[David Winners]

Does that mean they would growl and snap at the new owner/handler? Is this expected behavior from a dog destined for working?

Dogs are individuals. Some are jerks. Some are social. Some come up the leash when you correct them. Some are sensitive. If you are asking this question, don't get a green dog.

What I'm saying is that in order to take a dog with this kind of drive at 12-18 months old with no training, you have to know what you are doing. If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog. Fama bit me 4 times the first week I had her.

 

[David Winners]

I dealt with a little "handler aggression" here very early on. He nipped at my hand while I was releasing him. He was so young/small, looking back I've wondered if I even caught it the first time? Whatever the case, I was well prepared to shut that nonsense down next time around, but it never happened again. In other words I didn't even have to correct it. All it took was my being ready to correct it. Call it attitude? Poise? Vibe? I was ready, and that's all it took. My point simply being, I can easily see where something as simple as that might get totally out of control in the wrong hands.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.

A puppy nipping you testing the boundaries is completely unrelated to handler aggression in a mature(ing) dog.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

I think it does. I think little puppy gsd nips often grow into much bigger problems in the wrong hands

When I have seen [handler aggression] it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were ready for [ ]

 

[David Winners]

That isn’t too bad. It’s the ones were your in a constant struggle I like to avoid. When I have seen it, it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were ready for, or dogs that have had multiple handlers.

GSDs take a minute to trust you. You have to be able to read the dog and act accordingly to establish that trust. Many will try and punk you out. If this works, they own you.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog.

in this country many available dogs are "green" because they weren't aggressive enough to bother training. It's a mixed bag and you can probably find just about whatever you want if you look around.

 

[CactusWren]

Dogs are individuals. Some are jerks. Some are social. Some come up the leash when you correct them. Some are sensitive. If you are asking this question, don't get a green dog.

What I'm saying is that in order to take a dog with this kind of drive at 12-18 months old with no training, you have to know what you are doing. If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog. Fama bit me 4 times the first week I had her.

I hear you--trust me, I have no intention of getting a real working dog. Jupiter is quite enough! Just interested in how it is "on the other side."

 

[MineAreWorkingline]

I was lucky enough to be a part of a discussion years ago regarding handler aggression with well known and respected breeders and / or trainers of LE dogs, some of which used to post on this forum.

I walked away with the understanding that many dogs being trained for work aren't given the time to bond with their new handlers and that, coupled with often compulsion based training and strong dogs, can result in handler aggression. The other group of handlers that experience handler aggression tended to be men, especially young men, whose training was based in compulsion. All of the experienced people in the discussion concurred that handler aggression directed toward a female was uncommon.

 

[David Winners]

I would call all of that similar to my experience. Our handlers typically had an afternoon to become acquainted before training started the following morning. The way we avoided handler aggression was to not allow the handlers to correct the dog for anything their first week together. That works pretty well.

 

[LuvShepherds]

My trainer was given two 2 year old dogs when he first became a military handler, with basic obedience and nothing else and told to make it work. They were single purpose dogs. One was for sniffing bombs and the other for apprehension. He was young and green himself. He figured out a method he still uses today to train family or working dogs. Give the dog one task at a time, then allow the dog to choose that option. It works very well. He starts without compulsion, then eases into whatever is needed for the dog to choose the option it needs to learn. He has a lot of tools, some as simple as treats, praise or leash pressure, others more aversive but only if necessary. He has never been bitten by dogs he worked.

 

[Bearshandler]

I would call all of that similar to my experience. Our handlers typically had an afternoon to become acquainted before training started the following morning. The way we avoided handler aggression was to not allow the handlers to correct the dog for anything their first week together. That works pretty well.

My trainer was given two 2 year old dogs when he first became a military handler, with basic obedience and nothing else and told to make it work. They were single purpose dogs. One was for sniffing bombs and the other for apprehension. He was young and green himself. He figured out a method he still uses today to train family or working dogs. Give the dog one task at a time, then allow the dog to choose that option. It works very well. He starts without compulsion, then eases into whatever is needed for the dog to choose the option it needs to learn. He has a lot of tools, some as simple as treats, praise or leash pressure, others more aversive but only if necessary. He has never been bitten by dogs he worked.

I figured easing into training was the way to go. I figured you guys would have to get going sooner. I feel like it’s comparable to taking the leash of someone of someone else’s dog. Bear has never shown any aggression towards me, but I handed the leash to someone else who was trying to show me something, and he didn’t take to well to a leash pop. It wasn’t a major correction or anything, just to get his attention. He responded with a growl and stare down. I think it’s easier to bond without the previous handler around. As for the jerks, the growls aren’t a big deal. I’ve seen that happen to handlers with dogs they raised. If they actually come up lead, I think some good leash work will be your best friend.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

I've known 2 exceptions. Neither was gsd, but it happens.

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I was warned little igor's genetics tend toward handler aggression, but so far, so good here. I was told that goes all the way back to utz.

Within certain other breed working (protection/sport) breeder circles the "strategy" is to select way over the top handler aggressive breeding stock in hopes of higher % potential candidates per litter. I have no idea how prevalent that mentality is, but I've never heard of it with gsd.

 

[KevinK9]

I was warned little igor's genetics tend toward handler aggression, but so far, so good here. I was told that goes all the way back to utz.

It also depends on what pup your breeder selected for you in the litter. If you have a VPAT 4 pup, very unlikely to show this trait.

If you like this trait, I would be selecting VPAT 1 pups.

Lots of strong dogs coming through Tyson von der Schiffslache.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

I've seen tyson in the peds of great some looking dogs. And even in the case above, I really think it all comes down to the handler. Just because that guy couldn't handle that dog doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have been great on the end of somebody else's lead. I only posted that article as an example that it does happen in some cases.

 

[KevinK9]

I've seen tyson in the peds of great some looking dogs. And even in the case above, I really think it all comes down to the handler. Just because that guy couldn't handle that dog doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have been great on the end of somebody else's lead. I only posted that article as an example that it does happen in some cases.

I think certain lines have a genetic propensity for handler aggression. I'm also not talking about redirected/frustration handler aggression or poor foundational training either.

I agree that the handler is a factor of whether handler aggression manifests itself. And, I also agree that most dog owners aren't capable of handling these types of dogs.

Strong smart leadership, forming deep bonds, and trust with these types of dogs is paramount. Sometimes you have to go along with the dog without losing face.

Like David said, if you don't know what to do with this type of dog, they will own you. I would imagine that the average dog owner that encounters this type of dog usually ends up putting them to sleep thinking something is wrong with them. Nothing could be further from the truth. When you know how to handle this type of dog and form a deep relationship with it, they are the best IMO.

Also, I would point out too, that my experience with these types of dogs are from pups I've raise myself and not from someone else. I'm not as skilled nor have the experience like David, so I'm not sure if I would feel the same way about handler aggression if it was someone else who raised the pup.

 

[David Winners]

I had a lot of dog experience the first time a dog came up the leash for what I thought was nothing. I wasn't used to keeping up with a dog like Fama, mentally or physically. I was just behind the curve. It took a few weeks of school, 9 hour days, to adjust to the speed at which everything happens, and to relax enough to make good decisions and to be a leader. I paid for my mistakes, which is common.

When I started training green dogs, I was fairly prepared but again had to adjust to the DS and BM way of the world. They are different in that they are typically handler soft until they are in drive, and then they are over the top.

Anyways, you win with these dogs using your mind. You control resources. With a little creativity, there isn't a need for a lot of heavy corrections. The time will come, but if you are firm and don't get all emotional on the dog, you can set your relationship up fairly quickly. You have to be uber confident and really not worried about getting bit.

 

[berno von der seeweise]

my experience with these types of dogs are from pups I've raise myself and not from someone else.

my current dog, little igor, was the only 49 day old pup I've ever seen attack the VPAT umbrella, and he's fine. I trust him implicitly with all manner of baby livestock, kittens, etc., unsupervised, daily. Well, "attack" is probably a little strong, but he definitely taste tested it.

However as stated above I have known 2 (neither gsd) individuals with temperament faults so egregious they had to be put down. Take it from a man who won't never play piano right again: sometimes too much is too much.