little movement that occurred before and after the bite from all parties involved. That's extremely tedious and something that can be explained best with in-person conversations.

We could be missing all the warnings the dog was throwing over and over and over across the months and years she's lived in the house. She could have tried to tell the OP's daughter repeatedly that she doesn't like being hugged. Maybe the bite was the last straw and she couldn't take it anymore. Maybe she's experiencing a sudden hormone shift that's causing mental imbalance. Maybe she's developed some other mental issue (dogs get them just like people). Maybe something genetic has surfaced. We don't know, we weren't there.

I think, OP, you should have that dog evaluated by someone who specializes in behavior, especially aggression. Even if you decide to put the dog down, at least you'll know what caused her behavior, how it developed, and how not to allow that behavior to surface ever again in any future dogs. But this is a very serious matter, even if the bites were like a level 2-3 in severity. What's most disturbing is that at one point she bit your daughter with no provocation whatsoever. A dog that bites just because you look at it wrong is very dangerous.

Here's a link to a bite scale showing what I'm talking about: http://apdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ian-dunbar-dog-bite-scale.pdf

Ultimately, the choice is yours. Decide what is best for the safety and sanity of your family (including the dog).

 

[wolfy dog]

2 wks later the dog was asleep and my daughter went up to her and started hugging her and touched her paws. The dog attacked her with bites through the skin all over her body.

Then 4 days later we were leaving the house and the dog was just chilling by the entrance. When the same daughter was just passing the dog (totally benign no hint of interest in the dog) Dash just attacked her with multiple through the skin bites.

According to the Ian Dunbar bite scale these are level 5 bites. What more information do you need? No matter what causes this dog to bite, there just isn't a place in nowaday's society for dogs like these. I have seen it so often that people hang on to dogs that have bitten/mauled their owners and their kids and make excises because "they love the dog". I wonder if owners are liable with child protection services to keep a dog like that in the home. Someone has to be the smartest one in this.

 

[Muskeg]

If a full grown GSD actually attacks someone, it would be a trip to the ER. I am confused by the magnitude of the actual "attack".

These are not toddlers so I don't think kid aggression is necessarily applicable.

One other option is to simply build a nice and secure kennel area for the dog outside. Take her out twice daily for training and exercise. Make sure all her needs are met. Pretty simple solution.

I don't see a lot of GSDs that LOVE other dogs, and when I first took my GSD to the vet, she was super afraid of her because of the bad rep. so many GSDs have for being difficult at the vet. My girl was perfect, and the vet soon loved her, but there are lots of GSDs that do not do well at the vet, and they are not all mauling kids. This is rather irrelevant.

It's really very difficult to tell what is going on without seeing the dog.

OP, post again if you are willing to try training with the dog and doing what needs to be done to keep the dog in the home and we can help you find a good trainer to help you out.

 

[Thecowboysgirl]

Wolfydog I really don't think that we know this is a level 5 biter. Extremely dangerous and mutilates???

if the dog had done that much damage to the kid I think either the police or animal control or both would have been notified by the emergency room.

Read his description of level 2 bites...may have been what OP was intending to describe.

That's the problem with Internet info...

 

[Muskeg]

One more thought. Not that it's ever "OK" but intact females go through some pretty distinct changes with hormonal cycles and this could be contributing. Bitches are far more likely to fight just before or during heat cycles. Dogs likewise, but only during the cycles- fighting for breeding rights. Depending on the dog in question, it can be a strong driver of behavior, or not really, but it should come into consideration. Wolves get nasty with each other during breeding season, the reason only alpha male-female mate is not a pretty one.

This is one dog, but I could certainly see her getting nasty with a teenage girl in the home if she was never handled correctly- she might see the human as a competitor... I'm simplifying it but you get my point. Solution might be the same, but something to think about.

 

[Nigel]

What kind of interaction have the kids had with her in the past? Have either of them teased or provoked her in what might seem like a fun or innocent game to us, but may build frustration from the dog?

 

[wolfy dog]

Wolfydog I really don't think that we know this is a level 5 biter. Extremely dangerous and mutilates???

if the dog had done that much damage to the kid I think either the police or animal control or both would have been notified by the emergency room.

Read his description of level 2 bites...may have been what OP was intending to describe.

That's the problem with Internet info...

OP can determine the bite level. It shouldn't be that hard to do. Curious.

 

[carmspack]

put up a video of this dog interacting with YOU (OP).

just normal day to day in the house - not training or testing

is the breeder a byb?

 

[wolfstraum]

I have NOT read the whole 6 pages of discussion.

ANY dog who randomly attacks and bites "through the skin" "all over the body" on family members - children!!! - who love her...is not 100% stable - no excuses, no rationalization.

The dog has a bite history - is by most standards a "dangerous dog"

There are sweet stable GSDs being put to sleep for lack of homes every day in the US......

If I was the breeder, I would take the dog back and euthanize it....this is NOT your fault...this is a dog who is not wired right. Your breeder needs a kick in the behind for their blaming you!



Sorry for the bluntness.


Lee

 

[Chip18]

There is plenty of hope for the dog if the OP decided to go that route. It isn't necessarily an easy or cheap route. At the very least it comes with some serious freedom restrictions on the dog.

There is a dog in my training room right now that has been there for over a year. The dog had aggression issues with strangers. It went through training once the owners realized they had a baby on the way. THE DOG HAS NEVER GONE AFTER FAMILY, but there was a time where you couldn't get within 20 feet of the owner and the dog without the dog wanting to murder you. The baby came. The dog is still at the facility and who knows when or if they will pick the dog up. They are paying somewhere between 1-2k a month to keep the dog there and keep him alive, but they don't want to bring him home. Solution? Yeah. He gets on great with staff and goes and plays with dogs a good chunk of the day so pretty kick ass life. Not cheap though. I can't say I blame em for making that call, even though I'm a little irritated they don't give him a shot, but I do understand why they don't.

Just curious, if they care that much ... why don't they post him as available as a rescue??? In essence, he is simply in a very expensive "Foster Home."

It would seem like a slam dunk to find him a home ... but I suppose it gets back to people do stuff.