[m2mtalcott]

The “too much freedom part doesn’t really matter as to him being a working dog or not. If someone was buying him to train they would set the boundaries on their own during training. It’s not relevant to his working ability. The insecure part is what matters. That is also the part that can make it hard to be a sport prospect or rehome, depending on what he meant by it. That’s one of the things I was asking.

I’m telling he isn’t a simple dog to place. It goes back to what Lee said earlier.

thank you I understand. I really (despite my 13 years of training my dogs with them) I don’t have the technical knowledge to understand exactly what the trainer OF the K-9 units of the Massachusetts State Police (I was just lucky to get in there with my household pets) had to say when he used the word “insecure”. He’s had a long history observing and training Czech dogs and he greatly prefers DDR. He spent a lot of time explaining to me what he finds problematic about Czech dogs in particular he said this dog was a good example of that problem. I can elaborate but I would be paraphrasing him, trying to explain to you what I thought he must mean (from my amateur point of view). I did do serious training years ago with this trainer (Protection with my then GSD starting at 4.5 months and continuing intensively for several years) and at that time he called me a “good handler” and suggested a DDR dog for me. With this dog I was gone traveling for work left him with my husband at a young formative age for several weeks which I regret and I did not get him down to my trainer til 5 months. He felt with this particular dog I should have showed up 2 months earlier. The “freedom” includes having allowed him to sleep on the floor of our bedroom (with an also unneutered standard poodle of the same age and a Pom and Rat Terrier) and being allowed to jump on the bed (which is where the bite happened). There was a dog fight on the bed after the Poodle returned from a week of training; my husband was already fed up with all the growling and fighting. The Poodle player King of the Hill on the bed; Ragnar shot flying across the room onto the bed biting him in a locked ball of dog on top of Michael. Michael was angry and reached for a collar to separate him. That’s when he got four deep picture wounds. Yes it’s our fault but we are trying to fix this and save the situation. Not to mention the perforated traumatized Pomeranian (he’s going to the vet tomorrow he may have an infection) who was in Ragnars face since he started to grow much bigger than him had a tendency to confront and cobra strike all of his GSDs but this time he got a huge correction —frankly Ragnar does not understand just how strong his bite is…it is troubling as he has never bitten anyone like that before and now it’s been twice in two weeks that he made significant puncture wounds…thoughts please. My apologies for being reactive previously it’s a stressful situation. On the brighter side Ragnar is a quick learner took to obedience like a charm and is very clean and responsive in his training and cues. He responds to the lightest touch when it comes to basic commands; he’s well socialized guests strangers even the mail man. He holds back literally even off leash. He’s always been very dominant with other dogs though he is (was til now) very gentle with small dogs and put up with a huge amount of provocation from them. He’s traveled with me everywhere and does not react badly to new situations. I made sure of that. However when I first took him to the trainer at 5 months he was very reactive to that circumstance. And he was very dominant with other dogs there. More soon

 

[m2mtalcott]

All of the questions asked are basic questions that would come up from anyone looking to take him in. It’s not some third degree. I would ask the same questions of anyone posting about rehoming a dog and it’s not personal to you. A couple things about the breeder. One I’m not really concerned with who he is. For one I know very well what you can end up with when you breed for suspicion and aggression. I know of a dog from a pedigree that could have made a phenomenal dog who turned out to be a nervy dog washed from sports and unfit for any working roles. The other thing is the breeder bred the dog. He put his kennel name on the dog. Breeders have to own the good that comes from their programs just like the bad. How it affects his reputation isn’t really relevant to rehoming the dog. Knowing the dogs pedigree is.

This I will tell you is an actual red flag. You didn’t ask for breeder advice here so I won’t address that further unless you want. The next question would be why the breeder said the dog needed to be neutered. No one is holding anything against you. Everything being asked here is geared towards helping find the dog a home.

Yes I can see that. My apologies for being defensive. I was heartbroken from my loss of my 18 month old GSD and after inquiring with all my known breeders with whom people I trust had a long standing relationship (but did not have a litter just then or were far away) I jumped in. I’ll share the breeders name with a small circle I just don’t want to “out” anyone in public until I know exactly what happened with the breeder but yes if I am completely honest with my self there were some red flags and I was in a hurry

 

[GSD-IGP]

I don’t have the pedigree as he is not neutered yet. The breeder contract says I get his papers after he is neutered. But I believe both his parents pedigrees are widely available. I have met his parents and I know his dogs routinely place with State Troopers. I do want help but I felt that at times I am being approached here as if I were someone who has willfully mishandled dogs and am “on the stand” for that . There are upfront demands for details that might make my breeder who is a good man and respected in the police force look bad. If that felt abrasive to anyone I am genuinely sorry. I don’t want to come across like that. But I felt a lot of presumptions and accusations flying at me from the moment I set foot in this forum; as if I were one of those people who got a GSD without knowing anything about them and then dumps their dog; I hope it’s clear that we did have some serious events here despite our best efforts (including a whole lot of expensive training) I may have been defensive about this for which I sincerely apologize. again I hope we can get past my tone and you will continue to try to help save this situation with your knowledge and connections, whoever has those. But that does not mean that as you suggest I wont be checking out what’s what and who’s who here as I am new to this forum and to blogging in general.

There is good information in this thread, but I do think it would help to learn who the parents are. If the pedigrees are widely available it is easy enough to post the parents names.

I am sorry you are going through this. I cannot imagine how challenging this is for you and your family.

 

[m2mtalcott]

Yes I can see that. My apologies for being defensive. I was heartbroken from my loss of my 18 month old GSD and after inquiring with all my known breeders with whom people I trust had a long standing relationship (but did not have a litter just then or were far away) I jumped in. I’ll share the breeders name with a small circle I just don’t want to “out” anyone in public until I know exactly what happened with the breeder but yes if I am completely honest with my self there were some red flags and I was in a hurry. Yes I completely understand I will get you the pedigree

 

[m2mtalcott]

I also appear to be having technical difficulties blogging

 

[m2mtalcott]

Okay here’s the parents of my dog Ragnar

 

[m2mtalcott]

That is an interesting assessment. Why is it they said he was unsuitable for police work? Can you describe his temperament beyond high prey drive? How is he with strangers? How does he handle new environments or strange surfaces? How is he with other dogs or around children? What training has he actually had? Is it just pet obedience? Do you have his pedigree?

Yes basic obedience not Protection work as I did with my other dogs. But his basic commands are all clean on and off leash. He is personable with strangers and friends and neighbors —even my ninety year old mother who is very affectionate with him and he’s been respectful of her—have had very pleasant interactions with him again and again. He has days when he balks at new situations (he acted up when I first brought him to his trainer) but is good with Vets boats many new experiences. He is willful however with my husband and son knocked the former down twice. Bites at the latters shoes (less so now, my 18 yr old has become more assertive with him); unsuitable for police work, again I am paraphrasing and quoting now my trainers reaction after his first full week of live in boot camp: “I could have pushed him further, but with a dog this insecure and emotional, I had to be sure to win his trust; if I pushed him too hard he might flip and consider everyone an enemy and then powerful as he is he can turn and become dangerous.” Im paraphrasing Then he went on to tell me about Czech dogs and that he had problems like this with them in the past and that Ragnar is half way in between the dog I had when I did Protection training (a marvelous dog with a reliable on-off switch no matter what the temptation or provocation zero to 100 and back to zero in a flash) and a completely insane and brutally dangerous Malinoix that he rescued. That scared me. Lately I had a long talk with him after Ragnar sent my husband to the hospital. No, he said, he did not think Ragnar is right for police work unless he had become “confident” since he last saw him (two months ago) but he doubted it He did say after Ragnars second week of intensive live in training with him that he was “a clean dog” that all of his basic commands were now “clean” which they are. Except when he’s in a dog fight apparently which of course is where it would matter most especially given what happened there. I’ve been reinforcing that training for the past 6 months and I have been consistent

 

[Bearshandler]

Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.

cs.working-dog.com

Yaran vom Salztalblick | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Yaran vom Salztalblick at working-dog.

us.working-dog.com

 

[m2mtalcott]

Beautiful area to have that dog, I'm sorry its not working out but perhaps not the best chance for success with the current dogs.

Thank you for the kind words. That is all on our land, it’s been “dog heaven” a wonderful thing to have on a coastal mountain in Maine! Yes this is a total heart break for me

 

[Bearshandler]

The “freedom” includes having allowed him to sleep on the floor of our bedroom (with an also unneutered standard poodle of the same age and a Pom and Rat Terrier) and being allowed to jump on the bed (which is where the bite happened). There was a dog fight on the bed after the Poodle returned from a week of training; my husband was already fed up with all the growling and fighting. The Poodle player King of the Hill on the bed; Ragnar shot flying across the room onto the bed biting him in a locked ball of dog on top of Michael. Michael was angry and reached for a collar to separate him. That’s when he got four deep picture wounds. Yes it’s our fault but we are trying to fix this and save the situation. Not to mention the perforated traumatized Pomeranian (he’s going to the vet tomorrow he may have an infection) who was in Ragnars face since he started to grow much bigger than him had a tendency to confront and cobra strike all of his GSDs but this time he got a huge correction —frankly Ragnar does not understand just how strong his bite is…it is troubling as he has never bitten anyone like that before and now it’s been twice in two weeks that he made significant puncture wounds…thoughts please.

I don’t think the issue here is the GSD and his freedom, but the interactions that are allowed between all the dogs. It doesn’t sound like Ragnar is 100 percent at fault, rather a combination of mismanaged dogs that created this. When it comes to my dogs I do allow them some communication between each other, but I by and large take the responsibility for making sure they respect each others boundaries and get corrected when needed. I will correct and remove a dog as necessary for not respecting another’s space. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to take something from another dog. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to push around the other. No dog should be allowed to harass the other, regardless of size. That Pom should have been corrected by you and your husband for his actions towards Ragnar. He pushed and pushed until he got a response. The other two should have been watched closely and checked the second the signs of aggression towards each other came. It’s unwise to put your hands near the business ends of dogs fighting. Every situation is different and it’s hard to give a playbook on how to handle it but I wouldn’t do that unless it was a moment I knew the dog wouldn’t redirect. Not a guarantee by any means, but you would have had a much easier time with a female/male pairing vice same sex. It’s not that your situation is untenable, but it would require a firm and consistent hand, or a crate and rotate.

 

[m2mtalcott]

I respect that you are doing your due diligence in asking questions and that you don't know any of us. I respect that you would rather keep the information private instead of having everyone chime in with opinions on an evaluation. But we are trying to help you. So maybe be a little less abrasive when responding.

I sent you a PM, yesterday or the day before, asking for a pedigree and offering possible places in New England that could do an evaluation, obviously they will want to do their own evaluation as they should, and possibly help you place him. And you did not respond. So again, I'll just ask for his pedigree so I can see it and maybe suggest it to my contacts in the sport and LEO world.

Personally, I think trying to rehome a dog that will "just sends people to the hospital once in a while" on a pet forum is completely irresponsible.

he bit my husband in a dog fight. I have heard that sticking your hand into a dog fight is not optimal. I don’t see signs of people aggression per se . I have a trainer and a breeder who are both putting the word out in their law enforcement circles . I am not offering the dog on a public forum to just anyone. I am trying to widen my circle of people who know love and can effectively deal with a Czech Working Line German Shepherd Dog. That’s a very small pool of people. Do you think it is irresponsible of me to try to stir up that particular linited and highly skilled pool of people here? Those are the only ones I would “give” my dog to. I’m answering your pm here in this post as I have got on the wrong side of a lot of people somehow and so I have ended up doing all of this very publicly after all. I apologize sincerely for any unintended offense or thoughtless abrasiveness. This circumstance (just happened a few days ago) has put me on edge

 

[m2mtalcott]

I don’t think the issue here is the GSD and his freedom, but the interactions that are allowed between all the dogs. It doesn’t sound like Ragnar is 100 percent at fault, rather a combination of mismanaged dogs that created this. When it comes to my dogs I do allow them some communication between each other, but I by and large take the responsibility for making sure they respect each others boundaries and get corrected when needed. I will correct and remove a dog as necessary for not respecting another’s space. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to take something from another dog. I will correct and remove a dog for trying to push around the other. No dog should be allowed to harass the other, regardless of size. That Pom should have been corrected by you and your husband for his actions towards Ragnar. He pushed and pushed until he got a response. The other two should have been watched closely and checked the second the signs of aggression towards each other came. It’s unwise to put your hands near the business ends of dogs fighting. Every situation is different and it’s hard to give a playbook on how to handle it but I wouldn’t do that unless it was a moment I knew the dog wouldn’t redirect. Not a guarantee by any means, but you would have had a much easier time with a female/male pairing vice same sex. It’s not that your situation is untenable, but it would require a firm and consistent hand, or a crate and rotate.

yes we are now down to crate and rotate you are correct about all the above. The Pom has got away with murder over the past ten years with 4 different other German Shepherds they all thought the Pom was funny. Even Ragnar has been consistently sweet to him he grew up with him and was patient with him no matter how badly the Pom acted. The Pom was a rescue ten years ago and otherwise so easy to get along with (heels naturally off leash etc) that I admit I neglected to train him formally and this was the result. You are so right. Sticking your hand into a dog fight is not something I myself would have done. It was also the first time it happened (it was the first time that the pudel had been away) although in my long discussion with the trainer afterwards he suggested that I / we as a family would have missed and overlooked early signs and not nipped them in the bud…so yes unfortunately I was not as competent or savvy as I should have been or my trainer had expected me to be. This is on me. We’ve had two unneutered GSD males together before but they were 4 years apart and there was never anything like this just cheerful romping I got spoiled and a little negligent after all of that and I’ve been traveling for work For 3 months out of the last eleven with unfortunate consequences for Ragnar obviously; thank you for taking the time to help him

 

[m2mtalcott]

All of the questions asked are basic questions that would come up from anyone looking to take him in. It’s not some third degree. I would ask the same questions of anyone posting about rehoming a dog and it’s not personal to you. A couple things about the breeder. One I’m not really concerned with who he is. For one I know very well what you can end up with when you breed for suspicion and aggression. I know of a dog from a pedigree that could have made a phenomenal dog who turned out to be a nervy dog washed from sports and unfit for any working roles. The other thing is the breeder bred the dog. He put his kennel name on the dog. Breeders have to own the good that comes from their programs just like the bad. How it affects his reputation isn’t really relevant to rehoming the dog. Knowing the dogs pedigree is.

This I will tell you is an actual red flag. You didn’t ask for breeder advice here so I won’t address that further unless you want. The next question would be why the breeder said the dog needed to be neutered. No one is holding anything against you. Everything being asked here is geared towards helping find the dog a home.

I do want breeder advice from you and any advice that you can give me. Thank you I deeply appreciate your engagement and your patience with my initial reactions to an unfamiliar setting at a fraught and emotional time for me my family and my dogs

 

[Bearshandler]

yes we are now down to crate and rotate you are correct about all the above. The Pom has got away with murder over the past ten years with 4 different other German Shepherds they all thought the Pom was funny. Even Ragnar has been consistently sweet to him he grew up with him and was patient with him no matter how badly the Pom acted. The Pom was a rescue ten years ago and otherwise so easy to get along with (heels naturally off leash etc) that I admit I neglected to train him formally and this was the result. You are so right. Sticking your hand into a dog fight is not something I myself would have done. It was also the first time it happened (it was the first time that the pudel had been away) although in my long discussion with the trainer afterwards he suggested that I / we as a family would have missed and overlooked early signs and not nipped them in the bud…so yes unfortunately I was not as competent or savvy as I should have been or my trainer had expected me to be. This is on me. We’ve had two unneutered GSD males together before but they were 4 years apart and there was never anything like this just cheerful romping I got spoiled and a little negligent after all of that and I’ve been traveling for work For 3 months out of the last eleven with unfortunate consequences for Ragnar obviously thank you for taking the time to help him

I agree with your trainer. Some lessons are learned the hard way. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s nothing to stress over now, just something to take and use to do better next time.

 

[m2mtalcott]

There is good information in this thread, but I do think it would help to learn who the parents are. If the pedigrees are widely available it is easy enough to post the parents names.

I am sorry you are going through this. I cannot imagine how challenging this is for you and your family.

Thank you for your kind words your engagement and your understanding of this situation. It’s my worst nightmare: tearing my hair out about ways in which I failed to handle this dog as I should have, watching a series of mistakes go by, it’s so sad…yes indeed.it’s very hard on the family . He’s a family member and so far we’ve all failed him; plus the next time —as a consequence of that failure the damage—could be even worse….not an easy thing to face. Parents posted below and I believe there are links now to the pedigrees

 

[m2mtalcott]

Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.

cs.working-dog.com

Yaran vom Salztalblick | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Yaran vom Salztalblick at working-dog.

us.working-dog.com

Thank you for this!!

 

[m2mtalcott]

Godea od Janice | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

Všechny relevantní informace jako jsou obrázky, videa a podrobný rodokmen pro Godea od Janice nalezneš na working-dog.

cs.working-dog.com

Yaran vom Salztalblick | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog

You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Yaran vom Salztalblick at working-dog.

us.working-dog.com

Looks like dam is all Czech lines and Sire does go back to DDR of course all Czech were originally DDR but took a different direction. I really appreciate this info. I see how little homework I did with Ragnar; I did so much more with my previous German Shepherd dogs (West German Sport Dog lines including Welt Sieger) I can still recite their pedigrees; in this case I just trusted that if Ragnars parents were law enforcement material they must be good enough…I was impressed by a video showing his mothers training…should have stuck to the breeder that my trainer recommended for me…they would have made for a much calmer more steady dog as I understand it now ….yes breeder advice please…again I would love that I obviously do need it….

 

[m2mtalcott]

I agree with your trainer. Some lessons are learned the hard way. You don’t know what you don’t know. It’s nothing to stress over now, just something to take and use to do better next time.

Thank you

 

[Jax08]

he bit my husband in a dog fight. I have heard that sticking your hand into a dog fight is not optimal. I don’t see signs of people aggression per se . I have a trainer and a breeder who are both putting the word out in their law enforcement circles . I am not offering the dog on a public forum to just anyone. I am trying to widen my circle of people who know love and can effectively deal with a Czech Working Line German Shepherd Dog. That’s a very small pool of people. Do you think it is irresponsible of me to try to stir up that particular linited and highly skilled pool of people here? Those are the only ones I would “give” my dog to. I’m answering your pm here in this post as I have got on the wrong side of a lot of people somehow and so I have ended up doing all of this very publicly after all. I apologize sincerely for any unintended offense or thoughtless abrasiveness. This circumstance (just happened a few days ago) has put me on edge

Yes, people can be seriously hurt in a dog fight. It's why in another thread I advised to keep the dogs crated and rotated while a baby was awake. It only takes a second for a dog to redirect and I have the scar on my leg to prove that.

So do I think it's irresponsible to rehome a dog that sends people to the hospital? With the information you had given up to that point, I'll stand by that statement 100%. However, if this was an incident where a person got between a young, intact, male coming into maturity and another dog - that does change the outlook. Dog aggression does not equal human aggression. And even the dog aggression may just be a mismanagement of the particular dog.

The majority of people on this board are pet owners, just like you, that may not have the skills to handle this dog. Others like me, that could have the skills, have sport dogs and most people won't want to take on baggage. But we do have connections that we can send you too. This dog is young, and if the ability is there, can still be trained to work.

If you are interested in those connections to have your dog evaulated by them for interest, then respond to the PM and I'll send them to you. One, a K9 officer and trainer, is in NH and the other is in Mass that trains K9's and sport dogs (they are away at a world competition right now), and there is another K9 officer with years of SAR training (she's probably the best in the state) in eastern NY. I would trust all of these people, and have since one is my protection helper, with my dogs 100%. As someone above said - dogs can still be a single purpose dog. And, no offense to your Mass SP breeder, but not all trainers are alike. I have work to do and a dog to train so I won't repond directly to the thread anymore. If you want the connections, PM me.

 

[Sunflowers]

I feel for you.
These dogs just can’t be treated as pets.
I think with proper management you can still keep this dog, but you have to be willing to work with what you have, and approach ownership of this dog in an entirely different way.
If you don’t think you can crate and rotate, please listen to @Jax08. With her help, you can find the right placement for him, and you will be happy, and so will the dog.