[carmspack]

"we get what we want and no one can tell us "NO." "

I will tell you no . Have done . Look a simple repetitive thread on this forum, someone looking for , a special GSD that is extra large , passive , black and red and long coated. Bring up the standard and the importance of it for the sake of "the breed" and you get demonized because everyone has the right to get whatever they want .
So true.
That is one of the reasons the breed is in difficulty. The name GSD has lost its meaning because the first thing you have to ask someone is , what kind are you interested in?
Other breeds mentioned such as malinois and dutch shepherds don't have this pressure .

 

[volcano]

Id say over 80 percent of american gsd are byb, with a pedigree. Almost all of them are black and tan saddleback, almost nobody has seen a sable like my girl.

 

[mycobraracr]

Good working lines in my area are much tougher to find as the breeders are too busy training/titling to be breeding their dogs lol.

Maybe because they are actually proving their dogs breed worthiness and not just "pumping out puppies". But yes you could be right. My dog Heidi is actually co-owned and was supposed to be bred last heat cycle. I talked them out of ever breeding her for a couple reasons. Mostly because we are having way too much fun playing. I didn't want any down time. We are going for four different titles this year so...

 

[cliffson1]

First hand knowledge doesn't come from worth...it comes from experience, but I guess if you lack that you can defer the issue by sarcasm and just say anything. I seldom see ASL dogs on the streets on, or in sport, or in work. I don't even see many competing in AKC obedience, (was at Del Valley Show couple weeks ago), not saying what you see isn't valid, but I would like to see some data to support the statement you made, or else evidence in the many places I see German Shepherds. I could be wrong, but if so it is a very well kept secret these days.

 

[cliffson1]

@ Volcano....I agree with you, but the poster specified American Show.....most of the American dogs I see these days are similar to what you see.

 

[Blanketback]

You guys sure are lucky if you can keep your dog couped up for a few weeks and not have them bouncing off walls wanting to do something. They're working dogs...they need to do stuff.

I think it sucks that breeders have caterred to that market...but this is America...we get what we want and no one can tell us "NO."

The whole breed, from all the lines, is going to need more than a nice comfy couch to lay on. You're perpetuating a myth by inferring that only the WL need exercise more often than bi-weekly. The novices to the breed, from looking at your post, would think that SL or BYB is a better choice because they're going to be "easier" and that's not true, not speaking in generalities like that.

OT: Someone came to you and said that they were going to get into the housing market because they found a house where they could carry the mortgage at the same cost as the rent they're paying now. You know from your experience (accounting, getting into the market yourself) that they can only afford their rent, and that the house will add to their expenses by way of insurance, taxes, utilities, maintenance. You're going to tell them that they need a second job or they're going to have to forget it.

So there, you've just said, "No" and it was a good learning experience for someone who would have otherwise lost his new house. How many other people are going to lose their new GSD when they can't care for them properly? Tell the truth, tell them they can't have a GSD that doesn't act like one, lol!

 

[sspellmon15]

Amazing


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[Espo4442]

Cliff,
I'm curious...do you see many examples of what the German Shepherd was and should be anymore these days? Also, why do you think even the German Kennels aren't breeding dogs of this standard? I'm sure there has to be GSD's that are on par if not better than the mals and dutch shepherds still around.

 

[martemchik]

I wasn't trying to say that ASL or SL need any less exercise than a WL, that's why that sentence didn't have any kind of lines attached to it, it was just a general "working dogs." I was trying to state that its wrong to expect any working breed (no matter how watered down) to be able to conform to a very docile life. But that's what has become expected in many households that want a GSD (or any breed of dog)...do I agree with it, NO! But I see it every day.

You're right cliff...those American dogs aren't in sport or work, but I do see more of them (even the byb type) than I do working lines. Many of those byb lines at some point came from an AKC champion as that is what a lot of people like to hear rather than SchH3. But in my area...the show ring is still much more popular than a Schutzhund trial. No matter how hard it is to get a major together, they seem to be able to get plenty of dogs at the specialty shows and even sometimes have majors at the all-breed shows.

Carmen, its wonderful that you say no to potential puppy buyers. I wish more breeders would do that, but even more than that I wish people would ACCEPT that being told "no" means that either you should never own a breed like this, or your current lifestyle just doesn't fit it. Change the lifestyle...you'll get the dog. But each time a person is told no, they'll go right next door to someone that will say yes.

In a perfect world, each one of those GSD breeders would be doing it the right way, would care where their pups go, and would be breeding to the highest of standards. I guess if that's the discussion we're trying to have, then of course I agree with all of that. But come on...look at what's going on now, I listen to "reputable breeders" every week at my club talk about their dogs and know all about Schutzhund and even AKC obedience but they don't even think about putting their dogs in there as all they care about is the show ring. That's their interest, and they will swear on their mother's graves that their champion bred dogs are just as good (if not better) than SchH3 bred 5 pedigree dogs. You can't imagine how many times I've been told that their dogs would have a much easier time working than my boy (because their rear angulation is better) without giving any consideration to the fact that their dogs just don't have the will to work in the first place.

 

[cliffson1]

So knowing what you know, would you buy a dog from them with all the things they say their dogs are? After all, you are more knowledgable than first time buyer......why not get a dog from them?
I appreciate your candor and honesty Martemchik, but as you wrote this post you really make the point that though they fervently believe what they say, it's apparent to you without the "will" to do what they say their dogs can do, they probably can't.
My point is there are many breeders that don't know, but more importantly don't know they don't know!....although they are well intentioned folks, I am sure.

 

[cliffson1]

@ expo44.....sure I see examples of dogs like there was back in the day, there are still breeders breeding these dogs and many of them are American breeders, some of the DDR dogs, lot of the Czech dogs, and a some of the sport dogs. They are still out there, but not as show or sport winners. Sweden has a national culture of a lot of dogs like the ones in times past.....little hint, do some research on some of the criteria the Swedes use for breeding. It is multi-faceted!

 

[Nelly]

Interesting thread

I have a few questions, if they don't mind for those involved in training/selecting dogs for LE work.

Has the demand for dual purpose police dogs a bigger cause for the reduced use of german shepherds than the fact breeders aren't doing a very good job ? If the military/LE were after single purpose (patrol) dogs would gsds still have their poorer reputation, or are there still too many nerve issues there ?

If the above is true it just seems a little unfair to blame breeders in general (trust me I know there is a god awful **** of a lot of them) if the demands of LE/Police have changed compared to when gs were in their peak ? With scent work and the necessary ball/hunt drive now more heavily required, the prevalenence of these traits are said to be more common in mals/dutchies than gsds ?

quote ladylaw

The fact is that for dual purpose dogs it is easier to find the ball drive we need in mals and dutchies along with the temperament for patrol work. They are cheaper and plentiful overseas. Germans have done away with DPO/WPO and sport is watered down. Those who breed for KNPV are producing what we need in general.

How would breeders compete with that, without compromising nerves/reducing the gene pool to only dual purpose type ? There has been a lot of threads in this forum and discussions on gsd-euro about the change in schutzhund and training techniques, and consequently the bloodlines and dogs which are now successful compared to the past when the requirements were different. How the demand now is for more ball-orientated, super high prey drive- excluding other bloodlines that may have greater nerve but may not bounce off the wall for a toy. Does it just come down to gs not being originally genetically intended for producing huge amount of scent/hunt drive dogs compared to other breeds ? so again are breeders that much to blame as changing requirements ?

Hoping those involved in this sort of work can correct me where I'm wrong. German shepherds are still a popular choice where I come from for PSD work, and my choice for myself to train.

Kind regards,

Katie.