[wolfstraum]

IMO - one of the biggest problems of the breed is the mass demand for "just a pet" and a lack of willingness/ability of people to buy a puppy from a breeder who is responsible. Too many "breeders" have stepped up and filled that market demand to the detriment of the breed.

And the sport breeding for the sake of sport or for money and greed, without concern or the knowledge or objectivity to produce balance in drives and character - lots of sucessful "top sport" dogs who can be conditioned but are not really what they appear to be because they are in the hands of a trainer who has experience enough to hide their flaws. Then those are bred. Unfortunately just too many people out there and too little integrity in breeding. Both in breeding and behavior towards their buyers and peers.

Lee

 

[SunCzarina]

To add to Lee's thoughts, I can't count how many people who don't understand the point of health/hip certs and titles. 'I just want a pet so that stuff doesn't matter', '1200 is way too much for a dog!' Then they end up with a dog who's not capable of doing anything but sitting in the yard barking at everyone who goes past and has a ton of health problems!

I'm not going to rant but our supersize me culture has a lot to do with why people want a dog so huge. Rex was a mess healthwise but I always had people telling me proudly how much bigger their so-and-so's german shepherd was. Why? As a 105lb woman (yea I lost 5 more of those twin pounds!), I don't want a dog who's bigger than me, I want one who's 30lbs smaller and I still have trouble trying to wrangle him into heel position!

 

[khawk]

cliftonanderson1, I would posit that it is not necessary to have high drives or Schutzhund training to show nerve. A working cattle dog who has to go into the brush after a nasty old cow with her calf who doesn't want to get up and leave her shady nook has to have courage--those old cows don't like being disturbed and many of them have horns, and they weigh around a thousand pounds. It is easier, safer and faster for the dogs to bust them out of the brush than it is for a person, even one mounted on a horse or on an atv. They often come out of the brush after the dog very close to breathing fire.

I have had dogs take on cougars twice over the years (and I defy anyone to say that didn't take courage) and put them to route to save people and livestock. My guide dog Mom once held off a knife weilding crazy who broke into my house long enough (and effectively enough) for me to call the cops and get (safely) out of the house. My first search and rescue dog stopped 4 burglaries in his life (two at the neighbors, one where I lived and worked) and was shot stopping the fourth when I loaned him to a friend. The 2 at the neighbors (they were really more home invasion style) happened after he was shot. Three of the occasions included 2 assailants, not one.

None of these dogs could have succeeded at Schutzhund. They were quiet, thoughtful real world working dogs who did not bite people for fun and while they were hard working dogs, they would/could never have been considered 'high' drive dogs. My cattle working, livestock tracking, search and rescue (two saves of hikers in the wilderness a year apart) burglar stopping dog was, in fact, called a 'couch potato' by Schutzhund trainers who also asserted that he was worthless and useless because he didn't like being agitated and had no use for attacking strangers in weird suits.
In yet another real world situation, my calm, 'thinking' low-drive, couch potato first wheelchair aide dog successfully routed a group of young men when Pat's SchIII internationally titled dog ran around madly looking for the bad guy behind the blind--completely ignoring the real life young men casing her van. I have, I think, a well-earned skepticism for how Schutzhund people measure courage and have learned a distince aversion for their standards over the years.
I dislike the judgemental way so many of them cut down other people's dogs when those dogs are different from theirs and I would disagree that breeding a quality pet dog is somehow wrong or that if shouldn't be done. Pet dogs are the foundation and backbone of all dog breeds, and without pet people and their dogs those of us with more esoteric pursuits would find ourselves having difficulties getting food, equipment, training and many other necessities of dog sport and service. If we do not take the time to cultivate and educate and befriend pet dog people, in the difficult days ahead, when we are under attack from PETA people and those who would force mandatory spay/neuter laws on us along with breed specific legislation, we may find ourselves searching fruitlessly for a place where we can live with our beloved dogs without discrimination.
This forum has much valuable information to impart and it can serve the purpose of bringing us all together and uniting us--if we use it so. Bias towards one type of Shepherd alone while bashing a type of dog preferred by other people, sometimes for whimsical reasons, other times for reasons grounded in very real and reasonable purposes, does not bring us together. Let us emphasize our common causes and celebrate the dogs who have brought us here. khawk

 

[darylehret]

The problem with conformation standards, is they seem to take precedence over working standards, as conformation can inherently never provide an accurate basis for the measurement of performance and temperament.

I'm not biased toward one type of shepherd (as long as there's enough of the type I favor), nor could care less about a conformation standard really, in regards to height, weight, and angulation. And I agree a little variety in characteristics is necessary for the longevety of the breed, and it's suitability to a wide array of jobs. If you breed select too narrowly in matters of conformation, with little margin, you are inadvertently selecting against performance potentials of particular individuals at the same time. Sought for traits them become rarer, and seldom regained in the lines.

In broader terms, if you overselect toward one extreme, you are eliminating the potential merits of the other. Our current standard is perhaps a modest 22 lb. variable range for each gender (the median seems always near the upper limit though), and the height variation is a very narrow (perhaps overly so) 3 inch size range.

However, if an extreme example of 120-140 pound dog can actually prove it's merit in agility and speed (I'm in disbelief), then I'd doubtfully ever question it's strength. But what of endurance, or longevity of health? A bengal tiger weighs an average of 500 lbs., and is certainly adequately equipped for incredible biomechanical feats in performance, so the weight itself isn't my real objection. My 84lb. dog has no problem dragging a static 200 lbs. across the lawn or parkinglot, so I'd see little point in breeding to such extremes in weight.

The important thing, is too keep distinct characteristics of purpose among certain lines somewhat pure, so that they can be more consistently selected for, and consistently produced. A breeder who's interest is in providing urban disaster dogs for example, perhaps might wish to stay near the lower end of the size spectrum.

In my opinion though, no gsd should ever be considered unsuitable for familiy life, as long as their particular activity needs are met. And each should have a purpose to fulfil, other than simply pleasing it's owner with its presence.

 

[cliffson1]

Khawk, I had to go back to read my post to you to see if you have me confused with somebody else or you didn't read my post, or you are so set in your thought patterns that my post didn't register. Whichever it is, First, I NEVER mentioned drives or said that all dogs needed to have Sch degrees. I purposely included in my post seeing-eye dogs(where I come from that is a service dog maybe its different where you live), I also said Herding dog, I think that resonates with examples you were giving, and I said police/military dogs. That covers a wide range of territory that you didn't seem to pick up. I also said that all GS should possess nerve, courage, and be fearless, but that is what the standard for the breed calls for not Cliff Anderson. Most people on this board know that I am just as critical of dogs with "more drive than brains" as I am of the weak nerved dogs. So, how you read my post and came up with this monologue about Sch and Drives in reference to my post is beyond me. Try reading my post again and then read your response to me and maybe you will see the disconnect....Take care!

 

[Smithie86]

I think it is also finding a breeder that is honest to themselves and why they are breeding their dogs, whether male or female. To me, that is the basics for ethics and focus in breeding. Looking at what is a good balance for what the dogs needs in the next generation, rather than breeding to line/pedigree/color.

Being able to really read what the behavior is in a dog, rather than use the common buzz words that are used to sell. Very few people really understand behavior in a dog - what does that grip really mean, physical manifestations, etc. They focus on what the dog looks like, where show or working, and not how the dog is in all situations. I know of a really nice stud dog, working lines titled and koered that was given away for free to someone in another state for vague reasons and the dog is an issue in the new situation. Not good.

Gene England, whether you agree with him or not, is an excellent example of testing a dog. He is like Gypapi in Europe for us. Huge physical and mental presence that just standing there could drive off a dog. Test a dog on them and you will see the true dog. We saw that at a practice field at the WUSV in Eindhoven one year with a top rated dog with Gyapi.

Really looking at the health of the pedigree - how is the dog (both sides) producing in regards to not only hips, but any issues with SIBO, EPI, thyroid, back issues, etc..

We look for a dogs with brains as well - one that thinks, reasons, has a "style of work" - not barking crazy for drive or no reason.

We look for consistency in what people are doing - watching and talking to other breeders and why they do what they do. What are people producing. There are some small, pretty unknown breeders, both here and in Europe, that have a really good direction on their breeding focus. Not program - very few in the states have a true breeding program - that is multi-generational that you keep, actually work and title dogs from your breedings and use in breedings.

When breeders switch direction rapidly (not over a period of time) because it does not support what they want to sell (show to working focus, working to show focus, titled to untitled focus), I would question why. Changing for a good reason is one thing. Changing for economics is not.

 

[big_dog7777]

This is all very very simple. Germany has it correct (except for the buying of titles part). A true GSD comes from TITLED or at the very least WORKING parents. They can be a K9, search and rescue, herding or sport. The only way that anyone can prove a dogs nerve, physical and mental abilities along with his willingness to work with man is to ACTUALLY WORK THEM. PERIOD. From that working knowledge comes the ability to create successful breeding pairs that pass along what a real (yes, I said REAL) GSD is. Are there oversized working GSD's - SURE. They are not the norm, but they exist. Until we see an oversized GSD breeder step up and show titles or active street dogs that are their breeding stock it's all junk that's based on how a dog looks - which is least important of all. The bottom line is that I cannot even list all of the things YOU DO NOT AND NEVER WILL KNOW about a supposedly "perfect" oversized GSD you choose to breed if you do not work them.

To everyone that has a GSD that is over standard - your dog is not useless. Your dog is not any less of a family member and you will not love him any less because he's large. He may even have lots of working potential. HE JUST IS NOT BREEDWORTHY. My first GSD was over standard. I would not have traded him for anything - but he was not breedworthy. Quite frankly, I don't think either of my current dogs are breedworthy either.

So many GSD's are bred that have absolutely positively no business being bred.

 

[wbzorker]

Folks, you have no idea how funny this "serious" thread is to me. Let me explain:

Seven or eight months ago I discovered this forum and responded to a post asking for info on Royalair kennel. I was interested because I was waiting for a Royalair puppy myself. After reading a great deal of closed minded opinions and bizarre arguements, I realized that no progress was being made, that no worthwhile knowledge would come from the thread, and I stopped reading it, and the board.

Some of the things that I learned from that thread were:
An oversized GSD isn't a real GSD.
AKC obedience isn't a real sport.
A GSD that doesn't do Shutzhund isn't a real GSD.
Scorn was heaped upon the breeder, myself and the puppy I didn't have yet.

Seven months ago I picked up my puppy. He is an absolute delight and I'm thrilled with my purchase. But, now it looks like he might <u>not</u> be "oversized". Whoa!

Finding out this important fact, I rushed to post on this forum and low and behold, nothing has changed. The same people are heaping scorn and nothing new is being said. Wisc. Tiger went so far as to say "So if you enjoy your 130 dog, so be it, just don't expect real GSD people to want to buy one." (6/26/09-this thread) and there have been clear implications that a person buying a GSD to "just be a pet" is somehow wrong or inferior.

So, in this alternate forum reality, this is my life:

When I bought my first GSD, for a pet, I was obviously pond scum. Then I put several herding titles and an obedience title on her. This elevated my status slightly. To floating weed, perhaps. Oh, oh, it turned out she was 1/2" over the standard. Phooey, now I'm not a "real GSD person".

This being my only goal in life, I tried again. This time I bought a West German showline shep, son of VA2 Indo von der Bildieche. This time I intended to get titles on him from the start, so I skipped the pond scum status. Alas, the seven titles he's earned are only AKC/UKC obedience titles. (7 months ago, I was told on this thread to get a Golden Retriever because a real GSD should only do "real" work, and AKC/UKC obedience didn't qualify). Oh dear, on top of that when my show-line shep matured, he turned out to be oversized-(like his Daddy). So there I was, still not a "real GSD person".

Lo and behold, Folks, I've finally made it. My newest puppy is intended to earn titles, and some Schutzhund is a possibility. It looks like he won't be oversized, soooo-

Finally-I'm a Real GSD Person because I bought a puppy from Royalair.

Moral to the story? Criticize individual dogs or breeders using facts to support your argument and you will be respected by your readers.

Criticizing and insulting people that join this board to improve their knowledge of the breed, to me, just sounds stupid.

Wendy
URO1,UCD River vom Adel Haus CDX, RE, CGC, HIT (a.k.a. Cairo)
Countess Windstorm Willow HSAs, CD, HTDI-s, PT, CGC
Royalair's Silver Bark (a.k.a. Bhakti)

 

[WiscTiger]

Wendy B, since you have decided to call me out in your post I will still stand by my words.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Quote by WiscTiger </span>

Quote:So if you enjoy your 130 dog, so be it, just don't expect real GSD people to want to buy one

Yikes I am quoting myself.

By real GSD people I am referring to people who want to do things that a GSD is suppose to do, like herding or SchH. A 130 lb GSD would be physically hampered in trying to do these tasks, how do I know I have a 100 lb GSD LC I purchased as a pup from a breeder who doesn't bred for coats. I have three other GSD's in the house and there is no way he can physically do the things that the others can do who weight 77, 68 and 65 lbs.

I think everyone should enjoy what ever dog they purchase or rescue. So if it is a 130 lb GSD you want then again I will say enjoy it.

Val

 

[SunCzarina]

I had that 130lb monster GSD, a genetic anomaly for his lineage. Good dog, Morgan not considered, the smartest of my 7 shepherds. Too bad his body fell apart at only 10 years old, after having a lifetime of medical issues.

He was also a clutz. Zero athletic ability, the dog ofter ran right into a tree chasing his ball. Until he was 3, he couldn't figure out how to run in a straight line, he ran sideways. I could go on but my DD says 'did you notice that I'm hungry'

 

[pupresq]

I have never bought a GSD but I am as "real" as GSD person as you could want to meet. And I have never been made to feel like pond scum on this board because of where I got my dogs. To me a "real" GSD person is one who is knowledgable and cares about the breed, what it was bred to do, what it looks like, what is special about it that makes it different from all the other breeds.

So when it comes to breeders who don't breed to standard and/or don't work their dogs, it's not about the dog someone buys as much as it's about the breeding practices they are choosing to support. The US is FULL of unwanted GSDs. They come in all shapes and sizes, all colors, and all temperaments. I care enough about GSDs that I don't see any reason for people to be going out and buying dogs from breeders who aren't breeding to standard, aren't titling or working their dogs, or aren't taking dogs back when there's a problem or whatever the issue is.

 

[Castlemaid]

Originally Posted By: pupresqI have never bought a GSD but I am as "real" as GSD person as you could want to meet. And I have never been made to feel like pond scum on this board because of where I got my dog. To me a "real" GSD person is one who is knowledgable and cares about the breed, what it was bred to do, what it looks like, what is special about it that makes it different from all the other breeds.

So when it comes to breeders who don't breed to standard and/or don't work their dogs, it's not about the dog someone buys as much as it's about the breeding practices they are choosing to support. The US is FULL of unwanted GSDs. They come in all shapes and sizes, all colors, and all temperaments. I care enough about GSDs that I don't see any reason for people to be going out and buying dogs from breeders who aren't breeding to standard, aren't titling or working their dogs, or aren't taking dogs back when there's a problem or whatever the issue is.

Hannah (pupresq) summarized the entire on-going arguement very well! I joined this forum with "only" a possibly GSD mix, that I was interested in training, and doing Schutzhund. No one ever ever made me feel like I was any form of alga because I didn't have a "real" GSD. But then, I didn't act like I knew everything there was to know about dogs and breeding dogs, nor did I stick out my tongue at people who tried to educate me about what a GSD is, and what a good breeder is. So maybe it wasn't so much where I got my dog from, but about my attitude? (Don't know? A WILD guess, maybe?)

But when I wanted a puppy to raise for myself, I went with a reputable breeder that breeds to standard, and works and titles her dogs, and will take back dogs no matter what. Because if I just wanted a pet, I can rescue one. If I just wanted a pet that I can try different activities one for fun, I found one at the shelter.

But when I had my heart set on a German Shepherd with hopes of titling, I went with a breeder that breeds Shepherds to standard, in looks, size, working ability and temperament.

To me, breeding a GSD that can't do Schutzhund, or agility, or other activities, is like breeding Labs that won't retrieve . . . what's the point?

 

[jaggirl47]

Very well said! This forum has been wonderful to me and everyone has been extremely awesome! I am actively looking for the breeder of my next shepherd for almost a year from now and everyone has been absolutely wonderful and informative. Thank you all for the support you guys have shown me from all sides on here!

 

[Kayos and Havoc]

Man I just read this thread and I am not sure what the argument is about!

All my GSD's are real GSD's. I hav a rescue who is oversized and has a few agility titles, an American showline with a few titles and a German showline who is working on a few titles.

I think a real GSD is what you want him to be.

Wendy B I am sorry you feel criticized, I never have felt that way.

 

[jaggirl47]

http://royalair.org/page1.html

This is why I wasn't interested in the kennel right here. This page says it all!

 

[Amaruq]

Originally Posted By: Wendy B.
Some of the things that I learned from that thread were:
An oversized GSD isn't a real GSD.
AKC obedience isn't a real sport.
A GSD that doesn't do Shutzhund isn't a real GSD.
Scorn was heaped upon the breeder, myself and the puppy I didn't have yet.

I believe the point was there is a standard for the GSD which calls for a certain structure, size and temperament to distinguish it from a Chihuahua or an Irish Wolf Hound. The goal of any breeder should be to produce dogs that match what the breed standard which defines the breed. In all of my years here I do not recall AKC obedience not being deemed a real "sport". I have seen many people refer to it as not a true test of BREED WORTHINESS for a GSD and I am one of them. There is a huge difference in a "sport" and tests such as SCH and herding which TESTS the dogs nerve, temperament and drive. Yes, SCH is often referred to as a sport but it was the one of the original tests to deem a GSD to be breed worthy.

 

[Doc]

I can not sit by and without saying something - although I realize in this fourm I am the minority.

I have no idea how long the majority of people in this fourm has been involved in the German shepherd, but from the sounds of it, there has been very little reading and honest discussion about the history of this breed. The GSD is suppose to be a "working" dog. And as far as that goes, work can be defined in many ways. The GSD is suppose to a utility type dog, one that can do many different activities. The GSD grew out of the herding dog that Max watched herding sheep. That is the tenent of which this breed was developed. It evolved into a "police" dog when the rural landscape began to dissappear. The it was decided that the GSD shouls be able to perform certain feats to get titled. Along with a long evolution of size standards, coat colors, etc.

Somewhere along the line, greed and personal agenda took over and the once herding working dog that was a "German shepherd" (notice the word shepherd) divided into two camps. Dogs that are bred to conform to the standard (show lines) and working lines. Unfortunately, "working lines" were mostly defined as Sch. dogs and herding German shepherds were red headed step children, along with German shepherds that didn't conform to the standard.

The politics raised its ugly head and the breed experienced a slow steady decline for the past 30 years. This coupled with the fact that German shepherds were bred based on titles and not health has taken its toll.

To argue today about what a "real" german shepherd is, is a useless argument. Because the bred that was at one time both a working and show bred has been divided into two very different dogs. And unfortunately, the two shall never be one again as long as people are not willing to commit to dialog and overcome the obvious problems within this breed that have been magnified over the past 30+ years.

 

[pupresq]

Thanks Lucia!

And I want to add - I think that even people who want to work a dog can sometimes find one in rescue. It can be tricky to find a puppy in the color you want at the time you want with the drive you want etc., but there are a lot of to standard drivey dogs available for adoption. But other times for what someone is looking for, it's easier to buy a puppy or maybe they just want to buy a puppy, which is fine. I think Lucia picked a great breeder and got a phenomenal dog.

I don't think he's more of a "real" GSD than mine but his parents were certainly more breed-worthy and I think that was the point John was trying to make. I have a great dog with terrific drive but without knowing her background and genetics she shouldn't be bred. For other dogs, it's their conformation or health or drive or some other quality that makes them not breedworthy. It doesn't make them bad dogs! But there are SO many GSDs out there, the standard for breeding should be to be done as responsibly as possible, breeding the best of the best and -that needs to be assessed in some objective manner that is appropriate to that breed.

 

[Liesje]

Honestly I don't really care if people don't care about titles or prefer larger size, longer coat, or whatever, but what bugs me is people trying to make their dogs out to be something they are not. I've seen breeders advertise their puppies as "suitable for" things like police work, SAR, SchH, etc and you do a bit if digging and cannot find any dogs from their program doing these types of work in the past three generations or more. To me that is just lying and being a con. If someone likes to breed "flat-backed", oversized, long coated German shepherds then that's what it should say on their website. I simply call a spade a spade is all.

Also, I've still yet to hear a valid justification for all this "old world" German Shepherd stuff I keep seeing. All I see is people saying one thing and then breeding another. That doesn't really instill any confidence in me as a potential buyer. So to be blunt anytime I see that catch phrase I move on.

Here is an "old world" GSD bitch (VA, SchH1, KKL1) and my GSD bitch. I see a lot more similarities to my bitch who is 55lbs, 21" than a 120+lb dog. Hmmmmm

 

[Doc]

CH Vol of Long Worth ROM

Valiantdale's Icon vom Irwin UD TD SchHIII

UKC Champion Jodel's The Phantom

Some of the old, some of the new with ties back to the old. (Hmmm)