That is so awesome!

 

Very impressive!

 

Superstar gorgeous girl. She is going to have a very exciting future.

 

I have no idea what "medium and loose eye" is.

But love the pics, love to see GSDs doing the herding work.

Congrats on a very promising start!

 

I have no idea what "medium and loose eye" is.

In a nutshell, it's a measure of how intensely the dog stares at the sheep - exerting pressure with their eyes, to make them move or cooperate. The best example of a strong-eyed breed is a working border collie.

The other end of the spectrum, loose-eyed breeds ("upright workers") use body pressure, barking, gripping (or ankle/hock nipping like a cattle dog). They don't stare down the stock, and tend to be more physical. They can be significantly more challenging to work with small groups of livestock and/or in small spaces, like pens, or sorting.

So a GSD that is showing some intense "eye" is really nice, since it means that the dog has that instinct as a tool to use. You can't train "eye" into a dog, it's either there or it isn't. The more tools they have in their toolbox (so to speak), the more adaptable and useful they may be, in a variety of situations. Sometimes eye is enough. Sometimes it's not. But adaptability is awesome when you're dealing with livestock, where every animal can be a wildcard.

~~~

Thank you guys for the nice comments, it's really nice to have some people to share our stories with. When I get excited about working sheep, most people think I'm nuts.

 

Thank you for the explanation. If I ever have the opportunity would love to learn about herding more.

Keep on sharing!

 

Progress continues, even in the recent crud weather we're enjoying in the Midwest.

Like every dog I've ever owned, she has decided that the straw shed & hay bale piles are simply the best thing in the world. Obviously, I buy them just for her.

This morning I was so happy, she did her first "Real Work". By my definition, that means she helped me get something done, and made it easier than me doing it alone. The geese do not belong in the garage, but they try to sneak in when it's cold so they can steal corn, poop on the floor, and cause other mischief. We were able to group them into an orderly cluster and push them into the back of the building, so I could open the door and evict them back outdoors where they belong. If you look closely, you can see that her lead is loose. Not by much - but I'll take it. She's just starting to develop the confidence to stand still (quietly) and maintain eye contact, without freaking out the birds.

Trials and precise maneuvers are wonderful, but sometimes it's the simple day-to-day help that means the most. How I love this little dog.

 

I'm also enjoying your posts!I can't think of any better life for our dogs than to be our helpers and companions.

 

Workin' Woolies in the snow, just shy of 8 months old.

Two primary goals right now.... 1. Learning self control, and 2. Building calm confidence.

It's wonderful to watch a 40lb puppy come into her own, and understand that she can control large animals that are 3-4 times her size. You can literally see the "Aha!" moments when instinct and obedience combine, and good things happen.

Off the stock, we're working on the all-important 'Stand' around distractions, and giving commands in a quiet voice to encourage her to listen closely for all verbal cues.

 

This week, we made some major progress in poultry manners. Now we're starting to practice self control, off-leash and outside of the pens.

 

Wonderful!She's really doing greatCoincidentally,I let Samson outside off leash even though there were several turkeys out back in the field.He was pretty geeked up since he'd been watching them from inside.He started running but stopped on command and didn't follow when the turkeys ran.We can both be proud today

 

Wonderful!She's really doing great

Coincidentally,I let Samson outside off leash even though there were several turkeys out back in the field.He was pretty geeked up since he'd been watching them from inside.He started running but stopped on command and didn't follow when the turkeys ran.We can both be proud today

That's is great I don't think mine would ever hear me unless I had a bull horn but maybe then not. There is someone that does sheep herding close by when we are closer to being ready would love to try it.

 

Looking forward to more of Ayla's adventures and training!

 

I'm so glad I found this thread! I have a million questions. We no longer have a herding person (for lessons) around here, so I'm on my own. I have a 11 month old GSD, who was introduced to sheep at 5 months, but then nothing. I got her after our meat goats all went to fair, so she never got to meet them as a pup. We just got our spring goats, and will be keeping two of the females permanently. I'd like to train her to help me move them to and from an electric pen a few times a week. I'll train one of the female goats to lead, but would like Mina to help, and stay near them while they are in the electrified moveable pen.

On lead, she has been allowed to come near them in their pen and sniff. One of the whethers (4.5 months) lowered his head and stomped at her and she backed off right away. She did not show any predatory inclination, and just seemed interested in sniffing around.

Any "next steps" ideas would be welcome. For now, since they are still little, the four goats are in a 1/3 acre contained pasture with a shed.
Should I bring her in the pasture with me on a long lead, sit calmly watching and have her sit with me until it is not a big deal and she is calm? OR???

Last bit of information is that i have a Border collie/Anatolian mix 4 year old who has been trained to run the deer out of the vineyard. Mina has helped him twice. I'm worried that the goats act too much like deer, so have only let him sniff the goat through the fence, for fear of him chasing them. Suggestions?

I realize that I clearly need to train one dog at a time, and might as well start with my big goofy GSD puppy, but thought I'd ask about the other dog, too.

Thanks for any help you can give. Dawn

 

We no longer have a herding person (for lessons) around here, so I'm on my own.

Have you talked to Joyce Shephard? Or is she no longer around? I used to take herding lessons from her with my ACD. I'm in Sonoma County too :smile2:

 

@dldolan - I would make the trip to see Debbie Pollard in Vacaville. She is experienced with German Shepherds and would be much better at getting you started than trying out advice online.

 

Hi Dawn, I agree 100% with mspiker's recommendation to work through foundation (and beyond) with a qualified trainer that has experience with multiple types of livestock.

There are two things that are almost always needed, to reach the goal you described.

1. You need "dog-broke" sheep (or goats) in order to train a new dog. They're calmer, aren't spooky, and are as predictable as possible. These are animals that respect a working dog, generally don't challenge the dog at every turn, but aren't terrified of the dog.

2. You need a solid, predictable dog to "dog break" your own animals. Your instructor can give you more feedback/input on this. Your goats have to learn to respect dogs, and the best teacher is a confident stockdog that can train them, using only as much force as necessary.

After both of those pieces of the puzzle come together, you should be able to safely begin working your own dog on your own livestock. Green dog + wild goats = chaos at best, likely injuries or worse, unless the handler is very savvy with lots of experience and has FAST reflexes. I (personally) do not allow my dog to move our goats during later stages of pregnancy, or after kidding, until the kids are 100% weaned. Even the typically mild does can act erratically/aggressively if the dog enters the pen with their kid. If they need to be moved, I put the dog inside and bribe the goats with a grain bucket. (Note - plenty of farmers use their dogs during lambing/kidding, but since I only have a few animals and my dogs are not impeccably trained, the stress and risk aren't worth it, to me). Some individual goats can be stubborn or aggressive (as I'm sure you're well aware). I sold an otherwise nice quality buck because he was moody and unpredictable during certain seasons. Too risky, too annoying.

RE: Chasing deer, I don't allow it. It has the potential to confuse the ironclad "NO CHASING" rules that pertain to chickens, cats, etc. I give a pretty firm leash correction for deer chasing attempts, they are absolutely thick in the parks around here and we encounter them regularly.

Do keep us posted if you're able to connect with the trainer recommended, I'd love to hear updates! There aren't enough goat keepers in the world, they're such interesting critters.....

 

Thanks to you both! I wrote Debbie this morning, but it says she is not accepting new clients on her website. Hopefully she'll email back, and if she isn't taking clients, maybe she knows someone up near me. If not, I'll need advice, for sure!

Totally makes sense about the young dog, trained stock, and than an experienced dog to work my young goats. They are 4.5 months old, and not super goofy due to the good job of the farmer down the road I got them from. They are used to his big blocky lab and rat terrier being near them, so aren't too fearful of my dogs, and came right over to the fence where they were to see them.

I need the dogs to keep the deer & turkeys out of the vineyard, which is actually the #1 priority for me. They also keep the raccoons and opossum away, and deter other predators from my Marans breeding operation, so they are working dogs in that sense. As for the goats, at a very minimum, I need the dogs to respect them. I will train the goats to lead so I can move them into hot fencing during a few hours per day. Preferably, the dogs would help guard while the goats are in the electric fencing during the day (back into their main pasture at night). Best case, Mina would help me move them!

I need to think in baby steps, I know.

 

BTW, I grew up in Waunakee and Stoughton! Left WI after college at UW-Madison, but still love it when I go.

 

BTW, I grew up in Waunakee and Stoughton! Left WI after college at UW-Madison, but still love it when I go.

That is my alma mater as well.

It's much easier to teach a dog to respect a different species (don't chase it, don't bite it, don't bark at it) than teaching it to work/herd them. "Don't touch the cookie!" is easy to teach. "Touch the cookie, pick it up, dunk it in the milk, set it on the plate, but don't eat the cookie" is much, much harder.

It was explained to me, like this -

Imagine a dog’s brain flooding with the color “Blue” when you give it a command it knows away from livestock, such as “Stand/Stay.” Livestock stimulates predatory urges in a dog, and the dog’s brain floods with the color “Red.” When you say “Stand/Stay” to a beginner herding dog in front of sheep, “Blue” PLUS “Red” EQUALS “Purple.” Your dog doesn’t recognize the meaning of “Purple” yet and doesn’t obey.

^ Quoted from another trainer's website, not my words, but it's a great way to explain it. It's hard to describe in words/online, but it's unmistakable, when you see it.

 

Debbie's website (from when I have looked) seems out of date (upcoming events in like 2011). If she doesn't respond to email, I would call. I know my herding instructor rarely checks email.

And from all the times I have asked about trainers around the Bay (for friends), she is the one that gets recommended - especially with German Shepherds.

 

I am glad to hear that! I will call if she doesn't email back. Good advice.


WI Backpacker: Good analogy. I like the color thing---that seems true. Right now both dogs will stay where I put them outside the goat fence. If the goats move out of sight, my older dog will look to me (can I move to see them), but Mina can only take it so long and will then follow them down the fence. She does recall when asked to "go back", so it is mildly encouraging that she'll obey, albeit slowly. If I keep calling out, "stay" every few minutes while I am cleaning the goat shed, she does better.

Red is hard...! Purple confusing. I get it. Doing the same training I use for the mailman, UPS driver, gas guy, etc might be a good start, but that is countering any protectiveness in their nature, not dealing with prey drive. I use "leave it" for my older dog if he spies a chicken who flew over into the vineyard, but I haven't done tons of work with her on that. Mostly just to leave my shoes alone! (She is a bit of a hoarded--we know to look in her crate for missing...anything.)

Thanks. I feel better being able to talk this through!

 

Some pictures from last week, working on a controlled "Stand" out of motion.

These pictures make me pretty happy, because you can see all four paws (and all four hooves, in the case of the sheep) on the ground. Motion actually stops.... which is a big deal, especially for this little girl..... my 90MPH, flying-four-off-the-floor, wild child. We're getting there. :wub:

 

More progress this week.... Better pace, more reliable 'Stand', and getting calmer working in her less-comfortable direction, counter-clockwise.

 

Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).

 

I was hesitant but an instructor took Della in three weeks ago. She was so good, no barking, loose leash, watching the sheep, and listening to the instructor. She was on lead the whole time, she didn't own the sheep but said she would have had her off leash if we were at her farm. My instructor has Aussies and was pleasantly surprised by Dell. Hoping we can continue.

 

Thank you for sharing - I've enjoyed reading this thread She is really looking grown up.

 

Gypsy, Karen - go for it! It'd be great to see more GSD's, there aren't too many (at least in this area).

Five years ago when I was training my other dog, we were the minority.

Fast forward to now, deja vu - one of these things is (still) not like the others.

Osito, thanks! I agree, she's definitely growing up.

 

This week was a really good one, made nice progress. We're moving beyond circling/distance/reverse basics, on to walking in (deliberate) directions.

Her job is to keep the sheep with me, at a sane pace, wearing (back and forth, not in a full circle). Some really nice things happened this week.

The hardest thing right now, for me, is developing trust in the dog. Trusting her enough to turn my back and walk away, having confidence she will be correct and bring the sheep to follow, in line, behind me. Trusting she won't have an outburst of puppy zoomies or go "bowling" when she knows I'm not watching. For now, I'm cheating.... by looking over my shoulder quite a bit. But she's starting to earn that trust.

And look at this.... A beautiful, deliberate, controlled pause/stand. From a 10 month old puppy.

 

Lolol!

 

@dogma13, next time I need to drink more coffee before posting. I'm pretty sure I managed to link the puppy album instead of lesson pictures when I first posted this. WHOOPS. I shouldn't use Photobucket till the coffee pot is empty.....

Also, if anyone is curious, some of the ewes were recently bred, which explains those fashionable chalk marks. :grin2:

 

This is very cool to see! My mom raised border collies when I was young, and her dog Julie was extremely highly ranked, like #2 in the country at one point. They have an intensity that isn't matched by any other kind of dog I have ever seen. I'm not sure how the breed is doing these days now that they are AKC recognized, and the dogs look like this.

Ah, another lovely working breed ruined by dog shows.