I'm sure someone who is more knowledgeable will come along and post a more complete answer, but until then I'll give it a shot.

1. Formal training - I assume by this you mean some kind of obedience training. IMHO this is a good thing for all GSD's, even if you don't intend to do anything else with them. I would recommend you look for a good trainer in your area. Maybe a preliminary obedience class. This will enhance your bond with Daisy, make her easier to live with and help channel any excess energy she may have. It would also help to insure you have control over her when she is off leash.

2. Self-defense training - you mean like K-9 kung fu? I assume you're referring to some kind of protection training. If you are interested in this, I would strongly encourage you to find and visit a local schutzhund club, as part of the sport involves a protection phase, where the dog is expected to guard, bite and then out a person on command. However, understand that schutzhund requires a tremendous time commitment. This not something you can do once a week for 6 weeks and your done. Also, a lot of dogs do not have the drives and temperament to be successful in schutzhund. And finally schutzhund is a sport, so there is no guarantee that a dog who has been trained in schutzhund will actually take a bite out of someone not on a field and wearing a sleeve. Nevertheless, if you are interested in doing protection work, IMHO this is your best bet. And even if you don't end up doing protection, obedience is another phase of schutzhund and you can get a lot of training help from the club.

3. Wife and daughter also controlling dog - They should then participate in any training you do with the dog. Obedience training is as much about training you as it is about training your dog. Therefore, even if you spend a lot of time teaching your dog basic obedience, that doesn't mean that other family members can simply step in and exercise the same control over the dog.

4. GSD knowing instinctively what to do - yes GSD's can sometimes have a 6th sense about people and you should be proud of a 5 month old puppy who barked and stood her ground when confronted by a suspicious person. However, it would be a mistake to assume that your dog is a "natural" and without any training would instinctively protect you and your family if they were seriously threatened. Barking is one thing, controlled aggression (and you want any aggression to be controlled) is something very different and cannot really be achieved without extensive training. It is also a lot to ask of a dog that they instinctively be able to differentiate the good guys from the bad guys. Ultimately, that is your job. The best a dog can do is obey your commands. They should not be expected to assess the situation on their own and act independently.

 

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to look into the puppy training and then obedience training and see how it goes.

I remember seeing a video a while back about a little girl who was being confronted by a man in a park and then she gave a command and the GSD attacked the person. It was controlled and simulated of course but it helped convince me even more about why I thought a GSD was perfect for us. I'd like something similar to be able to happen. If say my daughter is playing outside with her neighborhood friends and Daisy is around her, and a suspicious person approaches my daughter, I'd love for my daughter to be able to call for Daisy and me and have help right away. Of course my daughter would never be alone in any place especially at a young age but I think we know what I'm trying to describe.

I didn't know about the sport you mentioned. I'm going to look that up and research it. If she does well on the basic training it might convince me that she needs higher caliber training so I can enroll her in that. If it turns out to just be me that pays attention then I'll have to train my family first lol

I was just so happy with her, I felt like I had the best GSD in the world and I wanted to hurry up and get her the best training possible

 

What you want...will take years of training and then years of upkeep. The dog needs to have the right temperament to be able to not make that decision itself, and the attack on/off needs to be trained by people that know what they're doing.

What you saw in your puppy...still doesn't say what the dog would actually do in an attack. At the end of the day...your dog barked at a friendly person and the person didn't attack or confront you in any way that was anything but friendly. I would really discourage your dog from barking at anything that seems "weird" to you because eventually the dog will start making the decisions about what is weird and what isn't without you.

Dogs are very black/white. Although you say the dog ignored the kids and everyone else and barked at the "right person." That is something that is easily transferred to the "wrong person" that you don't want your dog barking at.

Also the situation you want your dog to “react in” is extremely dangerous. Say your daughter is just having fun or rough housing with someone, and she screams…without proper training, your dog will react to the aggressor that is “play fighting” with your daughter. That is something that happens all the time. And starting actual protection training will give the dog confidence to truly bite a human rather than just try to get them off with small tugs or just a “soft grab” of a body part. The level of training required for the situation you’re talking about…will take a huge commitment, and a huge understanding of the liability you will then have in your house. That being said…I train both of my dogs in Schutzhund and accept that liability.

 

I wish we had a Like button. Well said.

 

I'd like to ditto on that. I'm a serving police officer, and though a lot of the police dogs are extremely well trained, all the officers know that even though the dogs are trained to bark on command, we can't just approach and pet some of the dogs.

Most of them are pretty good, and only do it on command, but theres some (more specifically ones trained for armed offenders) that are rougher than others. It takes ALOT of training to get them to that level.

 

Thanks guys for all the replies. I'm going to look more closely into training cause I know I'm not capable of doing it myself at all.

In my mind she did the right thing and responded just how I would have wanted her to but I do see all the points being brought up, especially about the one with my daughter playing and screaming as part of a game. I already tell my daughter to not pretend fight with her, or to let her chase her around the house yet. I don't want to give her mixed signals and let her think that it's okay to chase my daughter and nip at her or anyone else. We try to make sure that no one overly excites her and we don't let anyone play fight with her or run around so she can chase them. If Daisy is going to chase anything it's going to be a ball or a frisbee or whatever toy it is we are playing with and we want her to chase it.

Like I said I was just excited and happy that she responded the way she did. I always make it a point to shh her when she barks at something insignificant but only if I'm sure of what that is. When she barks, I go out and check to see what she's barking at and give it a good look. I want her to notify me, I don't want her to bark because the dog 2 houses down is barking. I read and heard stories from my friends with hunting dogs like labs that told me it's the only way to teach them what you want them to bark. You have to be okay when they bark at something you wanted them to and say good girl and give them praise and a treat but if they bark at something else then you need to correct them. One friend who lives in a really big farm described it as he wants them to bark when anything larger than them approaches the house, and sit still if it's just a pair of squirrels and cats having a turf war. He also doesn't want them to bark when they're hunting so they don't alert the animals. I just want her to bark when she sees or notices something I don't and she's calling me over.

Thanks again everyone, the help I get here is amazing!

 

I have never protection trained my gsds (although I did import one from Germany SchH3) and for 40 years I haven't worried about my family's security.

Yes, I agree with the special protection training is a whole other level and I agree that individual dogs all have their strengths and weaknesses, but I also firmly believe that the average GSD is more than up for family protection detail.

My first GSD (American show lines) was a floppy eared mammoth that seemed to attract toddlers to him like flies. They would all grab onto him with these huge bear hugs, while the Moms were generally freaking out. The dog just loved people though, so we were not worried. Except during his 11 years of life there were two people he didn't like. Once there was a knock on our door and suddenly the toddler lover was quietly lunging at this one guy's throat. Both times the people left so quickly that we never knew if they actually were a danger to us or not, but honestly I don't care. Small price to pay if he was wrong.


I've noticed over the years that often the number of barks in the series can tell you how big the threat is. One to four barks (so bark, bark, bark. Pause. bark, bark bark.) is probably something like a chipmunk or a maybe a strange smell. Refrains over 9 barks are serious threats. Once we had some robbers try to force their way through our front door and I counted something like 17 barks in the refrain (there might have been more.) I don't think we train the dogs to do this, but we could be unconsciously rewarding them somehow.

The current gsd (Czech working / American show and a trauma out rescue) does not do small alarms at all. Actually, she didn't even bark for the first three months we had her. We think they had a bark color on her. So now when she does we respond by getting up and checking out what she wants to warn us about. The happiness in her eyes and her joyful body language tells us just how important this ritual is to her. She does tend to abuse it a little, she likes to do a parameter check a little after sunset and she will use fake barking to get us off the sofa if we don't pick up on her first few hints, but we don't have the heart to call her on it.

So, I think you are on the right track for what you want to achieve. Yes, a protection trained gsd is a whole other world, but I think the guys who life in that world might lose track a little bit of just how protective your average gsd can be naturally when the circumstances really warrant it.

Good luck!

(p.s. funny story -- The SchH3 we imported decided that we were not up for the responsibilities of owning a protection trained dog about two weeks into our ownership. We were walking in the middle of an arts festival and I got the German commands mixed up, so rather than telling her to go heel, I told her to attack! She whipped her head around towards mine and gave me the "you moron" look. Before that she had trying so hard to figure out how to be the perfect SchH dog and was very frustrated by our ignorance. After that though, she decided that she was just another pet dog and we all settled down into a very happy family pack. Thank god she was smarter than I was about it. )

 

SchH of any level does not equal a protection dog. It might show that the dog has the ability to be a protection dog, but doesn't really mean anything more in the real world.

The "you moron" look was probably more of a "huh? Wheres the sleeve?" if you must personify it.

Owning a protection dog is a significant step above own a sport dog. The amount of training required is above and beyond most people are willing to commit to or can afford. Granted those reading this board may be those who are willing to commit.

Most GSD's are going to be a visual and vocal deterrent to anyone who may want to cause you harm/steal your stuff. You will always find exceptions to the rule, but I would guess these dogs, assuming they are not trained, are not good dogs with any stranger. My main point being, don't get lulled into a false sense of security just because you own a GSD.

A man once told me his security system was 4 chihuahua's. 2 gated near the front door, 2 gated near the rear door. As he said "They wouldn't do much to stop anyone, but they would wake the neighborhood if someone tried to get in"

 

The "you moron" look was probably more of a "huh? Wheres the sleeve?" if you must personify it.

Lol...I wanted to say that!

And yeah, it's pretty true. 95% of Schutzhund trained dogs won't touch a person without a sleeve...especially without the threat actually coming at them/being on their territory. The "passive alert/attack" is also probably one of the hardest things to train into a dog...

True protection, having the ability to get civil with a person, is genetic. If you didn't do the training yourself...you'll never know what kind of dog you have.

Luckily...a big bark and a big GSD will scare away 99% of threats without any training.

 

Dog attack on a passive person is done why? I still don't get that scenario.
We had to do this once at a protection challenge, my dog had never ever trained for it. When I told him packen, he went after the decoy, but was a bit confused because the decoy had his back to us and was several yards away, posing no threat. Once the decoy moved, then my dog did launch, but wouldn't have otherwise. I think it is an unnatural situation. And had that decoy had a gun I don't think my dog would have made it to him.

 

I think for police there's a case for un-cooperative, possibly armed.

 

Easiest scenario would be someone that maybe is robbing your home without realizing there is a dog, or you not being there with the dog. You get home, you see the person, they see the dog and get defensive and not offensive, it would be important to have your dog be able to activate (even for a bark and hold) on a person that isn't actively attacking or being threatening to the dog.

 

Yes, a bark and hold would be a given, but someone just standing with back turned posing no threat...and yes, commanding bite to hold but that dog would have to be lightening fast and go for the throat if the threat was real. Most thugs are armed.

 

Yes, a bark and hold would be a given, but someone just standing with back turned posing no threat...and yes, commanding bite to hold but that dog would have to be lightening fast and go for the throat if the threat was real. Most thugs are armed.

Actually...not sure if most people committing robbery are armed.

But...I train with a cop and he's said that if you have a holstered weapon, there is a 21 foot rule. If a human comes at you from less than 21 feet away, they can get to you before you draw the weapon and fire. Now...change the person to a dog, the distance would greatly increase. And very few homes are that large.

Anyways, many of these things aren't trained for a real life scenario. They're fun. I think it's nice that I can activate my dog and then calm him down easily.

As my trainer told me...imagine walking down the street, and seeing someone "weird" on the other side of the street looking at you/coming towards you/just saying something you don't like. You can activate your dog (quietly) and tell that person that you don't have a friendly dog and they should just stay back...basically act as if your dog is just reactive to everyone. It will keep that person away from you...no matter what their intentions are. Then you get past the person, tell the dog to heel, and continue on your walk.

Let's be serious...most of the things we train for in protection, none of us will ever run into. I make a lot of life decisions that are bigger than owning a GSD that make sure I'm not a victim of a crime.

 

The 21' rule was demonstrated repeatedly at my Sheriff's department training and again in my CCL class.

Even for a trained professional it is difficult to beat the assailant if you are drawing from concealment.

 

the 21 foot rule presumes a deadly threat like a knife. Dogs are pretty deadly but not as fast to kill as a knife. Dogs are more shredders if youre fighting back aggressively. Realistically, any cop could pull a gun out AFTER being severely assaulted by a dog. Dogs arent gonna eat both arms up bad enough to not be able to pull the gun out within 10 seconds. Id like to see a protection trained dog go for the hands, while I go for my gun.

 

the 21 foot rule presumes a deadly threat like a knife. Dogs are pretty deadly but not as fast to kill as a knife. Dogs are more shredders if youre fighting back aggressively. Realistically, any cop could pull a gun out AFTER being severely assaulted by a dog. Dogs arent gonna eat both arms up bad enough to not be able to pull the gun out within 10 seconds. Id like to see a protection trained dog go for the hands, while I go for my gun.

I don’t think that’s so. If you think about what a “sport dog” is taught to bite…it’s a presented sleeve. The motion of presenting a sleeve, turns the dog into prey, and the dog bites the moving object. So assuming the dog is going towards a person, the moment that person reaches for something, the dog will more than likely (if trained properly) bite the body part the person is reaching with. Then…the dog starts fighting/tugging…not sure how easily someone would be able to grab/reach for something with a 80lbs GSD hanging off of one of their arms. Plus with the pain/action…I don’t see them thinking enough to start reaching with the other arm/hand for the same weapon.

I've personally never shot a gun...but from what I believe, I would imagine it would be very hard to shoot a dog that is running full speed at you. Not only due to the speed/size of the dog...but also due to the stress of knowing the dog is coming to get you. I've been on the sleeve end of a bark and hold...and I can tell you this, it's not a comfortable position. It's something you have to get used to...and that's with a trained dog that is going to target the sleeve...it's still not fun having that dog barking at your face.

This will also provide time for the handler to either get out of the situation, or to confront the bad guy and try to restrain him with the help of the dog.

There are a lot of ways that a dog is helpful and a passive attack can be useful…it’s just something that’s difficult to teach, and you really do need the right dog.

 

The dogs job is not to seek and destroy. In many cases, it's to buy you time. Why is a man with a knife more dangerous inside 21 feet? Because of the *time* it takes to draw a firearm. Now, how fast is a man with a knife while dealing with a dog? Reasonably slower. In a life and death situation, time is everything.

I recently decoyed a police and military k9 trial. Interestingly enough, the majority of the bites were on a passive person. If they are unnecessary then why do so many?

 

The dog cannot distinguish between a man standing there passively holding a flashlight and one standing calmly pointing a firearm at an officer or other person.

If the man isn't wildly waving his arms and shouting while brandishing a firearm, the dog doesn't likely know the difference.

They are trained to attack, subdue, hold in place, etc. a seemingly (to the dog) passive person. That person though, may not be so passive at all but pose a real, albeit stationary threat to the officer.

 

You start with your dog leashed and your friend, plaing tug-of-war, first a ball on a rope. If he holds it at his back - she would bark at him at his front. Her prize is the ball, your friend should give it away to her. Praise verbally your dog, ask her to hold for longer. Your friend should be able to stroke her on her head, touch her with his feet on both sides - she must hold. Train her outing. Her prize is the ball, your friend should give it away to her, and you throw it for her immediately. Then you use a pad for the same tug-of-war game. After that 7 adjustable pads: 1 for belly, 2 for arms, 2 for legs, 1 to fix at the shoulder blades, 1 for bottom, and your friend running away

, with good timing you witll have them all in your hands in less than 15 minutes. Then you train her to rip off the pad only from the front, and only from the back by command ( the main target for PP dog is the person's back, as the dog is vulnerable from the front in majority of cases). Some dogs take it as a friendly game, but some start taking it seriously from the very beginning. In order to avoid your friend being bruised, I think, you better stay with the ball on a rope before finding a trainer.

 

It sounds like he did very well with that exercise. But the fact is...the was still a suit there. A lot of dogs actually don't get whigged out by a suit from what I've seen. The dog's I've worked with...the first time they see a suit...they just bite it just like they would a sleeve anyways.

So your dog did go for the original decoy that he had just bit originally? That’s what I would expect out of most dogs. I think that’s an extremely difficult test that they put the dog through, especially one that hasn’t trained for that.

As difficult as it is to teach a dog a directed glove retrieve for AKC utility…it would be very hard to teach a dog a directive passive or even active alert. I think it’s extremely high level stuff to teach a dog to go after a passive threat rather than an active one…especially if the dog has always been trained on an active threat.

 

We trained directionals when I did his ecollar foundation work so that probably helped.
I sent him to the passive(back turned) decoy, the other one was in the blind but not yet threatening.
We came in 5th, I was pretty proud of that placement as the other competitors were all hosting club members, and train these scenarios all the time. The clubs have some pretty cool events and train together/share decoys. Mostly Dutch/Mal's

 

I'm at work, and can't view the video that David Taggart posted, but just wanted to say - please please please PLEASE!!! DON'T train protection training on you own (or with a friend).

Find a qualified trainer, not someone who advertises that they can train any dog in protection training, but someone who actually trains SchH, IPO, PSA, or police dogs, and knows how to start a young dog and bring her along. This takes YEARS! And to start, you will need a dog with the correct temperaments and drive, and even more important to have the correct temperaments and drives if you want your daughter to be able to participate in the training.

Alert barking is all you should expect from a five month old. You should step in, thank her, and by your attitude and actions show her that you have now taken control of the situation, and she should relax and stand down.

A five month old is a baby, and not mentally mature enough to have the confidence to face a threat and deal with it. No more than you would expect your daughter to stand up to a threat and deal with it until she has a) reached adulthood, b) has been bought up to have confidence in her abilitities and strenghts, and c) has had some personal defense training (could be firearm or martial arts, for example). Same general idea for what your expectations for Daisy should be.

Your pup should grow up feeling safe, knowing that Dad is in charge and will take care of things. She should not grow up feeling that keeping the pack safe is her job, that is a mental/emotional burden she is too young to take on. If saddled with this burden, she will become reactive and suspicious of EVERYTHING, and a reactive, fearful dog is absolutely no fun to own.

So ask around, find a trainer, have her evaluated for suitability for protection training, and take it slow.

 

Thank you all for the amazing responses, and to whomever moved the post from the puppy place to here.

I am really more interested in this sport and aspect of training than ever and I think I'll make a trip to the library to read some books about it and research what I can here.

My wife and I both want to put her in training so we're definitely going to do that and we'll start with the basic obedience and puppy classes first and then see how that goes. Our daughter will also take part in the training classes cause we want all of us to be able to give her commands correctly.

I've never owned a GSD before but she is amazing us each day with how smart and perfect she is for what we wanted in a dog. I think it would even be a reward for her to get her in some good professional training so she can really push herself and accomplish more things than just being a dog that lives in the backyard like lots of people normally do. If it turns out that she's not cut out for the full sport then that's fine as well, we'll do what we can and what she responds well to and I'll always be happy with her.

 

For basic protection you need.

1. Alert barking = turning the dog on/off

2. Biting, fighting while on the bite and out on command

3. Basic obedience and control

With the right dog and the right instruction this shouldnt take too long if you wait until the dog is 14-18 months. You will need to maintain the training.

Obedience you can do yourself, protection work you need a decoy. Once the dog is trained she should be fine with every other month or so protection brush up.

The most important factor in all of this is do you have the right dog? You can buy from the best bloodlines and still not get a dog capable of real protection nevermind if you have a ByB dog or ASL.

Having the right dog is 75% of the battle.

 

By having the right dog, do you mean a dog who isn't afraid of anything? The alpha amongst the dogs in the pack? The dog who is aggressively curious rather than just friendly curious?

My dog is really calm when she's alone or with us. She's not aggressive, she doesn't even nip at us like I know she should. I don't know if it's because she's not at the nipping stage yet or she just doesn't want to. I've only let her play with one other dog her size so far and she was the submissive one in their games. She's also timid and scared when it comes to sudden loud noises and things like that. She was a terrified little puppy (3 months) during the 4th of July fireworks.

What are the traits that the right type of dog will have and show?

 

A fearful dog is not a candidate for protection work.

 

I think u have a good watch dog. To help her please train her to eat only from food bowl (it is going to be a long tedious process! I am working on it). It is important because thieves often poison watch dogs before house breaking. It has happened with two of my friends.

Also work of recall. No point trying to teach protection stuff to ur dog. It is a specialized advance training and it requires right genetics. Given, ur dogs' behavior i think it serve purpose of a good alarm and deterrent. Only teach food control and recall (these two are life savers)

 

Barking alarm dog, possibly. Protection dog, no.