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Many working dogs with sloping backs - why?

34K views 46 replies 22 participants last post by  cdwoodcox  
#1 ·
Despite the claim that the working line German Shepherd retains the original, straight back, there are countless examples of Show line-type backs. I have to post three more times to show you an example (lol).

Does anybody know why this phenomenon was able to reach the working line breed nonetheless?
 
#2 ·
"Straight back" is marketing hype and nothing more. A GSD is supposed to have bend of stifle and good angulation fore and rear. They're not supposed to be built like Malinois.

A GSD with proper angulation will have a slightly sloping topline (not the same as a curvature of the spine). In addition to that, just because the topline drops, that doesn't mean the back isn't straight. Straight is not synonymous with horizontal or parallel to the floor
 
#5 ·
Every breed has a breed stack, and the GSD breed stack has the dog with it's leg pulled back. This creates a slope back effect and some show line breeders have created a look where a dog will always look like this when walking and not stacked.

Ever notice how when any breed of dog stretches and pulls their leg(s) back their back slopes?
 
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#6 ·
show us examples of these roach backed working line dogs.

the topline has many portions - including withers , and croup -- and the back .

the ideal is a harmonious smooth line -- not table flat .
Here is my Kilo who was French Ring Brevet, competed in Campagne - BH and AD
ready for ring 1 --(club folded - no local trials) -- who jumped many a palisade and hurdle

the back has to have some elasticity -

go to http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder.html
 
#7 ·
A lot of people will say it is just the way they are stacked, or posed for a photo. However, if I catch my dogs in a natural stack they retain their straight back. If I try and stack them myself they look and act as if I am crazy. If I try and stack them to a point of angulation they are just like no thanks. It looks and seems really unnatural and uncomfortable for them. So, I really can't figure out why in the world we would take an unnatural/uncomfortable position and make that the desired thing. A natural stack in my dogs looks much different than what I see people doing with their dogs.
 

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#30 ·
Disclaimer: I have a show line dog. And I should make clear that she is a pet dog and not a show dog in part because she lacks the angulation to make her successful in the ring, so you will not see a pronounced slope in her topline, although it is more sloped than when she's just standing rather than free stacking.

But stacking in a position similar to a show stack is far from unnatural for her. This photo was taken at a dog park with me about twenty feet behind her, and I happened to have my camera up when she stopped trotting, turned, and struck this pose. She adopts this stance regularly. In fact, I stack her exactly like this when we're in conformation class (she's my practice dog). I wouldn't stretch her out any more than she is here. So I don't think that it's either unnatural or uncomfortable.
 

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#35 ·
A lot of people will say it is just the way they are stacked, or posed for a photo. However, if I catch my dogs in a natural stack they retain their straight back. If I try and stack them myself they look and act as if I am crazy. If I try and stack them to a point of angulation they are just like no thanks. It looks and seems really unnatural and uncomfortable for them. So, I really can't figure out why in the world we would take an unnatural/uncomfortable position and make that the desired thing. A natural stack in my dogs looks much different than what I see people doing with their dogs.
Disclaimer: I have a show line dog. And I should make clear that she is a pet dog and not a show dog in part because she lacks the angulation to make her successful in the ring, so you will not see a pronounced slope in her topline, although it is more sloped than when she's just standing rather than free stacking.

But stacking in a position similar to a show stack is far from unnatural for her. This photo was taken at a dog park with me about twenty feet behind her, and I happened to have my camera up when she stopped trotting, turned, and struck this pose. She adopts this stance regularly. In fact, I stack her exactly like this when we're in conformation class (she's my practice dog). I wouldn't stretch her out any more than she is here. So I don't think that it's either unnatural or uncomfortable.
Show stacking my dogs was never something I have had interest doing. Except to participate in these posts. Probably obvious from my pic of Athena. My dogs will sometimes stop and naturally be in a stack position. But I still don't see a lot of angulation. There is probably some I just never paid attention to it. What does your dog look like in a normal stance, not natural stack? I'll post pics of all 3 of my dogs standing freely. This is why I said they have straight back. But maybe most dogs look straight back free standing. Athena is just now 15 months and in just the past two months has really started to fill out or thicken up. So she is kind of at an in between stage right now.
I remember watching a dog show last year. The thing that stuck out most about the German Shepherds to me was the rear hocks. They were probably very angulated top lines. But, the rear hocks is what I noticed more.
 

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#8 ·
Three working lines in various positions of being in a show "stack" and a top winning dog from the mid 20's. The third dog is over stretched a bit. The GSD should not be flat and Horand is a bad example to use since the last dog I picture is probably the closest Max got to his ideal. Notice the dog's high withers going into a level topline. He is in a more natural position, but is definitely not flat.

I do agree some working line dogs are being shown looking like show lines. No idea why.
 

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#14 ·
Because they are capable of accomplishing the tasks that are demanded of the role to a level at least adequate as determined by the organization, and have the personality traits necessary to give at least adequate trust that they will carry them out under pressure. Simple as that.

Keep in mind also that not every working dog you see is being run by special operations forces handlers with decades of institutional experience. There is wildly different levels of ability, professionalism, competence, and experience across this country. From podunk PD that let a deputy who really liked dogs and did internet research acquire a puppy and train it himself as the counties K9 unit (that's a true story going on right now, the dog is little more than probable cause on a leash) to SEAL Team 6 helicoptering in to Pakistan and taking down Bin Laden with Cairo the Malinois.

That being said I suspect your real question being: why if slope backs are a bad thing are dogs with what you see as sloped backs doing working jobs?

Because to a certain point it doesn't negatively affect the dog and the trait is so ingrained into the breed at this point that you'd be very hard pressed to find a nearly square GSD, any GSD. (Yes I know GSDs are longer so they'd be more accurately described as a rectangle than a square but I'm talking as close to a square as a rectangle can get). Much less find a perfect stud and dam pair in all other aspects that throws great pups, that are also very squared off, to make these pups in the first place.

Steps should be taken to minimize this trait as much as possible without sacrificing what makes a GSD a GSD, but in the grand scheme of things it's here to stay OP. Put your money where your mouth is, just like alot of us did myself included, and financially reward breeders who breed dogs of solid temperament with good structure. Encourage others to do the same as well, but also recognize that some slope is inherent to the breed at this point.
 
#15 ·
I have yet to see any decent breeders advertise the straight back. As others have said, its a a catch phrase to get uninformed buyer's attention. Just like how so many throw around terms like "100% DDR" and "old fashioned" GSDs.
Now I do see reputable breeders of working lines claim their dogs do not have as much angulation or slope as the show lines, this is common, but they dont use the term "straight back." My working line has a fairly sloped back but nothing like the extremes of the show lines you often see. She is healthy, extremely athletic, and capable. This is pretty common, most working lines at club have some angulation. There is nothing wrong with it in moderation.
 
#22 ·
Yep, both of my German Shepherds have little or no angulation. I even tried to stack Athena a few posts up to the point of some angulation. You can see it didn't work. It looks painful, and I should never attempt it again. Some dogs with the right training and build it looks OK. Some dogs just don't have that. Or something like that.
Anyway I prefer the straight back. The angulation in the above working lines does look OK. Nothing real extreme. Actually nice looking angles.
 
#23 ·
Palisades don't count. Palisade is a climb. Broad jumps don't count either as a fast dog can get very little air and clear 4 meters without really having good jumping ability. The 1.2m hurdle is the hardest and most demanding jump of the three at maximum height.
 
#33 ·
palisades , broad and hurdle - all 3 are required at some point -- 20 points each

the point is the (my) dog with his conformation and athleticism could successfully and comfortably tackle all 3 without injury .
a dog with a roach back will not allow the shoulder to open for that full body extension which includes a flex in the back , and not just reach with the fore quarters.

a roach back keeps the top line compressed .

a bad back on a working dog is like having a horse with a bad foot -- so a roached back for a working dog is to be avoided

by the same token extremes in angulation either lacking or in excess impair function.

a dog with extreme rear can not make the , "climb" on the palisade. The dog has to pop up a good portion like a spider man to grab on to the top . The dog needs some thrust from his rear.
 
#27 ·
Louis Donald's article "Back of the German Shepherd" provided me with tons of (seemingly) fact-filled info. Now, when someone starts on about straight vs sloping I just ask them something about the lumbar or thoracic sections of the back. Separates the wheat from the chaff pretty quick. Is anyone else familiar with this article? Any opinions on his work?