My lovely neighbors got two new puppies yesterday off craigslist. I have no problems with them getting puppies, just feel so horrible for the pups. They currently have 6 kids, which I would have no problems with if they used any discipline at all on them. The youngest girl was already hitting one of the poor pups with a stick yesterday while the parents just sat there and talked to me. I finally had to tell her to stop. They are both mixes, I asked if they planned on getting them fixed because I was going to recommend a place and they said no they are going to let them have puppies and then sell them on craigslist... At that point I'd had enough and just mentioned if they knew how many dogs were put down every day due to not having homes. They had a pinch collar on the male who couldn't have been more then 16wks old. Just so very frustrated and trying to talk to them is like talking to a brick wall. They don't get offended, just don't seem to care. Don't know if I should continue to say anything or just but out. I guess I've said my peace and should just leave it at that but don’t feel right about it.
Ignorant Neighbors.... (RANT)
knotadork
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It is a different story for you. There are other people out there that believe if a dog has just one litter they are being mistreated and need to be rescued. There are people out there that believe ANY dog living with people and forced to sit or down or stay on command are being mistreated and should be "saved."
We live in a society with laws. What this means is that if I do not like how you treat your horse or your dog or your kid, I can look at the law and decide whether there is an infraction and if there is, I can call the authorities. But if there is no infraction, I cannot do anything about the situation save discuss it with the people and offer advice or help.
If a dog is being treated cruelly in your opinion, but not in the eyes of the law, you must step back and work to change the law. Because is somebody else's opinion, your dogs might be treated cruelly and they may feel compelled to do something drastic about it.
If a dog is running loose, and you call AC or drop the dog at the shelter, that is legal. Is it being a good neighbor? No. If you are Christian or Jew, is it Biblical? No. (There is a whole load of stuff in there about if your neighbor's animal gets loose and what your responsibility is, given though, there were no animal shelters back then.) In your opinion it may be morally right, and you are the only person who has to wake up you every day. Will it improve the situation? For that one dog, maybe. But the people will just get another puppy and treat it the same. At some point you will run out of space for taking on all of your neighbor's dogs. At that point you will have to ask yourself if the pup is better off being euthanized.
I find it much more effective to gather up your neighbor's dog when it is loose, and wait for him to return or take it back. They are usually thankful and appologetic and usually open to hearing a few very well timed and nonjudgemental suggestions that COULD put them in the right direction with regards to the dog.
I have only had one neighbor that NOTHING worked with.
We live in a society with laws. What this means is that if I do not like how you treat your horse or your dog or your kid, I can look at the law and decide whether there is an infraction and if there is, I can call the authorities. But if there is no infraction, I cannot do anything about the situation save discuss it with the people and offer advice or help.
If a dog is being treated cruelly in your opinion, but not in the eyes of the law, you must step back and work to change the law. Because is somebody else's opinion, your dogs might be treated cruelly and they may feel compelled to do something drastic about it.
If a dog is running loose, and you call AC or drop the dog at the shelter, that is legal. Is it being a good neighbor? No. If you are Christian or Jew, is it Biblical? No. (There is a whole load of stuff in there about if your neighbor's animal gets loose and what your responsibility is, given though, there were no animal shelters back then.) In your opinion it may be morally right, and you are the only person who has to wake up you every day. Will it improve the situation? For that one dog, maybe. But the people will just get another puppy and treat it the same. At some point you will run out of space for taking on all of your neighbor's dogs. At that point you will have to ask yourself if the pup is better off being euthanized.
I find it much more effective to gather up your neighbor's dog when it is loose, and wait for him to return or take it back. They are usually thankful and appologetic and usually open to hearing a few very well timed and nonjudgemental suggestions that COULD put them in the right direction with regards to the dog.
I have only had one neighbor that NOTHING worked with.
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Different people are different. I have benefitted by my family owning outdoor dogs. But I would have benefitted more by them owning indoor dogs.
Every dog has a personality and bonds with its owners. Even outdoor dogs can be beloved by their families. I think the real losers are the people though, because owning outdoor dogs is very different than owning indoor dogs. I think people who own indoor dogs appreciate their expression and character a lot more than those who have a dog in the yard.
Dogs can certainly thrive without ever setting foot inside their owners house.
Why have cats in the yard? Why have rabbits in a cage in the garage? Why have fish in an aquarium? Why have a bird in a cage? Why have a horse or a donkey or a pony or a miniature horse? Is it an ornament for your field?
Princess passed on more than a dozen years ago, and we still talk about her. Everyone LOVED princess. She guarded our house and the old lady across the street's house, and yet my tiny four year old sister could go out, leash her and keep her away from the big bad meter reader lady. Many a midnight walks, she was my companion, and was rewarded at the end with a chocolate donut. (I know, the dog should have never made it to fourteen.) My dad talked to her every day before work and after coming home from work, and took care of her basic needs. My brother entered her in 4-H and did obedience training with her. Her tail was a weapon. Everyone coming and going would stop and talk to Princess. At any given time there were up to ten people living here.
And when her time came, there was a crowd of us at the vet saying good bye to her and being with her at the end.
The idea that people cannot be fond of or care for an animal that does not live inside their home is foreign to me. It is kind of like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it.
Every dog has a personality and bonds with its owners. Even outdoor dogs can be beloved by their families. I think the real losers are the people though, because owning outdoor dogs is very different than owning indoor dogs. I think people who own indoor dogs appreciate their expression and character a lot more than those who have a dog in the yard.
Dogs can certainly thrive without ever setting foot inside their owners house.
Why have cats in the yard? Why have rabbits in a cage in the garage? Why have fish in an aquarium? Why have a bird in a cage? Why have a horse or a donkey or a pony or a miniature horse? Is it an ornament for your field?
Princess passed on more than a dozen years ago, and we still talk about her. Everyone LOVED princess. She guarded our house and the old lady across the street's house, and yet my tiny four year old sister could go out, leash her and keep her away from the big bad meter reader lady. Many a midnight walks, she was my companion, and was rewarded at the end with a chocolate donut. (I know, the dog should have never made it to fourteen.) My dad talked to her every day before work and after coming home from work, and took care of her basic needs. My brother entered her in 4-H and did obedience training with her. Her tail was a weapon. Everyone coming and going would stop and talk to Princess. At any given time there were up to ten people living here.
And when her time came, there was a crowd of us at the vet saying good bye to her and being with her at the end.
The idea that people cannot be fond of or care for an animal that does not live inside their home is foreign to me. It is kind of like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it.
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree on things.
I have noticed, however, that whenever there is a thread on dogs being housed primarily outside or a thread about bad breeding or backyard breeding, you seem to jump in to defend those practices.
I don't know whether this is because you are taking these threads personal because your dogs do stay outside in their kennels a lot, or because you have a lot of dogs, or because you do breed but don't do Schutzhund or herding, but it does seem strange to me that you are so defensive on the subject.
I see a lot of defensiveness from you on this thread as well, along with anecdotal evidence of where outside dogs were loved and cared for even though they were not allowed in the house.
"That's like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it," is your argument. That's a far cry from the reality for most outdoor dogs. Where I live, most outdoor dogs are chained to wooden dog houses, the area they can move in having so much wear there's no grass left. They're outside no matter what the weather is. Their coats are matted and disgusting looking. Maybe once every couple weeks I see someone actually outside in the yard with the dog, doing yard work or plopping down a bowl of water, not taking the dog to 4-H or grooming or taking them for a walk. These dogs are not "thriving" as you suggest many outdoor dogs do. As a matter of fact, most outdoor dogs are not "thriving" because these are the conditions most outdoor dogs live in.
You are actually arguing that it is better for a dog that has been chained for x amount of its life to remain chained, rather than be unchained and be shown what it's like to be with people, to have a warm house to go into, and leashed walks to take with a person. It's an adjustment for the dog, and a big one, but dogs can and do adjust, and many rescued dogs, whether they've come from abusive homes or chained homes or homes where they've been neglected turn out to be some of the best dogs in a good home.
My Malinois was abused and kept in a garage, pumping out puppies. Do you seriously think it would be kinder for her to have remained in that place because that is "what she's known all her life"? If so, all I can say is, you've got to be kidding me!
There are extremists everywhere who want no animal to be owned, chained or otherwise, or who want no pain used at all, whether it comes from a stick to beat the dog with or a choke collar or even a head halter. Just because some extremists are against everything does not make it any more or less wrong to keep a dog on a chain its entire life, with little to no human interaction.
That's like saying, "100 years ago, kids were forced to work in the mines and factories by age 12, and girls were forced to marry older men by age 15 - but they turned out okay and there was nothing wrong with the way they lived. Hey, there are some people now who are saying it's cruel to expect a child to do certain chores for a specific number of hours a week. So, where do you draw the line? Either you're against everything and just let them be kids, or you have to concede that most kids 100 years ago were well loved and turned out just fine."
Sorry, it does not work that way.
I have noticed, however, that whenever there is a thread on dogs being housed primarily outside or a thread about bad breeding or backyard breeding, you seem to jump in to defend those practices.
I don't know whether this is because you are taking these threads personal because your dogs do stay outside in their kennels a lot, or because you have a lot of dogs, or because you do breed but don't do Schutzhund or herding, but it does seem strange to me that you are so defensive on the subject.
I see a lot of defensiveness from you on this thread as well, along with anecdotal evidence of where outside dogs were loved and cared for even though they were not allowed in the house.
"That's like saying that if the dog isn't allowed to share your bed, you really do not care about it," is your argument. That's a far cry from the reality for most outdoor dogs. Where I live, most outdoor dogs are chained to wooden dog houses, the area they can move in having so much wear there's no grass left. They're outside no matter what the weather is. Their coats are matted and disgusting looking. Maybe once every couple weeks I see someone actually outside in the yard with the dog, doing yard work or plopping down a bowl of water, not taking the dog to 4-H or grooming or taking them for a walk. These dogs are not "thriving" as you suggest many outdoor dogs do. As a matter of fact, most outdoor dogs are not "thriving" because these are the conditions most outdoor dogs live in.
You are actually arguing that it is better for a dog that has been chained for x amount of its life to remain chained, rather than be unchained and be shown what it's like to be with people, to have a warm house to go into, and leashed walks to take with a person. It's an adjustment for the dog, and a big one, but dogs can and do adjust, and many rescued dogs, whether they've come from abusive homes or chained homes or homes where they've been neglected turn out to be some of the best dogs in a good home.
My Malinois was abused and kept in a garage, pumping out puppies. Do you seriously think it would be kinder for her to have remained in that place because that is "what she's known all her life"? If so, all I can say is, you've got to be kidding me!
There are extremists everywhere who want no animal to be owned, chained or otherwise, or who want no pain used at all, whether it comes from a stick to beat the dog with or a choke collar or even a head halter. Just because some extremists are against everything does not make it any more or less wrong to keep a dog on a chain its entire life, with little to no human interaction.
That's like saying, "100 years ago, kids were forced to work in the mines and factories by age 12, and girls were forced to marry older men by age 15 - but they turned out okay and there was nothing wrong with the way they lived. Hey, there are some people now who are saying it's cruel to expect a child to do certain chores for a specific number of hours a week. So, where do you draw the line? Either you're against everything and just let them be kids, or you have to concede that most kids 100 years ago were well loved and turned out just fine."
Sorry, it does not work that way.
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Who exactly is being black and white? I am saying that it is wrong to suggest people break the law to steal a dog off a chain.
I do not think it is responsible to condone that thinking.
We do not know if the person reading the thread is an adult who can read the thread and choose for themselves or a kid whose passion might just win out over his better sense.
People make the statement that the people would not even notice the dog is gone. This is BS. I have lived with outdoor dogs and know that NO ONE can KNOW that nobody will miss the dog, unless the dog is clearly physically neglected/abandonned.
Not everyone that chains the dog out back, does nothing more with it.
This thread is disturbing because people are suggesting poisoning the puppies with birth control, and stealing the puppies. I am supposed to sit here and shut up because you want to agree to disagree.
There is irresponsibility all over the place, not just in the dregs of society that neglect and abuse their dogs. It is not just in the ne're-do-well's with the loose aggressive dog, and the husky mix bitch breeding over and over again. It is not just in hoarders homes where they let the number of animals overwhelm them and cannot managed to turn any away.
When I see people being irresponsible with advice, suggesting that people vandalize, supplement, steal, what have you, I am going to speak against that crap. And when I hear people saying that the owners wouldn't notice and wouldn't care, I have to step up there too and ask the question, how do you know?
I do have a lot of dogs and for sure, some over-zealous nutcase may BELIEVE that my dogs are misused by being outside while I am gone, or by being bred. I prefer to nip that garbage in the bud.
Nobody from the outside looking in would know the time and care I put into every one of my dogs. Your d--- right this kind of stuff makes me defensive. If ANYONE is mistreating a dog in a measureable way, where it is against the law, by all means go to the authorities, don't steal the dog or feed it birth control.
Historian, for your information, I do Rally, Obedience, Herding, Agility, and Therapy work with my dogs. I just got Rushie's therapy test, but I have been doing therapy with Arwen for years.
No I do not do Schutzhund with my dogs. I do not have any desire to do so. And that should not be the only measure to be used when considering whether or not to breed your dogs.
I do not think it is responsible to condone that thinking.
We do not know if the person reading the thread is an adult who can read the thread and choose for themselves or a kid whose passion might just win out over his better sense.
People make the statement that the people would not even notice the dog is gone. This is BS. I have lived with outdoor dogs and know that NO ONE can KNOW that nobody will miss the dog, unless the dog is clearly physically neglected/abandonned.
Not everyone that chains the dog out back, does nothing more with it.
This thread is disturbing because people are suggesting poisoning the puppies with birth control, and stealing the puppies. I am supposed to sit here and shut up because you want to agree to disagree.
There is irresponsibility all over the place, not just in the dregs of society that neglect and abuse their dogs. It is not just in the ne're-do-well's with the loose aggressive dog, and the husky mix bitch breeding over and over again. It is not just in hoarders homes where they let the number of animals overwhelm them and cannot managed to turn any away.
When I see people being irresponsible with advice, suggesting that people vandalize, supplement, steal, what have you, I am going to speak against that crap. And when I hear people saying that the owners wouldn't notice and wouldn't care, I have to step up there too and ask the question, how do you know?
I do have a lot of dogs and for sure, some over-zealous nutcase may BELIEVE that my dogs are misused by being outside while I am gone, or by being bred. I prefer to nip that garbage in the bud.
Nobody from the outside looking in would know the time and care I put into every one of my dogs. Your d--- right this kind of stuff makes me defensive. If ANYONE is mistreating a dog in a measureable way, where it is against the law, by all means go to the authorities, don't steal the dog or feed it birth control.
Historian, for your information, I do Rally, Obedience, Herding, Agility, and Therapy work with my dogs. I just got Rushie's therapy test, but I have been doing therapy with Arwen for years.
No I do not do Schutzhund with my dogs. I do not have any desire to do so. And that should not be the only measure to be used when considering whether or not to breed your dogs.
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Originally Posted By: StarryNite...
Your neighbors don't sound very intelligent to begin with so I am not sure logic will work on them. I am a fan of birth control in the treats idea, didn't know they made that
I agree with Sue. Condoning illegal behavior is wrong! If a dog's running loose, take him to the shelter. If a dog's being mistreated, report it to animal control.
Stealing an animial is illegal and anyone doing so should be arrested and prosecuted.
Suggesting that someone give an animal medication without an owner's permission is wrong. And anyone following this ill conceived advice should be arrested and prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license or whatever laws apply in this type of situation.
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I always find ethics discussions interesting.
For me it is not right to have a caged bird. I'd love a myna because they are fascinating but I don't think it is right to have one as a captive pet. I don't think it is right to turn a bird that has known captivity all of it's life loose to the wild either. Faced with that decision, I would keep the bird captive. Basically where this is going is to point out that moral or ethical choices are seldom so prettily black and white as "should" implies.
If I remember correctly, these people have a crappy history with dogs. They are planning to do something that horrifies many of us. Alternatives to make this action impossible have been discussed. None of them are totally "pretty." Any action the OP chooses to take will not be taken lightly. It's a dilemma - many choices you face in life are.
Years ago a neighbor decided to breed her purebred cat because her granddaughter wanted a kitten from that cat. It was an expensive outcome but the cat had one kitten, the kitten didn't live, the cat almost died. The cat was spayed and they bought the GD a kitten. Perhaps they will have a tragic first breeding with dead get and a spayed bitch.
If there is any "shoulds" to apply it is that we "should" recognize that moral / ethics questions when in anything but the abstract are usually quite complicated. How much do you impose your views/will on someone else? In this case, exercising their rights (letting pups multiply wildly), impacts the op at least indirectly by pumping more pups into a heavily over populated situation. Is it direct enough to justify preemptive action?
For me it is not right to have a caged bird. I'd love a myna because they are fascinating but I don't think it is right to have one as a captive pet. I don't think it is right to turn a bird that has known captivity all of it's life loose to the wild either. Faced with that decision, I would keep the bird captive. Basically where this is going is to point out that moral or ethical choices are seldom so prettily black and white as "should" implies.
If I remember correctly, these people have a crappy history with dogs. They are planning to do something that horrifies many of us. Alternatives to make this action impossible have been discussed. None of them are totally "pretty." Any action the OP chooses to take will not be taken lightly. It's a dilemma - many choices you face in life are.
Years ago a neighbor decided to breed her purebred cat because her granddaughter wanted a kitten from that cat. It was an expensive outcome but the cat had one kitten, the kitten didn't live, the cat almost died. The cat was spayed and they bought the GD a kitten. Perhaps they will have a tragic first breeding with dead get and a spayed bitch.
If there is any "shoulds" to apply it is that we "should" recognize that moral / ethics questions when in anything but the abstract are usually quite complicated. How much do you impose your views/will on someone else? In this case, exercising their rights (letting pups multiply wildly), impacts the op at least indirectly by pumping more pups into a heavily over populated situation. Is it direct enough to justify preemptive action?
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Caging a mynah bird today isn't illegal though that may change in the future. If you consider it's an immoral act to keep a bird caged, then it's up to you and your conscious to continue to keep it caged, allow it to fly around the house hoping it doesn't land on a hot stove or get wedged behind a heavy piece of furniture, give it to someone who can care for it in an appropriate aviary you deem large enough that it would be happy, or if it's legal, send it to the species land of origin to be set free albit it would probably meet an unpleasant death with its wild cousins.
I see nothing abstract about advocating that people take the law into their own hands to prevent a dog from becomming pregnant by giving it medication without the owner's permission or by stealing it. IMHO breaking the law, or urging others to break the law, is not justification to prevent a dog owner from doing something really stupid like breeding it.
Using moral/ethics abstracts can be used with any law on the books - robbery, rape, murder, stealing dogs, practicing medicine without a license, whatever. Who's morals? Who's ethics are you going to apply when advocating breaking laws that people don't like or wish to follow?
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This is discussion has raised a question for me, something I have been thinking about and need to look up for Missouri.
If there is a law for how many animals you can have on your property. Do the puppies count???
If you need a license to breed. AND you do not have one, doesnt the animal count come into play???
I would think so.
OP if you are still around following this thread. Which we have been all over the place, so you may not be.....You can look up how many animals are allowed, and inform them, breeding would put them over.
IF we all want to stay within the law, well let's find the law we need to stop this stinking idoit crap!!!!
They may need a license to do this in the OP's community.
If there is a law for how many animals you can have on your property. Do the puppies count???
If you need a license to breed. AND you do not have one, doesnt the animal count come into play???
I would think so.
OP if you are still around following this thread. Which we have been all over the place, so you may not be.....You can look up how many animals are allowed, and inform them, breeding would put them over.
IF we all want to stay within the law, well let's find the law we need to stop this stinking idoit crap!!!!
They may need a license to do this in the OP's community.
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Usually, the limit laws apply to dogs over 3 months old, and some over six months.
Usually, at least in Ohio, what they are doing is perfectly legal without a license or whatever, so long as the dogs are licensed no special permit would be needed to breed them. If you have dogs primarily for breeding or hunting, you need a kennel license. But that is Ohio. I have one because I am in business, and because it is cheaper here to have the kennel license than to buy licenses for each dog.
The law is kind of funny here, if you advertise puppies, than you are considered a breeder and need a kennel license. But most people put a sign in the front yard or drag the litter to a shopping plaza and give them away and they never need any license whatsoever. Well, they need dog licenses, but since they cannot come looking for unlicensed dogs, and the penalty is just a double license fee if they did come out for another reason and found the dog had no license. So, unless you are stupid like me and want to follow the law however stupid it is, you really do not need any type of license for this sort of thing in Ohio.
So typically, a limit law would not come into effect unless they started keeping the puppies.
Usually, at least in Ohio, what they are doing is perfectly legal without a license or whatever, so long as the dogs are licensed no special permit would be needed to breed them. If you have dogs primarily for breeding or hunting, you need a kennel license. But that is Ohio. I have one because I am in business, and because it is cheaper here to have the kennel license than to buy licenses for each dog.
The law is kind of funny here, if you advertise puppies, than you are considered a breeder and need a kennel license. But most people put a sign in the front yard or drag the litter to a shopping plaza and give them away and they never need any license whatsoever. Well, they need dog licenses, but since they cannot come looking for unlicensed dogs, and the penalty is just a double license fee if they did come out for another reason and found the dog had no license. So, unless you are stupid like me and want to follow the law however stupid it is, you really do not need any type of license for this sort of thing in Ohio.
So typically, a limit law would not come into effect unless they started keeping the puppies.
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I'm hoping the two puppies they're planning on breeding aren't related...?
People who won't sterilize their dogs, and don't know anything about them and want to breed more mutts...should be sterilized. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't care. OOOOO people make me so mad.
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People who won't sterilize their dogs, and don't know anything about them and want to breed more mutts...should be sterilized. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't care. OOOOO people make me so mad.
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Believe it or not, THAT would do something postive about the problem. I truly believe more of our attitudes about pets are inherited than we would like to believe. I am guessing nurture over nature, but sterilizing the human element will in time solve the problem.
Better yet, if you let it out that anyone who lets their mutts tie is mandatorily sterilized, it may make people a little more responsible.
Better yet, if you let it out that anyone who lets their mutts tie is mandatorily sterilized, it may make people a little more responsible.
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The problem is so huge... I have so many thoughts on it, many wouldn't agree with and maybe some would, I don't know...
I think it comes down to human responsibility and a bit of "meant to be" from the powers that be. Let me explain...
since the beginning of time we have tried to controll everything as human beings from people to every living thing. thinning out deer by giving hunting licenses, killing prairy dogs, and in the past killing off the wolf for farmers. In the end our control doesn't really change things much if you haven't noticed...besides killing off whole species only to come back and call then "extinct" and then think we did something great when they have enough to get off the ES list...
May be a puppy that saved a kids life bred from some "ignorant" backyard breeder. Then there are dogs suffering awfully from other backyard breeders we need to shut down... It seems like random chaos.... at least to me it does
I agree we need to stop these "backyard breeders" and pet stores should not sell pups but at the same time we need to look at ourselves as people and stop calling people who buy from pet stores "stupid" etc.... in fact the people that buy them, even though we don't want to support "puppy mills" are usually just every day good people just getting a puppy. They are not stupid or wrong or bad... Maybe the source is but the buyer isn't.
The blanket statements I believe need to stop. I have judged myself and learned that maybe I was wrong... I most likely was! If people have a male and female dog and they have pups and they find them good homes than maybe those pups grow up happy and healthy and some say "mutts" are the best dogs their are.
I just think we need to look at in individual basis and stop the constant judging of every single person who's animals breed. I agree we have too many in shelters and too many euthanized but that is mostly from irresponsible humans. So we need to look more at US as dog owners and raisers and not so much at the pups.
I think it is wrong to judge every pet store and every person buying from a pet store as well as people who have two great dogs and those dogs have pups. Not many are actual "breeders" where that is their life meaning showing, planning out litters, etc. .
And what about rescue shelters charging upwards of $200 for a dog? What average family can afford that? My hubby and I were in petsmart the other day and they had an adult tabby that was very sweet that my daughter wanted and we looked at the price "200 adoption fee" what is up with that? Even when they are spayed/neutured before they got them and 6+ years old... how do they expect to adopt them out at that fee?
I got Lulu from basically a family who had a male and female gsd and they had pups. The dad was registered and the mom was not since she was white and couldn't be "shown" so they never registered her. Lou, so far, is one of the most amazing dogs I have ever had the honor to share my life with and she is not show quality and didn't come from a reputable breeder, just a family with two GSD's who had pups. Her temperment is perfect she was housebroken in 4 days and so far has proved to be absolutely amazing as far as temperment and intelligence and beauty.
It's sort of like how we take one thing and then expand on it. Like thinking spanking your child is child abuse. Now, the belief is that if you get a pup from anyone other than someone who has a lineage of dogs and devotes their life to these dogs than the dogs shouldn't be in existence. I am not sure I am being clear here, I just don't think we can "control" as much as we would like to or should.
I have seen the puppy mills on tv that everyone is talking about and it is AWFUL! But EVERY pet store and every purebred dog not from a breeder who shows, and makes a business out of it is not a bad person.
I just think we need to stop trying to control so much and just help where help is needed... sorry, this is just my personal opinion...
I think it comes down to human responsibility and a bit of "meant to be" from the powers that be. Let me explain...
since the beginning of time we have tried to controll everything as human beings from people to every living thing. thinning out deer by giving hunting licenses, killing prairy dogs, and in the past killing off the wolf for farmers. In the end our control doesn't really change things much if you haven't noticed...besides killing off whole species only to come back and call then "extinct" and then think we did something great when they have enough to get off the ES list...
May be a puppy that saved a kids life bred from some "ignorant" backyard breeder. Then there are dogs suffering awfully from other backyard breeders we need to shut down... It seems like random chaos.... at least to me it does
I agree we need to stop these "backyard breeders" and pet stores should not sell pups but at the same time we need to look at ourselves as people and stop calling people who buy from pet stores "stupid" etc.... in fact the people that buy them, even though we don't want to support "puppy mills" are usually just every day good people just getting a puppy. They are not stupid or wrong or bad... Maybe the source is but the buyer isn't.
The blanket statements I believe need to stop. I have judged myself and learned that maybe I was wrong... I most likely was! If people have a male and female dog and they have pups and they find them good homes than maybe those pups grow up happy and healthy and some say "mutts" are the best dogs their are.
I just think we need to look at in individual basis and stop the constant judging of every single person who's animals breed. I agree we have too many in shelters and too many euthanized but that is mostly from irresponsible humans. So we need to look more at US as dog owners and raisers and not so much at the pups.
I think it is wrong to judge every pet store and every person buying from a pet store as well as people who have two great dogs and those dogs have pups. Not many are actual "breeders" where that is their life meaning showing, planning out litters, etc. .
And what about rescue shelters charging upwards of $200 for a dog? What average family can afford that? My hubby and I were in petsmart the other day and they had an adult tabby that was very sweet that my daughter wanted and we looked at the price "200 adoption fee" what is up with that? Even when they are spayed/neutured before they got them and 6+ years old... how do they expect to adopt them out at that fee?
I got Lulu from basically a family who had a male and female gsd and they had pups. The dad was registered and the mom was not since she was white and couldn't be "shown" so they never registered her. Lou, so far, is one of the most amazing dogs I have ever had the honor to share my life with and she is not show quality and didn't come from a reputable breeder, just a family with two GSD's who had pups. Her temperment is perfect she was housebroken in 4 days and so far has proved to be absolutely amazing as far as temperment and intelligence and beauty.
It's sort of like how we take one thing and then expand on it. Like thinking spanking your child is child abuse. Now, the belief is that if you get a pup from anyone other than someone who has a lineage of dogs and devotes their life to these dogs than the dogs shouldn't be in existence. I am not sure I am being clear here, I just don't think we can "control" as much as we would like to or should.
I have seen the puppy mills on tv that everyone is talking about and it is AWFUL! But EVERY pet store and every purebred dog not from a breeder who shows, and makes a business out of it is not a bad person.
I just think we need to stop trying to control so much and just help where help is needed... sorry, this is just my personal opinion...
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Sorry, my take on the caged birds issue is a bit different. Since I think there is a moral issue involved in having a caged bird, I do not have a bird such as a mynah. I do not support capturing wild birds to cage them, and I am uncomfortable about raising a captive born bird and maintaining it in captivity. Nor do I keep a captive crow although I think crows are amazing.
For me there are ethical issues about breeding unproven dogs when many dogs are euthanized for nothing more than lack of a home. When I look at the stats about how fast a population grows if left to breed without interfearance, I find it quite sobering.
This is an abstract discussion because only one person here is faced with the situation directly. The rest of us are tossing thoughts around about the issue. While it may not be true for anyone else on the board, I believe that I do not really know what action I will take unless I have been in that situation before. I can tell you what I have done in the past in a given situation, I can tell you some options that would come to mind, but I cannot tell you what I would do unless I am in the situaiton or have been in it before.
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Just remember you can't fix STUPID
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I don't believe you can just say "stupid" and go on with your life. That is judgement and you have to prove that judgement if you are to judge at all.
I have saved countless dogs in my life that I have found or been given by people, etc. Every one, save one, has gotten a wonderful home from my efforts. and that one that I don't believe did, I still go stalk out his house and watch it to see how the dog looks, etc. several months later. I know, I am a dog stalker, but it kills me that I may not have found that dog the home I thought I did, that maybe I didn't see the guy who got him as clearly as I should have and that I want to get the dog back and re-home him or keep him...
I just don't get the "breeding unproven dogs" unless you are talking about a breeder who has a lineage of dogs who are hostile or something. What IS proven in life? Does that mean if my mom and dad were horrible people that I will be one as well? Are dogs diff than us in that respect?
I just don't buy that. I think that every living being has an individual spirit and we are taught negative behaviors in the end. I think we all have a choice and I think the pups do as well.
I have saved countless dogs in my life that I have found or been given by people, etc. Every one, save one, has gotten a wonderful home from my efforts. and that one that I don't believe did, I still go stalk out his house and watch it to see how the dog looks, etc. several months later. I know, I am a dog stalker, but it kills me that I may not have found that dog the home I thought I did, that maybe I didn't see the guy who got him as clearly as I should have and that I want to get the dog back and re-home him or keep him...
I just don't get the "breeding unproven dogs" unless you are talking about a breeder who has a lineage of dogs who are hostile or something. What IS proven in life? Does that mean if my mom and dad were horrible people that I will be one as well? Are dogs diff than us in that respect?
I just don't buy that. I think that every living being has an individual spirit and we are taught negative behaviors in the end. I think we all have a choice and I think the pups do as well.
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StarryNite,
I understand what you are saying completely. Even dogs born in puppy mills, born from BYBs...even the lovable precious mutts, deserve a good home. That's all I want. I want every animal to have a safe, loving home. While I know that is not possible, it's my dream...I love ALL animals. I've never met an animal that I didn't love. Mind you I've been bit very severely by a dog before, I even loved him. All of them.
That's why it PAINS me inside and out realizing how many FANTASTIC animals will never have a chance to show people how amazing they are, because they get euth'd way too early in a shelter. They can never live up to what they were meant to be, some have suffered their whole lives and will never know...a loving touch...or how happy they'd feel when their special person first gets home. What makes me mad, is people letting their dogs breed rampantly just contributing over and over, making more animals when there is not even enough homes for the precious animals that are already here...getting murdered every single day. No matter what happens to me, no matter how far behind I am, no matter if I lost my job, my home, whatever...nothing will ever affect me and my sanity like the animals who get euthanized daily due to humans irresponsibility. It is making me crazy, because there is no way to stop it. Through hard work, we can reduce it, but never STOP it. It will just keep happening, and happening...I feel very helpless in the matter. I don't mean to sound too harsh, or judgemental, because in all actually I always feel somewhat bad for 'ignorant' people. Even ones who torture animals, I feel for them knowing they must have a tortured soul to be able to do something like that. Ignorant does not mean 'stupid' to me, it means they are either uneducated or unaware of certain things that I find VERY important. Meaning they don't know any better, or don't have the means to care even if they did know better. How much longer will animals have to suffer and die on our account? Animals who give us so much, and ask for very little in return. I see people take advantage of everything good in their lives over and over, and yes, I am upset about it. That will never change. I am not a bad person, though. Just overly sensitive, and way too compassionate for my own good.
I understand what you are saying completely. Even dogs born in puppy mills, born from BYBs...even the lovable precious mutts, deserve a good home. That's all I want. I want every animal to have a safe, loving home. While I know that is not possible, it's my dream...I love ALL animals. I've never met an animal that I didn't love. Mind you I've been bit very severely by a dog before, I even loved him. All of them.
That's why it PAINS me inside and out realizing how many FANTASTIC animals will never have a chance to show people how amazing they are, because they get euth'd way too early in a shelter. They can never live up to what they were meant to be, some have suffered their whole lives and will never know...a loving touch...or how happy they'd feel when their special person first gets home. What makes me mad, is people letting their dogs breed rampantly just contributing over and over, making more animals when there is not even enough homes for the precious animals that are already here...getting murdered every single day. No matter what happens to me, no matter how far behind I am, no matter if I lost my job, my home, whatever...nothing will ever affect me and my sanity like the animals who get euthanized daily due to humans irresponsibility. It is making me crazy, because there is no way to stop it. Through hard work, we can reduce it, but never STOP it. It will just keep happening, and happening...I feel very helpless in the matter. I don't mean to sound too harsh, or judgemental, because in all actually I always feel somewhat bad for 'ignorant' people. Even ones who torture animals, I feel for them knowing they must have a tortured soul to be able to do something like that. Ignorant does not mean 'stupid' to me, it means they are either uneducated or unaware of certain things that I find VERY important. Meaning they don't know any better, or don't have the means to care even if they did know better. How much longer will animals have to suffer and die on our account? Animals who give us so much, and ask for very little in return. I see people take advantage of everything good in their lives over and over, and yes, I am upset about it. That will never change. I am not a bad person, though. Just overly sensitive, and way too compassionate for my own good.
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Yah, I'm with ya Bella, I feel the same way and it's awful. I certainly don't think pets should have litter after litter but I think if the owner is responsible and makes sure the pups find great homes than that is not so bad. I also think the shelters should charge a lot less. When I went to the shelter here a few months back there were a whole bunch of people looking for dogs and about every single dog cage said "unavailable" for whatever reason, everyone was confused as to why they could not adopt any of the dogs. I also overheard another family talking who said they could not afford the fee (of $250!!!) and they left. I remember when I was a kid and it cost about $50 or less to adopt an animal out of the shelter. Thousands of animals are not getting the homes they deserve because of the outrageous fees the shelters and rescues charge
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I feel SO badly because I was out of town this weekend and someone called me to say they found Max, the dog I rescued and rehomed to the home I later found out "might not" (I don't know for sure) be a great place for him. He had got out of his fence AGAIN and the guy hasn't even bothered to change his tag from my name and number to his after 4 months! I was upset because I was out of town and couldn't come get him. I have tried to contact this guy multiple times and he won't respond to me even though we had a deal that he would keep in touch with me on Max's progress. *sigh* it's a moral delima for me. If someone calls again and he gets out again should I just take him home and not tell the guy or bring him back to the guy? I don't think I could bring him back to him in good concious... I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Anyway, I guess I am talking more about all the threads I have seen here where so many people call people "stupid" for buying dogs from pet stores or private people who aren't breeders. I am sure those dogs have great homes and not all people who breed their dogs are irresponsible as long as it's not a puppy mill or the dogs aren't mistreated. I know the overpopulation is a HUGE problem and it's awful and I think there are many diff. levels to solving it from lowering the prices to making them more readily available. The sad fact is that you can buy a puppy much cheaper on craigslist than at the pound and THIS is what people look at especially in today's economy. I don't think it's right at all but if the shelters and rescues would make the pets more affordable than maybe they would all find homes!
I feel SO badly because I was out of town this weekend and someone called me to say they found Max, the dog I rescued and rehomed to the home I later found out "might not" (I don't know for sure) be a great place for him. He had got out of his fence AGAIN and the guy hasn't even bothered to change his tag from my name and number to his after 4 months! I was upset because I was out of town and couldn't come get him. I have tried to contact this guy multiple times and he won't respond to me even though we had a deal that he would keep in touch with me on Max's progress. *sigh* it's a moral delima for me. If someone calls again and he gets out again should I just take him home and not tell the guy or bring him back to the guy? I don't think I could bring him back to him in good concious... I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Anyway, I guess I am talking more about all the threads I have seen here where so many people call people "stupid" for buying dogs from pet stores or private people who aren't breeders. I am sure those dogs have great homes and not all people who breed their dogs are irresponsible as long as it's not a puppy mill or the dogs aren't mistreated. I know the overpopulation is a HUGE problem and it's awful and I think there are many diff. levels to solving it from lowering the prices to making them more readily available. The sad fact is that you can buy a puppy much cheaper on craigslist than at the pound and THIS is what people look at especially in today's economy. I don't think it's right at all but if the shelters and rescues would make the pets more affordable than maybe they would all find homes!
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StarryNite - I think things may be a little different in your immediate geographical area, but throughout the south and southeast as well as large parts of the midwest, there is no shortage of dogs. Shelters are full to the gills, rescues are full to the gills, and a majority of dogs surrendered to shelters die there, including thousands of perfectly healthy puppies.
As far as adoption fees - no, that's not the reason animals don't get homes. With very rare exception, rescues and shelters charge an adoption fee based on the vetting the animal has received. An animal with a $200 adoption fee has likely received vetting that would cost the adopter much more than that if they had to do it out of pocket. If an adopter can't afford the adoption fee, they also can't afford what it would cost to vaccinate, hw test (or FIV test for cats), deworm, spay/neuter etc. for a free puppy or kitten. Giving them one for free just adds another unaltered unvetted animal into the population which is counterproductive if you're trying to reduce the number of animals dying in shelters. And rescues are run by volunteers on donations - few get everything they spend on an animal back in the adoption fee, but they have to get enough to keep the rescue going or they can't save anymore animals. I live where spays/neuters and vetting are relatively inexpensive but my group still spends several hundred dollars on every animal we rescue, considerably more when you start averaging out the cost of even a single case of heartworms or parvo.
As far as adoption fees - no, that's not the reason animals don't get homes. With very rare exception, rescues and shelters charge an adoption fee based on the vetting the animal has received. An animal with a $200 adoption fee has likely received vetting that would cost the adopter much more than that if they had to do it out of pocket. If an adopter can't afford the adoption fee, they also can't afford what it would cost to vaccinate, hw test (or FIV test for cats), deworm, spay/neuter etc. for a free puppy or kitten. Giving them one for free just adds another unaltered unvetted animal into the population which is counterproductive if you're trying to reduce the number of animals dying in shelters. And rescues are run by volunteers on donations - few get everything they spend on an animal back in the adoption fee, but they have to get enough to keep the rescue going or they can't save anymore animals. I live where spays/neuters and vetting are relatively inexpensive but my group still spends several hundred dollars on every animal we rescue, considerably more when you start averaging out the cost of even a single case of heartworms or parvo.
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Except that nearly all the puppies in petstores DO come from puppy mills, so...
Nope, not so much! Come on down to KY and I can take you to shelters were every animal in the place is free! One shelter in particular has a sign out front saying that if no one is there, just come on in and take what you want. Know what their euth rate is? Close to 100%. Giving their animals away is making their problem worse, not better, because those animals are leaving the shelter unaltered and their descendents are making sure it stays full.
You seem like a caring person but one who hasn't had much experience in this area. I would encourage you to find out more about shelters, rescues, and pet overpopulation - it's causes and its solutions. What you discover might surprise you.
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