Sire is west German working lines, now the kennel is in the US...dam is half Czech (her dam) and half West German

I can tell because I know what kennels are where...just time and exposure and a good memory

Lee

 

Thank you! That's very helpful. Do you have any good resources for the differences between the lines? Any websites or books? The article I'm reading now indicates that there are temperament/threshhold/drive differences in the different working lines, and I'd love to learn more about that.

Thanks,
Carey

 

You need pedigree information to determine what lines a dog comes from, that really is the only way. You just have to start learning how to read pedigrees. Kennel names can point of lineage, as can the dogs themselves. For example, it is common knowledge that Lord vom Gleisdreieck is of East German blood. So, if you see him in a pedigree, you know there is some DDR blood in the dog.

Pedigrees - German Shepherd Guide

German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide

Along with Chris Wild's great article, I also like this article:

http://www.unlimitedgsd.com/Portals/UnlimitedGSD/types.pdf

There is also Linda Shaw's article on the GSD Family:

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

Hope those resources help! You can also browse the article collection on the German Shepherd Guide... sometimes I forget what I've put in there.

Articles - German Shepherd Guide

 

Thank you very much for these links! I really appreciate it!

Carey

 

Hi i had a question on how to tell.I recently bought a pup and was told he's east. We had an american GSD but she passed in January from DM. I recently went on a site asking for help on potty training and mouthing. Im also going to a local training place but i was looking for extra ideas.This broke out on a few people telling me i don't have an east GSD theres no such thing.Even though i was just asking for a little help. the akc paper from mom says her name is emma sophie vom drachenhaus and dad is Yeager von nikheim. I'm only looking more into this cause I'm getting really upset anyone i talk to is telling me how stupid i was to buy him do to them needing to be working dogs not family.And now i have people telling me i have no clue and he's not a East german shepherd

 

Can you post a picture of your dog? Not that I can tell East from West from a picture. I'm just wondering what is making people tell you he's not the dog you thought he was. Plus why do they think he could not be a family dog?
Basically ALL GSD's were originally working dogs. You did not buy a Labrador you bought a GSD. Since you had one previously Im sure you know what your getting into.
They are intense, protective and need a great deal of exercise, but they are excellent family dogs loyal, loving and wanting to please.
Very intrested in seeing your pup

 

East German is DDR. It means behind the Wall. The dogs were bred for specific purpose, guard, and it was a fairly closed program. Due to inability to use dogs outside the eastern block. If I am making crazy broad unsupportable generalizations. DDR dogs are lower in prey drive, higher in defensive drive, suspicious, large, big boned, slow to mature.

But there are very few "true" DDR dogs anymore. The lines have been mixed a lot.

I looked at dads pedigree. And I am not good enough to know where his lineage is from. But most everything is few generations back. Titling wise.

It makes no difference now. You have the pup. You love the pup.

 

The easiest way to determine if a dog is west german or ddr is to look at the dog's registration on pedigreedatabase.
So if you see a dog born in, say, 1985 and it has "SZ" with a bunch of numbers behind it, there's a 99% chance it's west german. If you see "DDR" with a bunch of numbers behind it, it's east german. This isn't 100% accurate, but I'd bet the house on it.
If you see a "z" between a first name and a name you could only hope to pronounce correctly, it's almost always a Czech dog or variation thereof.
Temperament, drive, attitude, strengths and weaknesses of each line of the breed is a totally different matter and i'll leave that to the experts.

 

I have East European line GSD(DDR). East Germany is a motherland to many breeding lines: Czech, Austrian, Hungarian, Polish and Belorussian GSDs. The main difference between East and West - is their size (hits the top of criteria and often oversized) and bulky appearance. One of reasons besides the fact that a true GSD ( "If the dog is not a working dog - it is not a German Shepherd" - Max von Stephanitz ) was preserved by Berlin wall from modification, EE GSD are almost free from HD, that is why the breeders are so much interested in them.

 

EE GSDs are very high in both - and prey, and protection drives, they are super as search dogs, they wouldn't be bread for Army if they weren't . But they are not suitable for Schutzhund competition, because they are too heavy and less agile than their Western brothers. Western GSD originally was bred to heard sheep, and East was bred to heard bulls.

 

Bull herding, definitely.

 

They are not bread for the army...bull herding??...hm

 

Don't believe the bull on Internet. Dogs are evaluated by experts on dog shows and IPO competitions. If you believe Wikipedia - Russian GSD may have blue eyes and was cross-bred with mastiffs ( saying nothing about breeding dogs to guard multiple prisons), Chinese recreation is a half-wolf, not a GSD at all, and the majority of EE GSDs do not fit classic GSD standards. Only Czech and DDR dogs are good, but theey are not completely good, because... Do you sense it? That is the war between certain breeders and breeding centres: in order to get your niche in business you have to blacken your competitors. All of it nothing but speculation.
All GSDs in all countries of former Soviet block were bred to work in the Army and Police, and show line was never developed. They are absolutely the same as Western German dogs in everything except one thing - their larger size, and it is not known yet what to do with it. But as far as they don't have any skeletal problems and EE line is free from HD - Germany is very interested in refreshing the blood of present breeding lines. Such programs are many now days ://vombanachk9.homestead.com/about_us.html and US is a participant. The absence of information in pedigrees partly is replaced by DNA tests, whenever they were carried - the results show that nearly all EE lines are the descendants of pre-war German lines in East Germany. It is just the matter of evaluating these dogs in shows and Schutz competitions, and it takes time. My present dog was brought from Austria, I've got her just by chance. Five years ago German and Austrian Police turned to more Malinois and the litter went to public sales. Lucy is a girl of my dream. She is terribly obedient, but, her intellectual vigorocity would be a nightmare to some other owner.

 

I'm sorry. I am not sure what you are saying Vom Banach is going? Can you explain it better?

 

As someone from Eastern Europe...I can tell you through first hand experience that the dogs are definitely not free of HD. The Russians during the Soviet era weren't really known for quality. As someone who's father was a Lieutenant in the Red Army, I will also tell you that the dogs are basically western German dogs that were bred larger with little or no care about temperament. As long as the dog bit, it was a good dog. Health wasn't a concern because you can always make more and you always had more to replace any that couldn't perform the work anymore.

Today, unless you're importing, I'd wager that the majority of Eastern European Shepherds are just larger dogs that were bred in America. They are known to be a bit more civil, and a bit less friendly than their German counterparts. My family will also tell you that the German dogs are "more intelligent" but I think that has a lot to do with biddability and trainability rather than actual intelligence. There is also probably a natural loss of drive, more than likely prey, due to the increase in size.

To put it simply, my family was very happy I got German Shepherds instead of EE Shepherds.

 

David there are so many inaccuracies and general statements that are as much hype as truth. east Germany had a Seiger conformation show every year, and it wasn't for military or police dogs....lol
The hips of early hip dogs were probably marginally better than West, but not nowhere near HD free breeding as propaganda promotes.....
Hey Folks, but this is very interesting reading.

 

So not all the OS dogs come from the pet market? Interesting.

 

.

Please do not carry this argument over into this thread.

 

Please, read it, a bit of history DDR History


The dog in world: East European Shepherd dogs

They are healthy dogs: Czech/DDR German Shepherds

 

A true Eastern European Shepherd would not be considered a GSD. It's highly unlikely there would be a pedigree behind it, and if you did import one that has a pedigree, I don't believe you'd be able to register it as a GSD with the AKC.

The "breed" was split off a long time ago. There is likely to be other more heartier/larger cold weather breeds in its back ground. They are larger dogs, but if walking down the street you would probably think it's a GSD.

You can almost think of them as King Shepherds except they were developed 80 years ago and the line is recognized mostly by the soviet block countries. To my knowledge it is not a recognized breed by the accepted reputable registries.

End of the day, they look like GSD, but cannot be bred to a GSD and still consider he dog purebred as there will not be a pedigree.

 

And David, provide reputable links, not just random websites that are created by random people.

 

Eastern European Shepherds are NOT DDR German Shepherds. A quick google search can tell anyone that.

So back to the original question...

 

Only way to really tell is pedigree.

Most people that have been around enough of them can tell certain facial features and other things in the body that point to the over arching line. But that is still not an exact science as especially in the United states, the lines are constantly being mixed.

 

According to those links, neither "type" are free from hip dysplasia. So not sure what the argument is. And according to the EE link, the dogs were mixed with GSD and other local dogs. So not a GSD at all, a different breed all together.

Still wonder what vom Banach has to do with any of it. She uses a mix of lines, Czech, DDR, and west German.

 

Here is a nice site on Czech/DDR: East German Shepherds | German Shepherd Breeder MA

Saying nothing that they took the best dogs as a trophy after WW II ended to start Belarus breeding centres RUSSIAN SHEPHERD TRYNEE IN MIAMI FLORIDA

 

There are DNA tests that can differentiate between the lines within GSDs?

Is that true?

 

I don't think so, Gwen. There was a study that showed the genetic make up of the lines of GSDs and how closely they were similar or not, but there is no test as far as I know.

 

Thanks. I was thinking wowzers to find the individual genetic makers at that level of minute differences would be truly amazing and a boon for human medical science too.

 

Here's the study
http://www.rsv2000.de/export/sites/...a/downloads/health-concerns/german-shepherd-lines-are-genetically-different.pdf