I'm a reformed anti-prong person.

The purely positive people (not all mind you) can be pretty rude and abusive themselves. They have no problem with berating a perfect stranger and then fuss over a dog they also have no clue about.

 

Seriously makes me wonder, how far is too far when it comes to dogs. Some may say kicking your dog off the couch or bed is totally abusive, your dog ahould have every single right your child should have because they are fur babies, HA! ya right, my dogs "sensitive feelings" dont outweigh my kids. I saw a jogging fani pack on google images were you can slip your little dog into your ass pockets and jog away...the dogs then hangs off your backside while you run, that to me is a bit much.

 

thank you David , I saw the "copy" and that is not what I wanted. I tried to delete that mess and timed out . so thanks , perfect

 

And here it is,

 

View attachment 181018



And here it is,

Oh wow, really, people?? Lol that poor dog

 

hey , I think that dog can get shaken baby syndrome.

Dogs In Canada had an image , don't recall whether it was an advert or a cover image -- a good looking young man taking his dog for a walk , a golden retriever maybe around 40 pounds plus . sounds good so far , but where was the doggy , in a back pack , not four on the floor getting exercise .
I participated in Woofstock 2 years consecutive , NO MORE , this kind of silly stuff gets promoted . I don't think that is a good thing at all ! We are so urbanized, so removed from the nature of animals , we are creating rules and regs that are not even in the BEST interest of the animals.
Soon dogs will have sippy cups so that they have access to water at all times . Not joking. Meanwhile , when driving , if we take a sip of water or coffee while waiting for the light to change we can get dinged for distracted driving.

 

sometimes dogs and kids are born or living in situations we don't like. I try to do better by showing better and helping when I can. School stuff, community service stuff, help a kid that has fallen on his bike stuff, fix a flat stuff, donate time and food for healthy breakfast at school stuff, basically lend a hand when it is needed or asked for.

Beyond that I am of the opinion people need to mind their own freakin business. To a degree anyway. If some parent thinks a bag of dorritos is acceptable for dinner, that really isn't your business. There are things you can do to try and help, but legislating and banning are not, or should not be the way to do it.

If a parent spanks their kid and you don't like it, tough **** for you. Lead by example, try and have a conversation, do what YOU feel you need to do, but legislation, CPS, abuse charges and all that other stuff shouldn't be an option.

If a dog has a prong collar on, you might not like it, tough. Feel bad and do all the things you think you need to do, but legislation, bans and calling animal control should NOT be an option.

Beyond sexual abuse, starvation or regular physical punishments that are leaving marks, none of that other stuff should be able to be "defined" as abusive except in someone's mind. Otherwise everything is open for interpretation and those screaming the loudest now really won't like it when the screaming is pointed at them. I can promise that everyone does something regularly in their lives that other people would take offense to.

Banning prong collars won't stop abuse. Most truly abused dogs have never seen a prong collar, or an electric collar.

 

People have to remember, Quebec has a bad record in terms of animal husbandry, especially companion animals. The whole Draft can be read here, http://www.hsi.org/assets/pdfs/comments_on_draft_regulations.pdf There is just so much of it that just will not happen, dogs and cats must see daylight 8 hours a day, rests between breeding cycles, whether dogs and cats can be in the same part of a kennel. Certainly will knock out the bad breeders and people who think they can run a doggy day care out of their house.

 

you don't think these ideas and sentiments won't impact on sport training ---

 

I saw something about this Quebec thing on Friday but didn't get to read it. Actually, I was at a show and *gasp* we were using prongs to control my friends super friendly 90lb lab that thinks the floor is for sissies.

So my question is, is the ban a ban on possession (like Manitoba's ban on possession of radar detectors:smirk or a ban on the USE of the prong/ecollar?

Second, do they define what a prong or ecollar is? An e collar can be something that gives off a high pitch sound, a vibration, a citronella spray or an electric shock.

The only good thing that could possibly come out of passing this ban is that it effectively bans e-fences.

 

Thank you Carmen and boomer11 for your feedback on the neck tech. I'm more than happy with my HS prong, but I've looked at that collar as a PC option, lol. My first impression was that it's a completely different correction, with an awkward fit. Now I don't have to waste my money by seeing it first hand.

 

@crackem,

How true is that, most abused dog are lucky to get a collar.

 

no it is not just Quebec . Over the last month on radio talk show (1010) which I have on while driving around there was a very emotional , no more than that , fanatic, man phoning in from Toronto who was organizing some personal agenda for legislation on dog care -- with great vigour he went on to say that no dogs should be outside in the cold , their faces would get cold , their ears get frost bite. ????

meanwhile , a shameful reality is that people are sleeping on the streets - laying on heat vents in front of City Hall . Many have psychological problems and are difficult to bring indoors or have them receive help (legislation) .


there was a court case in Oshawa Jan/Feb this year -- trainer charged - his lawyer made a statement saying that all the guy did was to use time honored training practices that have been common for the last 60 or so years . I don't know if there were other issues . I don't know if the case is over and don't know the results.

 

It already has:

From the AWDF home page:

Important information received from the FCI Working Dog Commission to the AWDF regarding a rules change for the 2014 FCI IPO World Championship in Sweden.

Stick hits will be removed from all exercises in the protection phase.

___________________________________________

The FCI world IPO championship will be in Sweden next year. No whips, sticks, e-collars or prong collars will be allowed on the championship grounds. This includes vendors as well as competitors.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/406754-no-stick-hits-fci-championships.html

 

I belonged to a facebook group of moms in my town and i remember a post from a women who was claiming her neighbours 6 year old child was walking to school alone. I followed the post and within 10 minutes she had people going absolutely crazy with child abuse accusations and withing half an hour she had a group of people ready to all call child services and report this women they did not know, they did not know if this other womans post was accurate, this lady managed to stir up a witch hunt within half an hour. My point is the power of the wrong information in an idiots hands could be very powerful, and scary.

 

If the ban effectively happens, I think it'll be interesting to see the results five or ten years down the line.

I guess my view on it overall is the same as the federalist idea of the various states in the U.S. acting as little lab experiments in democracy. What happens if we allow X? What happens if we ban Y? Let's see what the effects are in society!

If it works, other states might choose to follow that model. If it doesn't, let it be a cautionary tale to the world.

Of course, I get to have the luxury of a detached perspective because it doesn't affect me in the slightest. I might feel differently if it did. But since I do have the privilege of being unaffected, my view is pretty much "well hey, let's go ahead and see what happens, then."

 

Ok, call me a trouble maker, but if I believed the prong collar was a more humane choice over any other (which I do, if the dog is pulling too hard) and I was slapped with a fine, I'd challenge it in court. Just because some AR people are able to sway public opinion doesn't mean we have to accept it.

 

Ok, call me a trouble maker, but if I believed the prong collar was a more humane choice over any other (which I do, if the dog is pulling too hard) and I was slapped with a fine, I'd challenge it in court.

That would work about as well as trying to get out of a traffic ticket by claiming to be a member of an independent federation not subject to U.S. laws (which is a not-uncommon attempted defense around here, actually).

And just like those people, you'd be given your ten minutes to ramble on the witness stand, while the judge filled out her electric bill and the bailiffs checked their text messages and the prosecutors let their interns play at cross-examination, and at the end of the ten minutes you'd still have to pay your fine.

The system is what it is. Once a thing goes into law, making a principled stand doesn't do anything besides bore everybody whose job it is to do this stuff and add about $200 of court costs to your bill.

 

My current pup is very handler hard. My wife cannot walk her without a prong, she is not strong enough nor does she have the presence to effectively handle the dog without it. Their are many others like her, Im sure they will be staying in the backyard alot more often.

What will the end result be? Breeding softer dogs that require no more then a stern word to correct them? Its already happening.
Soon owning, training and breeding truly strong dogs will be something you do on your private property behind tall fences.

"you do not need fear and pain to train dogs" It sounds so noble and true and is always where the argument ends. Ask those same people to show the results of their training..and you get a border collie doing parlor tricks for cookies if that.

 

It's the old 'divide and conquer' method of controlling the masses. I personally would prefer to sit on the fence, and antagonize both sides

 

Passauf! Packen! Auass!
watch! Get him! Out! Dog! Are you crazy I like getting the bad guy!
Owner! Here have a treat! Dog! No thanks I already have one!
Lol Bill

 

As far as I know E-collars are banned in some states in Australia but legislation does not say prong collars are illegal (I think).

Here in Sydney, you rarely if ever see someone using an e-collar or prong collar, I have only ever seen 1 person use a prong collar which she used on her American Staffy, she ordered it from Europe and it looked like something out of medieval times!

 

What is the state of protection sports in Australia? Almost non existent.

David Winners

 

Well, knowing how stuff likes to spread west, I am thankful I found a site that will ship a prong to me. I now have three stainless steel ones and a black one in the mail. Figured it would be easier to get them before SK got stupid.

 

The German Shepherd Dog Leagues only train for showing, obedience and herding, they don't train for schutzhund. There seems to be a schutzhund club set up across a couple of States, but I don't know anything about them and I've never met anyone who has trained in schutzhund, the only dogs that are schutzhund trained as far as I am aware are the stud dogs coming from overseas, mainly Europe and the USA. So there is not a lot of choice for protection sports available to us. Shame, because I would love to learn this and feel it would be a great confidence boast to the dog and enable a firm bond between owner and dog.

 

I see the US military uses choke chains arguable which one is more effective though I know which I personally prefer.
You say technically, does that mean the reality is somewhat different? The guys at Von Liche and some other kennels I can think of who supply the US mil and others use all those tools when they train.

 

I see the US military uses choke chains arguable which one is more effective though I know which I personally prefer.
You say technically, does that mean the reality is somewhat different?

Every kennel I know of has some training gear stashed in a locker somewhere. Don't know if they use it. I've never witnessed such a thing.

Every picture of my military dogs you can find includes a choke chain or flat collar. I would never contemplate implicating myself or others in unauthorized use of training equipment.

VLK dogs don't fall under military rules until purchased by the military. VLK trainers don't fall under military rules because they are civilians.

 

I believe that people acting like sheep will guarantee people being treated like sheep, so if I see an opportunity to stand up for myself, I'll take it. However, if it was possession of PCP, I'd fold, lol. I'm talking about stupid 'laws' that have no merit - and this isn't really a 'law' - just an offence you'd be fined over.

 

All the VLK dogs are off leash trained. Most MWDs are on leash trained. They work very differently.