Civil when describing a GSD means willing to bite for real, without equipment (bite sleeve)

 

Good old thread where Anne (Vandal) was commenting
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4071-hardness-civil-aggression-protection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html

Very good layman definition
"Civil aggression is the dog's inherent level of suspicion towards humans."

(Civil Aggression in German Shepherds | German Shepherds | Adoption Policies | Pets for Adoption | Montana German Shepherd Rescue)

 

CarolinaRose, My thoughts are similar to yours but adding to it total neutrality/aloofness and social being more a willingness to interact appropriately with strangers. Guess I have some reading to do with the links Jax provided.

 

I don't necessarily think the terms are mutually exclusive.

I understand "civil" to mean a dogs level of inherent suspicion. So a very civil dog is quicker to recognize and react to a threat.

A dog can be civil and social.

 

An ideal GSD is both social - able to navigate all sorts of human interactions and environments safely and appropriately -- and be civil , able to draw on the aggressive powers to protect , fight , again appropriately.
Total balance .
There is no trigger happy posturing , no "picture"

this is the dog that I like to have

 

So can civil mean neutral?

 

A civil dog can be neutral in a given situation if they perceive no threat. But they are not synonymous.

Best explanation of civility was told to me this way.

Not civil- guy sitting at bar with girlfriend, new dude walks in, pushing first guy off stool and kisses his girlfriend. First guy walks away.

Mid civil- first guy punches new guy after getting pushed off stool.

Very civil- first guy meets new guy at the door when he sees him eyeball his girlfriend and punches him before he gets all the way inside.

It's a level and how quick a threat is perceived and reacted to. If the new guy came in, sat down with his buddies and had a drink, then a stable, but even highly civil dog would have remained neutral.

Civil dogs are not "reactive" dogs, they just assess and act on a threat quicker than non civil dogs. But they can be perfectly stable and social dogs.

 

A civil dog can be neutral in a given situation if they perceive no threat. But they are not synonymous.

Best explanation of civility was told to me this way.

Not civil- guy sitting at bar with girlfriend, new dude walks in, pushing first guy off stool and kisses his girlfriend. First guy walks away.

Mid civil- first guy punches new guy after getting pushed off stool.

Very civil- first guy meets new guy at the door when he sees him eyeball his girlfriend and punches him before he gets all the way inside.

I've just discovered my boyfriend is very civil. Certainly much more so than my dog.

 

^ perfect description. thanks

 

A civil dog can absolutely be a social dog, be good with kids, small dogs and cats. A civil dog brings up the fight when he discerns a threat....many people see this and call it "defense" and claim it is fear based. I think that term - defense - is the most misunderstood and misused term in the protection training phase.....defense is NOT CIVIL AGGRESSION.

Nowadays, many groups, training helpers etc cannot discern the difference themselves - or if they do - dismiss teh dog as not being able to get titled, and recommend it be sold as a police dog - which should be both civil and social.

Lee

 

Interesting, because I see defense- civil- fear being thrown around all the time and I always have to look at the dog in front of me rather than go off of the "lingo". Because everyone has a slightly different definition. Partly based on the type of dog they see, or like.

I guess I'd define civil as bringing the fight for real to a threat. The issues come in with the dog's own definition of threat. A high defense or maybe fearful dog could bring wrath to a non-threat if he's also civil, and that's a scary dog. That might make a good border patrol or prison guard dog, but not so great for most sport handlers.

But few people care for a high defense, civil dog these days, at least in sport.

 

The way I see it, like everything else there are degrees. IMO, a "civil" dog is one that will engage a person for real, with no bite equipment present and little provocation. There are threshold levels and a civil dog with lower thresholds will engage faster than a dog with a higher threshold. Just as there are degrees of how "social" a dog is.

We have all seen dogs that "very social" or "super social." A very social dog is a friendly dog, one that likes interaction with people. A dog that seeks out attention in a friendly manner. IMHO, usually very social dogs or dogs with a high level of being social are generally not "very civil."

A truly civil dog does not need to perceive a threat to bite, it just has to have it's "rules" broken or space invaded. The dog may not be threatened at all. Many civil dogs do not bark or put on big shows of aggression before they bite. You may get a growl, but you may not. You may simply just get a look, and then get bit.

I will use my dog as an example, Boomer is fairly social. I'd say a moderate degree of socialness. Maybe a 5 on a scale of 1-10. He is "social" enough to be around people and work in large groups or crowds. However, he is not social enough to be petted by strangers, handled by anyone else like a vet tech for example. He is a "civil" dog and will bite with little provocation and warning. No big displays of aggression, maybe a growl. To rate his degree of "civilness," I'd say he is a 7 on a scale of 10.

A civil dog will bite with little provocation. Eye contact is all it takes to make Boomer key on someone. I know immediately if some one has caught his attention and is staring him down or just making eye contact. This is not a threat and civil is not always related to a perceived threat by the dog, this is simply a challenge. Like the example above of the guy in the bar, sometimes eye contact is enough to start a fight.

In describing dogs we often use terms that are in contrast to how we use them when describing people, civil is a good example.

Civil and social are terms to describe temperament traits in dogs. I look at them like a see saw when evaluating dogs. I test and evaluate dogs and use a chart to rate drives: prey, hunt, defense, fight, civil and social. Socialness is important to me, so is civil. For what I do, we need dogs that have a higher degree of "civilness."

If you were to view civil and social as two ends of a see saw, as civil goes up, social goes down and vice versa. The more social dogs or overly social dogs have a lower degree of being civil.

This is in relation to GSD's. If we start talking about Malinois then it changes. :laugh: They can be very social and civil.

 

"A truly civil dog does not need to perceive a threat to bite, it just has to have it's "rules" broken or space invaded. The dog may not be threatened at all. Many civil dogs do not bark or put on big shows of aggression before they bite. You may get a growl, but you may not. You may simply just get a look, and then get bit."

Well said. That explains it much better than simple "threat". Because some dogs bite because it feels good or the "picture" for the dog was right for a bite. And these same dogs might really like people, and be quite social. Might mostly apply to malinois types.

SlamDunc, out of curiosity, can you explain how "defense" drive factors into civil-social or how that relates to thresholds? Or is defense drive also threshold- I know I'm throwing out a bunch of lingo here, and sorry about that, but trying to make sense of things I hear about dogs and see in dogs.

 

Great conversation and links to read! For simply pet owners such as myself, please indulge my non-trainer thoughts! My first shepherd was very what I think of as "social"; he enjoyed our kids and their friends ( all were young to teen age). He would greet them with a wag of the tail, and come for a pet. He usually sat in the room where the kids congregated. But he did not have that labrador type of "pant, pant, pant, let me lick your faces and plop down on your laps, and make a pest of myself". Social but reserved. He was also the unofficial mascot of the volunteer fire department, and went to the meetings of the junior firefighters with my kids. It never entered anyone's mind to be afraid of that big German Shepherd. The best dog! My second shepherd was what I, as a pet owner, would consider "civil"; she was incredibly bonded to me, and when I walked her, if we encountered a neighbor, she would sit quietly at my side and kind of keep a relaxed attitude but ignore the neighbor. People admired her, but they were not as apt to reach out and pet her, as people did with my first shepherd. She was also the best dog in many regards. Every dog is different, but I appreciated them both. I am not sure if this makes any sense to the trainers/experts here!

 

A civil dog is a dog that will actively take on a threat without equipment, so "bite for real". These dogs are not necessarily low threshold or going to bite quickly with little provocation. A civil dog can most definitely be social.

 

So if a dog enjoys being around people, likes kids, will socialize when out and about but is capable of gauging a real threat and will act to defend, with no hesitation on a bite, what would it be?

 

Different people certainly have different explanations for different words.....no wonder it is so hard to describe dogs correctly in this sport.

I certainly do not think a dog who is civil will bite for no reason - that is not a stable dog....

Lee

 

I hope my post didn't come off as me saying "civil" is biting for no reason?

IME, there are different degrees of "civil" just like any temperament trait. A very civil dog will bite with little provocation. It may be eye contact causing the dog to react. With Boomer, you will be warned if you pet his head or mess with his hair. He is a very stable dog, and he will play ball with anyone all day. But that doesn't make you friends or part of his pack, that simply makes you a pitching machine that throws his toy. I've had people think after 20 minutes of being around him and throwing his toy, they were friends. I warn people, those don't listen will be warned by Boomer. Ignore his warning and you will most certainly get bit.

Just like people, some dogs are quicker to react or have lower thresholds. It comes in varying degrees. Can a social dog be "civil", of course. Can a civil dog be social, sure. IME, very civil dogs are rarely very social.

Of course, there are exceptions. We have a Malinois in my unit. One of my favorite dogs and an outstanding Patrol dog with a lot of real bites. Very serious bites, very committed and very serious when turned on. The dog is suer social with most people. To annoy his handler I will walk up to his car, open the rear door and take his dog out and play with him. This is unusual for most Patrol dogs, they are very territorial and protective in the car. Because I have an odd sense of humour, I will take this dog out when a bunch of cops are around and give him belly rubs in the street. No handler likes to see their "tough" patrol dogs rolling around on their back getting belly rubs. What I find the funniest is the look on the handlers face, especially the first time. I can muzzle fight this dog, and we put a lot of pressure on the dogs in muzzle fighting. I will have the handler "out" and down his dog next to me, after a two minute muzzle fight and start to rub his belly. The dog will relax, roll on his back and let me rub his belly. The instant he gets his bite command he flips over and goes right back to being seriously aggressive. That is a very social dog, very stable and very "civil." There are few dogs that have high levels of both.

IME, a truly civil dog will bite for real, with out equipment present and it does not have to recognize a threat or feel threatened to bite. If a dog has to be threatened to bite for real, then that it has a high threshold and not very civil.

 

part of the reason that "civil" dogs are not as common is that they are not reactive, do not bite for minor irritations , are not flashy prey oriented ,
and for sport , need to have a decoy that will bring on the pressure for THIS part of the character to be exposed.

Quote---
explains it much better than simple "threat". Because some dogs bite because it feels good or the "picture" for the dog was right for a bite"

Hold on --- civil , ACTIVE aggression , doesn't even have to have anything to do with reaction to threat or biting.
The civil dog wants to control , assert, dominate a situation - no threat necessary, no bite necessary,
imposing authority and power and amping up till results are there. Herding , prime example , as long as you don't think of herding as the prey border collie chase type which is common to herding instinct trials.

The dog has to be stable.
Initially the dog will respond as he feels he needs to , which is why prey decoy work will never bring out the tenacious fight , the push to dominate the decoy , not grab the booty. The dog plays with the playful decoy.

As the aggressor escalates , so does the dog .

 

Exactly Carmen!!!! A dog who bites without cause is a liablity!!!! Alert and guard at stimulus but not bite unless necessary........

Pam understands as well!

Lee

 

Carmen nailed it! A stable, thinking dog. ACTIVE aggression--not defense. These dogs are so incredibly difficult to find now. And even more difficult to find a decoy who understands and can work them. Mine has high levels of appropriate aggression, yet is perfectly social in any situation I place him. He will play with kids, strangers in crowded stores and a decoy once off the field. Incredible mental clarity. And a couch potato in the house. It took me many, many years to find what I was looking for because so many breeders are following the sport market with dogs that are so out of balance with prey drive that it will even cover varying degrees of poor nerve on the field. Many are hectic, possess little to no active aggression, and are certainly not good examples of the breed standard. Sadly, many breeders and buyers alike rush to latest fad just as is seen in the conformation world. Thankfully, there are a few good breeders who understand what they are doing and maintain the course in spite of the difficulties the present market presents.

 

We certainly do have a lot of different interpretations of civil.

When I describe a dog as civil, it is similar to "sharp." Not "sharp/shy" which would be a fear biter. Dogs that I would describe as "civil" most definitely have active aggression, but they are not the dogs that you let strangers walk up and pet.

Again, I see varying degrees of how "civil" a dog may be. Just like there are varying degrees of all the drives. A dog can react aggressively to a stimuli, but that is not always a very civil dog, IMHO.

 

sharp and civil aren't one and the same.

sharpness is still reactive -- the choice is fight or flight -- the better dog choosing the fight .

this form of sharp looks impressive , oozing edge .

a stable civil dog is confident to the point of being carefree - no concerns , no worries , no tensions, and certainly no panic.

 

Wow, there's lots of interesting, and maybe even slightly contradicting, information in here. No wonder I'm so hazing on what Civil means.

But now I might be even more confused as to what I'm looking for in my dog. Certainly, in a GSD, the willingness to engage in a fight and bite for real is important. It's why we have a GSD instead of a Golden Retriever. However, depending on the interpretation of the word "civil", and thus the traits being bred for, it seems as though you could have the most reliable partner ever, or a liability who perceives threats that aren't there (maybe even picks fights on occasion?) and takes matters into their own "paws".

The see-saw analogy is a good one. Clearly you don't want one who's all one and none of the other. 100% social and 0% civil and you have a Golden in a GSD suit. 100% civil and 0% social? Well that don't sound like fun at all. a 50/50 balance would probably be best, but if I had to pick one to have more of, I think I'd rather have more Social. Like 75/25. Enjoys meeting/playing with people, but aware of suspicious behavior and willing to engage and bite - If it comes down to it.

A few of the posts made me nervous. The idea that a dog could respond with a bite not only to a (perceived) threat but even a (perceived) challenge! As a friend and member of the family who I want to join me out in the world, I would not want to have to always have to worry about whether or not someone is looking at my dog wrong. I wouldn't want to hang out with a person who was like that, why would I tolerate that in my dog?

I understand that whether or not a dog has solid nerves play a part in this. Dogs who aren't fully confident in themselves might feel they have something to prove, and might react faster and more frequently and a dog who's so confident in their ability that, like someone else said

a stable civil dog is confident to the point of being carefree - no concerns , no worries , no tensions, and certainly no panic.

The further I got in this thread, and the more people explained their definition of civil and the various levels of threshold, the more I felt that "civil" could (possibly?) be more accurately described as a "confrontation threshold".

Dogs who are "very civil" you could say be a "very low" confrontation threshold. They are very willing, even eager, to engage in an altercation. Or even start one. Looking at the world through a "TRY ME" lens.

Dogs who have "average civility" would have a moderate confrontation threshold. They'll hold back more than the "very civil", but will step in sooner than the "low civil".

Which leaves "low civility", which would have a high confrontation threshold. They'll try to avoid an altercation if possible, but will respond if it comes to it.

Do I more or less have that right?

I know I know, I'm trying to redefine the term. But clearly there's much confusion over what this term REALLY is supposed to mean. I feel calling this trait something that could be understood more intuitively could GREATLY help to clear up some confusion.

ASSUMING that I more or less understand the previous posts, I think this is what everyone's been kinda sorta saying, right? And if so, I feel I'd rather have a med to low civil (or med to high confrontational threshold . . .it's gonna be a thing!), so I don't have to worry about whether or not some ignorant-but-otherwise-well-meaning person tries to pet my dog (or look him in the eye!) when I'm not looking.

Please correct me anywhere I am wrong - up to and including my whole post.

 

We have different meanings when using the same words. I find it hard to describe a dog's temperament with one word. A dog may be calm, stable and confident, but not civil. A dog may be calm, confident, stable and civil. As I said there are varying degrees of "civil", IMO.

When evaluating a dog, if I describe the dog as "civil", that will be a dog that you would be careful approaching. I might readily approach and pet a civil dog as described by some on this thread.

I would say that Boomer is civil. He is also stable, calm and confident. But, he is not allowing people to walk up and pet him. He is absolutely not threatened nor concerned. He is a "rise to the occasion" dog as you described earlier, but he is a very serious dog. He takes eye contact as a challenge and not a threat, he will move directly to the person and match the challenge. No big aggressive display, just all business. I have a couple of examples where he has been nose to nose with people and it was very serious. One was a felony suspect that was on the ground fighting two nacotics Detectives. Boomer stood on his chest after the guy kicked him in the head and wrapped his knees around his head. Boomer stared into his eyes, nose to nose. The guy was given two more chances to comply and still refused. The ER Doctor thought the guys arm was broken. I'd say Boomer was calm, confident, stable, civil and in an eerily quiet rage as he stood on the suspect waiting for his signal.

To me that is civil.

I see civil and social as traits that in most dogs have an inverse relationship. Naturally, a balance is ideal. But, highly social and highly civil is very rare in GSD's. For what I do, civil is very important, more important than social. I like both and I value both, but I tip the scales to the civil side. It is like prey and defense. I like high amounts of both, but slightly more prey than defense and more civil than social. I'm talking about LE K-9s. For my personal dogs, I like more social and less civil. Again, just my opinion and my experience.

I may very well have been using these terms wrong for years.

 

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Keep up the discussion, it's been very interesting. I was going to post a bunch of replies, but then my computer froze/crashed and now I don't have time before work. Be back later today.

 

A Civil dog with low threshold and clear-headedness ( a dog that does not get so hyped up in the fight or get so frustrated in prey that they re-direct and bite anything, anybody that is in their line of sight) - can be a good, stable, dependable pet also. So a person shouldn't be scared away from a breeder that advertises their dogs as being Civil, but at the same time, as this discussion shows, a person will need to discuss with the breeder what THEY mean by Civil, as it has different meanings to different people.

Gryffon is the social and civil type of Dog - Agree that is rare. He comes to work with me, loves people! Loves petting, attention, brings his toys to people and jams them into their hands trying to give them a hint. No issues walking him thorugh town and getting petted by strangers and little kids.

I've worked him with some LE dog trainers, so he has been tested some, and put through some realistic scenarios - I hesitate to really bring him out as an example, because I sure don't want to pretend I'm in the same league as Slamdunc and other professional LE dog handlers, and the dogs that are actually doing LE, but I get some pretty interesting comments from the decoys that work him.

 

"A Civil dog with low threshold and clear-headedness ( a dog that does not get so hyped up in the fight or get so frustrated in prey that they re-direct and bite anything, anybody that is in their line of sight) - can be a good, stable, dependable pet also"

Castlemaid I think you meant to say high thresholds .

a low threshold dog is always on the verge of reacting

I think the word Civil is inappropriately used and if I saw it in an ad I would tend to second guess that the person meant to promote what some on the forum call a maligator --- the pop eyed foaming beast ready to tear flesh from bone. (not bringing malinois in to the discussion) .

Go for the BALANCED , secure , confident dog .

 

Oh, yes, I meant to say high-threshold - sorry!

 

Yikes and now I am pretty sure I confused the two terms civil and sharp. BAAAAHHHH!

 

So can we clarify?

dog A-friendly, likes people, enjoys interaction and will make friends,reacts to an honest threat by warning/barking/growling and will bite without hesitation when faced with a real threat.

dog B-aloof with strangers, does not interact with them, will tolerate on command, reacts little to outside stimulus but always watchful,little warning given and will bite quickly under real/perceived threat.

dog C-reacts to everything, focuses on movement or noise quickly, will bite with little or no warning at any invasion of space

Which is civil? Which is social? Which is better?
I have tried to describe a range of dogs I commonly see/deal with. And I am curious what the average person would be better served by.

 

So can we clarify?

dog A-friendly, likes people, enjoys interaction and will make friends,reacts to an honest threat by warning/barking/growling and will bite without hesitation when faced with a real threat.

dog B-aloof with strangers, does not interact with them, will tolerate on command, reacts little to outside stimulus but always watchful,little warning given and will bite quickly under real/perceived threat.

dog C-reacts to everything, focuses on movement or noise quickly, will bite with little or no warning at any invasion of space

Which is civil? Which is social? Which is better?
I have tried to describe a range of dogs I commonly see/deal with. And I am curious what the average person would be better served by.

Neutral dog -- friends are the family circle

everyone else is just there - no negative and no positive interaction selected by dog

dog has an overall commanding presence --

totally aware -- think of Secret Service Agents

no confusion as to who they are "with"
LOYALTY

won't be an instant "I'll work for you because you want to play ball" dog when transferred to new handler . Thinking specifically of some of the harder , civil , gsd , that were imported for PD/ LE and the dogs looked flat -- give them a period of BONDING and wowser -- This was evident in some of the EARLY imported DDR dogs and EARLY Czech dogs .

It was a (re) learning curve !!! for evaluators .

This type is vanishing as breeding is done to meet popular markets

for Personal Protection this is the group I would select from.