[Bearshandler]

Where these people are misleading and wrong is that force-free trainers work WITH a particular breed's predatory drives by providing safe outlets instead of suppressing them entirely (which an e-collar does). If you have a high prey drive dog or one that has already killed, it's not suited to live around chickens, cats, or other small animals, especially unsupervised. I think where anti-predation training has been successful is to teach dogs on a walk not to chase wildlife. A lot of people just don't want to take the time with force-free methods when quicker results can be achieved with an e-collar.

Where have you seen these methods be successful? Why is it that a dog that has killed wildlife is not suited to be around wildlife? This is one of my two big issues with force free training. They reach the limit if the training and the answer is to put the dog down or medicate it.

 

[hanshund]

Abuse is abuse i dont need to understand working dogs to see this. If those dogs truly have to be treated that was to function in society then they should not be breeding them like that..

You used to be able to beat your kids and they was considered the norm and necessary.. looking back now we realize that was actually harmful and unnecessary.

Granted there need to be "balance" I don't agree either the other extreme of the spectrum either. Kids/dogs need discipline maybe a corection or spanking but a beating or shock that leaves them whailing on the ground and whimpering, that is abuse plain and simple...

Just because haz know his dogs and knew that that his crazy high drive dog could take that shock without breaking does not mean it was ethical.. ethics in dog training is not based upon a dogs ability to handle abuse or pain that's sad if you believe that

You obviously have no idea what "positive punishment" means.

Positive punishment does not equal abuse.

Did you look at the video that was posted for his haters? That is the same dog.

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[Bearshandler]

Yes he is very compulsion based and uses a lot of learned helplessness.. He come across as calm, respectable and is well spoken but he is actually quite harsh.. lots of punishment an little reward.

Also his down and to the side gentle leader correction is brutal. Even American standard dog training has a video saying not to use gentle leaders as they are dangerous for a dogs neck.. then you have Joel literally giving dogs whiplash with it

At

I believe you are correct.. My dog has low prey drive so It is not something I have delt with personally. However, one of the arguments that balanced trainers make is that force free methods cannot create a reliable recal when a dog is in prey drive chasing wildlife..

I dont have wpeosnal experience with this but I believe there is something called predation substitute training (force free) that is supposed to adress these issues in the way you are talking about. Simone Mueller has a book on it

If you have all the answers, what is your question? You have an issue and you don’t want to use aversives to fix it. So go find a force free trainer to fix it. I don’t understand what you want here.

 

[Jax08]

You already know everything. Go forth, apply all your knowledge. I'm sure it will be fine.

This thread just needs to be closed.

 

[jarn]

What are the force-free methods to not chase wildlife? I'm not trying to be argumentative, truly curious.

I'm not sure what safe outlet for a predatory drive would stop a dog with high prey drive from chasing wildlife on a hike.

I won't get into the rest of this thread, other than to say that we do not communicate with the dogs quite the same way we do other people. A prong has been a godsend for communicating with Agis when he breaks known commands, or, as a fairly 'low threshold' dog, needs a 'HEY THERE BUD' moment. It's nicer than my 'mean mommy' voice and far more effective.

I don't find the tool abusive in the slightest, but I've learned/been shown (by Shield! gasp) how to use it. They also showed us how to train first before it would even be used to correct (other than for reactivity, but Sal also taught us ways to limit reactivity through obedience so that a correction wouldn't BE necessary).

 

[Westcoastshepherd]

You obviously have no idea what "positive punishment" means.

Positive punishment does not equal abuse.

Did you look at the video that was posted for his haters? That is the same dog.

Proof is in the pudding.

+P is using an averaive stimulus to decrease a behavior..

Never said all punishment was abuse.. hard to define what constitutes as abuse to someone like you.. Even mild corrections have risk of fallout. Howver I would agree rhat they are not abusive. So where do you draw the line??

Most people would consider what is in that video abuse.. even haz gave a warning not to do this as you will screw up your dog mentally.. So just because his dog can handle it is not abuse?? Shameful attitude

 

[Westcoastshepherd]

You already know everything. Go forth, apply all your knowledge. I'm sure it will be fine.

This thread just needs to be closed.

I draw the line at abuse. You do not need to be a expert dog trainer to identify what abuse is.Some of you guys are too extreme. I am quite open minded and really not that soft, but after watching haz's video and having you guys defend his methods its very off-putting.

 

[Westcoastshepherd]

What are the force-free methods to not chase wildlife? I'm not trying to be argumentative, truly curious.

I'm not sure what safe outlet for a predatory drive would stop a dog with high prey drive from chasing wildlife on a hike.

I won't get into the rest of this thread, other than to say that we do not communicate with the dogs quite the same way we do other people. A prong has been a godsend for communicating with Agis when he breaks known commands, or, as a fairly 'low threshold' dog, needs a 'HEY THERE BUD' moment. It's nicer than my 'mean mommy' voice and far more effective.

I don't find the tool abusive in the slightest, but I've learned/been shown (by Shield! gasp) how to use it. They also showed us how to train first before it would even be used to correct (other than for reactivity, but Sal also taught us ways to limit reactivity through obedience so that a correction wouldn't BE necessary).

Rocket Recall: Unleash Your Dog's Desire to Return to You through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training) eBook : Mueller, Simone, Dickson, Lhanna : Amazon.ca: Books

Rocket Recall: Unleash Your Dog's Desire to Return to You through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training) eBook : Mueller, Simone, Dickson, Lhanna : Amazon.ca: Books

www.amazon.ca

I haven't read it yet as I don't have this problem with my dog.. maybe it's removed by moderator, I am not sure. She has another book on the topic as well

 

[hanshund]

Rocket Recall: Unleash Your Dog's Desire to Return to You through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training) eBook : Mueller, Simone, Dickson, Lhanna : Amazon.ca: Books

Rocket Recall: Unleash Your Dog's Desire to Return to You through Motivation-Based Training (Predation Substitute Training) eBook : Mueller, Simone, Dickson, Lhanna : Amazon.ca: Books

www.amazon.ca

I haven't read it yet as I don't have this problem with my dog.. maybe it's removed by moderator, I am not sure. She has another book on the topic as well

If it wasn't BS then someone would have collected the 50K in the video I posted already.

Force free is a hoax. Keep denying learning theory and mother nature.

 

[dogma13]

Enough arguing back and forth.It's pointless and not helpful to anybody

 

[Jax08]

I draw the line at abuse. You do not need to be a expert dog trainer to identify what abuse is.Some of you guys are too extreme. I am quite open minded and really not that soft, but after watching haz's video and having you guys defend his methods its very off-putting.

I have not once even addressed Haz or his methods. I've trained with him once at a weekend seminar that he was participating in. I saw nothing abusive when he was working his dog. That's the extent of my knowledge on the man so I would not address his video that I've never even watched nor will I take time in my life to do so.

yet, you...with your first dog...have ignored solid advice and proceeded to school the rest of us on what a "balanced" trainer is while telling us what we say is bs. You...with all your knowledge...are recommending books you haven't even read for training advise to others.

Sooo...why are you here? You don't want input. You want your opinion validated because you already know everything. You aren't even having a conversation addressing points. You just keep telling us that balanced trainers are abusive. LOL