[mspiker03]

Debbie's website (from when I have looked) seems out of date (upcoming events in like 2011). If she doesn't respond to email, I would call. I know my herding instructor rarely checks email.

And from all the times I have asked about trainers around the Bay (for friends), she is the one that gets recommended - especially with German Shepherds.

 

[WIBackpacker]

BTW, I grew up in Waunakee and Stoughton! Left WI after college at UW-Madison, but still love it when I go.

That is my alma mater as well.

It's much easier to teach a dog to respect a different species (don't chase it, don't bite it, don't bark at it) than teaching it to work/herd them. "Don't touch the cookie!" is easy to teach. "Touch the cookie, pick it up, dunk it in the milk, set it on the plate, but don't eat the cookie" is much, much harder.

It was explained to me, like this -

Imagine a dog’s brain flooding with the color “Blue” when you give it a command it knows away from livestock, such as “Stand/Stay.” Livestock stimulates predatory urges in a dog, and the dog’s brain floods with the color “Red.” When you say “Stand/Stay” to a beginner herding dog in front of sheep, “Blue” PLUS “Red” EQUALS “Purple.” Your dog doesn’t recognize the meaning of “Purple” yet and doesn’t obey.

^ Quoted from another trainer's website, not my words, but it's a great way to explain it. It's hard to describe in words/online, but it's unmistakable, when you see it.

 

[dldolan]

Debbie's website (from when I have looked) seems out of date (upcoming events in like 2011). If she doesn't respond to email, I would call. I know my herding instructor rarely checks email.

And from all the times I have asked about trainers around the Bay (for friends), she is the one that gets recommended - especially with German Shepherds.

I am glad to hear that! I will call if she doesn't email back. Good advice.


WI Backpacker: Good analogy. I like the color thing---that seems true. Right now both dogs will stay where I put them outside the goat fence. If the goats move out of sight, my older dog will look to me (can I move to see them), but Mina can only take it so long and will then follow them down the fence. She does recall when asked to "go back", so it is mildly encouraging that she'll obey, albeit slowly. If I keep calling out, "stay" every few minutes while I am cleaning the goat shed, she does better.

Red is hard...! Purple confusing. I get it. Doing the same training I use for the mailman, UPS driver, gas guy, etc might be a good start, but that is countering any protectiveness in their nature, not dealing with prey drive. I use "leave it" for my older dog if he spies a chicken who flew over into the vineyard, but I haven't done tons of work with her on that. Mostly just to leave my shoes alone! (She is a bit of a hoarded--we know to look in her crate for missing...anything.)

Thanks. I feel better being able to talk this through!

 

[WIBackpacker]

Some pictures from last week, working on a controlled "Stand" out of motion.

These pictures make me pretty happy, because you can see all four paws (and all four hooves, in the case of the sheep) on the ground. Motion actually stops.... which is a big deal, especially for this little girl..... my 90MPH, flying-four-off-the-floor, wild child. We're getting there. :wub:

 

[WIBackpacker]

More progress this week.... Better pace, more reliable 'Stand', and getting calmer working in her less-comfortable direction, counter-clockwise.

 

[GypsyGhost]

Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).

 

[ksotto333]

Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).

I was hesitant but an instructor took Della in three weeks ago. She was so good, no barking, loose leash, watching the sheep, and listening to the instructor. She was on lead the whole time, she didn't own the sheep but said she would have had her off leash if we were at her farm. My instructor has Aussies and was pleasantly surprised by Dell. Hoping we can continue.

 

[osito23]

Thank you for sharing - I've enjoyed reading this thread She is really looking grown up.

 

[WIBackpacker]

Gypsy, Karen - go for it! It'd be great to see more GSD's, there aren't too many (at least in this area).

Five years ago when I was training my other dog, we were the minority.

Fast forward to now, deja vu - one of these things is (still) not like the others.

Osito, thanks! I agree, she's definitely growing up.

 

[WateryTart]

Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).

I suspect mine saw dinner; she kept trying to cut one out of the flock! (Nothing wrong with her prey drive...) She FINALLY quit doing that toward the end of her second slot in the pen, but she left us in the dark as to her potential. I was told to try her again with an instructor, because there may be something there despite her not showing herding instinct immediately.

It's on my list of things to do, to get her to an instructor for another evaluation.

WI, I noticed that too: the shortage of GSDs. I was told about one WL breeder and one SL breeder in my area who are fairly active. The general tone at the event I attended, though, was that standard required equipment for herding was a border collie.

 

[WIBackpacker]

This week was a really good one, made nice progress. We're moving beyond circling/distance/reverse basics, on to walking in (deliberate) directions.

Her job is to keep the sheep with me, at a sane pace, wearing (back and forth, not in a full circle). Some really nice things happened this week.

The hardest thing right now, for me, is developing trust in the dog. Trusting her enough to turn my back and walk away, having confidence she will be correct and bring the sheep to follow, in line, behind me. Trusting she won't have an outburst of puppy zoomies or go "bowling" when she knows I'm not watching. For now, I'm cheating.... by looking over my shoulder quite a bit. But she's starting to earn that trust.

And look at this.... A beautiful, deliberate, controlled pause/stand. From a 10 month old puppy.

 

[dogma13]

Lolol!

 

[WIBackpacker]

Lolol!

@dogma13, next time I need to drink more coffee before posting. I'm pretty sure I managed to link the puppy album instead of lesson pictures when I first posted this. WHOOPS. I shouldn't use Photobucket till the coffee pot is empty.....

Also, if anyone is curious, some of the ewes were recently bred, which explains those fashionable chalk marks. :grin2:

 

[Chai]

In a nutshell, it's a measure of how intensely the dog stares at the sheep - exerting pressure with their eyes, to make them move or cooperate. The best example of a strong-eyed breed is a working border collie.

The other end of the spectrum, loose-eyed breeds ("upright workers") use body pressure, barking, gripping (or ankle/hock nipping like a cattle dog). They don't stare down the stock, and tend to be more physical. They can be significantly more challenging to work with small groups of livestock and/or in small spaces, like pens, or sorting.

This is fascinating! I see working BC's at some local places where they try and herd my dog and I as we walk through the fields. They seem to be able to stare right into your soul :crazy: they go really still and low, and I find myself moving involuntarily. But I also see working cattle dogs (like the Pilbara Working Dogs on fb) and they work sooo differently, very physical.

I haven't tried it with my pup but I love following it because it's just so interesting. Keep up the great work! The dogs looks great

 

[Mudypoz]

We no longer have a herding person (for lessons) around here, so I'm on my own.

Have you talked to Joyce Shephard? Or is she no longer around? I used to take herding lessons from her with my ACD. I'm in Sonoma County too :smile2:

 

[Niexist]

This is very cool to see! My mom raised border collies when I was young, and her dog Julie was extremely highly ranked, like #2 in the country at one point. They have an intensity that isn't matched by any other kind of dog I have ever seen. I'm not sure how the breed is doing these days now that they are AKC recognized, and the dogs look like this.

Ah, another lovely working breed ruined by dog shows.

 

[WIBackpacker]

@Niexist, actually the ("real") working BC people - the ones that run farms and the others that compete in ABCA/ISDS trials - don't really care about the AKC ring anymore. They've separated themselves. The ABCA is a completely separate registration, and they go so far as to DE-register any dog that is exhibited to Champion status in the AKC ring. No questions asked, they're off the registry, and their offspring are ineligible for ABCA registration as well. They have a complete and total divide. They will not accept any AKC pedigree as proof of breed, and if you want to obtain ABCA registration from non-ABCA lineage, the only way to do it is through performance in certain herding venues.

If you'd like to go into this in more detail maybe a new thread can be started? I say that with total politeness, but I'm more than a little bit weary of this topic.... The two dog venues I enjoy most, herding and agility, are dominated by BC's and it's nearly impossible to attend a seminar or workshop without this topic coming up and being argued for hours on end. I don't even own one, but I'm inundated with their breed politics constantly.

 

[dldolan]

Have you talked to Joyce Shephard? Or is she no longer around? I used to take herding lessons from her with my ACD. I'm in Sonoma County too :smile2:

I just did a herding instinct "test" with Debbie at Herding 4 Ewe in Vacaville (CA). There were five dogs there, 2 GSD, 1 BC, 1 McNab, and my mix breed Anatolian Shepard/BC cross. So cool! My GSD was calm and collected, and although only 12 months, was attentive, relaxed with the sheep, but intentional about it. The light bulb went off after just a few minutes, and you could see her thinking about it.The trainer said she showed a lot of good instincts, and is the type of dog for actual herding work that she likes to work with. I was pleased. My other guy is clearly a guardian, and we'll keep him doing what he does now...keeping deer out of the vineyard and coyotes warned away. He was cool to watch as well, though clearly he didn't understand why the sheep didn't jump over the fence when he charged them, like the deer do! A great experience. Cool to watch the other dogs and listen to her explanations about how they were (or weren't) thinking and acting.

 

[dldolan]

WIBackpacker, do you have more photos of Ayla? I'm looking at body language now. The gal who did the test encouraged me to take Mina in with the goats, and (even if I help by waving at them) get "her" to move them a bit in a direction we pick. Just so she understands that moving them off with some pressure and intent is what the goal is (for now). So, I've been taking her in the goat pen for 3-5 minutes, having her be successful, then taking her out. Concerns: My 6 month old baby Boer goats (females have horns, males are tipped for fair) are so friendly that they want to come right up to me, and are not afraid of her. One female will touch noses with her, one male will sniff her, but then stomp and threaten to butt her, the other female doesn't want Mina near, so will ndeavor to butt with intent, and the other male ignores her. Mina is very relaxed around them, and would probably sniff them, then look for poop and ignore them if I let her. Once we start "moving them" (I'm waving my leash while telling her "Forward" and "stop", then she is more attentive, and gets that we are working. Any suggestions? The little dude goats go to fair in 3 weeks, but I don't want the big one to scare her by butting her...or should I let him so she's respectful? How do you handle (mildly) aggressive sheep/goats with Ayla?
Thanks!

 

[WIBackpacker]

@dldolan, do you have the ability to take short video clips, maybe with a cell phone? I started picking up more quickly on some of my (human handler) errors watching video of my lesson work afterward. Everything tends to go very fast during those 3-5 minutes, doesn't it?

We (instructor and I) decided that she won't be let loose in with my goats or geese until she has a very solid foundation in place. My goats aren't ideal "training" animals either, they're too people-friendly, too pushy, one is old and grumpy, etc. My older dog formed some bad habits growing up with lots of freedom and I'm trying to lay a better foundation With Ayla. Honestly I'm not sure what I would do in your situation. Maybe try and take a few video clips, there are some posters here that may be able to offer insight.

I do have more pics, I'll try and upload some more later this week.