[martemchik]

I've yet to meet a schutzhund person that would want a dog like this..."at the slightest hint of action, she will have a melt down. One time to the point where she almost choked herself out while I was trying to get her the heck out of dodge and she had to lay down and had diarrhea."

If your training group liked her that much...I have some idea of why you have the ideas you do about Schutzhund/working dogs/thresholds and everything else that goes along with training an IPO dog.

 

[blackshep]

You're right, you're clearly the expert based on all your nasty, erroneous posts to everyone all the time. I have no idea why you haven't been banned from here yet for your personal attacks.

Never mind then, I'll go. I'm not going to share my personal experiences or try to help anyone on here again.

 

[martemchik]

As to the OP, any of the lines will give you what you want...just make sure you go to a solid breeder. I would suggest any of the "German" lines and making sure the lines have been tested and are titled. That will at least show that the dogs have been worked and have a strong enough temperament to get an IPO title.

The “exercise” you describe might not be enough for either line though. It’s not just about running around a large farm and having fun, it’s about working the dog, giving it a job, training it to do something. A lot of running will only do so much for the dog…it needs to be mentally stimulated every day.

 

[Steve Strom]

I'm in the early stages of starting to look for a puppy, or more importantly a good breeder in Maryland or PA. I know a little about GSDs but nothing about buying a puppy or the differences between show line and working line. I live on a large farm and am a very active person. The dog would not be left to roam on it's own under no circumstances unsupervised. My ideal dog would be one with a medium/more relaxed energy level with an affectionate and playful temperament. I am around the farm most of the time and if I'm not my husband is so the dog won't be left alone often. We have lots of different people and dogs constantly coming and going on the farm so it would have to be a friendly confident dog. We wouldn't be doing any kind of protection training, showing, or things of that nature but I would like to possibly train it to shed hunt so tracking ability would be a plus. I absolutely love the GSD I have now and I believe she is a working line dog but she was adopted so I do not know for sure. Any advice or information is very much appreciated

I think for what you want Astro, the lines mean less then the actual dogs. The best thing to do would be go out and meet some breeders and their dogs, the actual dogs being bred. I'm biased towards the working lines just based on what I would see at dog shows vs Ipo, but I've seen showline dogs that can track perfectly fine for what you'd like to do.

To decide anything on temperament, its going to be about nerves, for you I would think. A nice solid dog that's confident. I wouldn't get into the weeds on drives and thresholds online. All that stuff makes a lot more sense when someone can show you the dogs and how they act/react to different things, especially thresholds. They can be real situational.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Astrovan, the following is not directed at you, it is meant in general regarding this whole SL vs WL debate that goes on. Just gotta say something I've wanted to say for awhile.

OP is not interested in IPO. So 'out in the weeds' is appropriate comment IMO.

People who are not interested in National level podium IPO dogs may be just fine with a WGSL at club level IPO.

This board is biased towards working lines and that's fine.

They are a joy to watch, when paired with the right owner/handler and trained well, doing what they were meant to do on the field or working with a police or military partner. Amazing magnificent animals.

They are however, not for everybody. Almost every day I'm working with rescue groups trying to place working lines. People get them and they simply cannot handle these dogs. Right now, I and friend are trying to help some folks who are now the 4th home for this 2 year old working line dog (unbeknownst to the breeder who has been notified and was shocked to learn how this dog has been passed around). He was recently evaluated, great dog in the right hands, but he's NOT an easy dog for the average pet owner. We've hooked the new owners up with a good trainer IPO/Protection/Police working line enthusiast who will hopefully help this dog stay put in this home.

In general:

I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.

What I'm trying to say is I get that most here are biased to working lines, but most here ARE the type of homes who make these dogs look good. I am just asking that the bias be tempered a bit by the reality of what *most* average pet owners can really handle in their lives.

O.k. I hope I don't get in too much hot water, the above is food for thought from someone who deals day in and day out with the reality of average pet owners.

 

[DJEtzel]

If you are doing protection sports and your dog has a very high threshold, there are those who would say, that is not ideal, because they aren't going to react to the decoy. She's be an amazing dog for a more experienced handler doing shutzhund (my group loved her), but I'm a novice who wanted to branch out to other sports, one of which is flyball which is too much for her.

She didn't have the nerve for flyball, but she had the nerve for IPO?

 

[lhczth]

I think for what you want Astro, the lines mean less then the actual dogs. The best thing to do would be go out and meet some breeders and their dogs, the actual dogs being bred. I'm biased towards the working lines just based on what I would see at dog shows vs Ipo, but I've seen showline dogs that can track perfectly fine for what you'd like to do.

To decide anything on temperament, its going to be about nerves, for you I would think. A nice solid dog that's confident. I wouldn't get into the weeds on drives and thresholds online. All that stuff makes a lot more sense when someone can show you the dogs and how they act/react to different things, especially thresholds. They can be real situational.

:thumbup:

 

[lhczth]

Hey, people, lay off blackshep. This thread is not about them or their dog.

ADMIN

 

[Steve Strom]

She didn't have the nerve for flyball, but she had the nerve for IPO?

Hey Dj, its really impossible to get an accurate picture of nerves/thresholds by online descriptions. I have one I'd call a nervebag in terms of IPO. SDA, he's a rock star.

 

[zetti]

Astrovan, the following is not directed at you, it is meant in general regarding this whole SL vs WL debate that goes on. Just gotta say something I've wanted to say for awhile.

OP is not interested in IPO. So 'out in the weeds' is appropriate comment IMO.

People who are not interested in National level podium IPO dogs may be just fine with a WGSL at club level IPO.

This board is biased towards working lines and that's fine.

They are a joy to watch, when paired with the right owner/handler and trained well, doing what they were meant to do on the field or working with a police or military partner. Amazing magnificent animals.

They are however, not for everybody. Almost every day I'm working with rescue groups trying to place working lines. People get them and they simply cannot handle these dogs. Right now, I and friend are trying to help some folks who are now the 4th home for this 2 year old working line dog (unbeknownst to the breeder who has been notified and was shocked to learn how this dog has been passed around). He was recently evaluated, great dog in the right hands, but he's NOT an easy dog for the average pet owner. We've hooked the new owners up with a good trainer IPO/Protection/Police working line enthusiast who will hopefully help this dog stay put in this home.

In general:

I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.

What I'm trying to say is I get that most here are biased to working lines, but most here ARE the type of homes who make these dogs look good. I am just asking that the bias be tempered a bit by the reality of what *most* average pet owners can really handle in their lives.

O.k. I hope I don't get in too much hot water, the above is food for thought from someone who deals day in and day out with the reality of average pet owners.

Some of the mellowest, best house dogs I've ever had have been WL. Conversely, I had a SL who was a hectic maniac in the house until he was 5.

My WLs have had on/off switches & knew the difference between the ScH field & the living room.

 

[Discoetheque]

I agree with everyone who is saying to first start your search with a good, reputable breeder who breeds healthy, stable dogs. The GSD should be a stable and ready companion, regardless of lines. Health and longevity, along with stability of temperament should be at the top of the pyramid, and there are healthy and stable dogs in all iterations of the GSD, just as there are unhealthy, unsound dogs in all iterations.

I love my WGSL dog. She's the greatest GSD I have ever owned and probably will ever own. Has not been to the vet for much of anything other than her physicals/vaccines in her 5.5 years of life. She was one of the only dogs to obtain her CGC-A and TDI in the evaluation we attended in May. She is started in IPO, and would likely be further than her current stopping point had I not made some poor financial choices in my life and actually been able to continue her training and trialling. She'll fire up and simmer down when she needs to.

Get out there, meet some dogs, meet some breeders. Visit some different venues, clubs, shows and learn about who is bringing what to the table.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

That's why I said 'in general'.

Look, people talk about how the WLs are so great because they can work, work all day and on and on.

I go to IPO trials and train with WLs and MOST of the WL owners say the exact opposite of the below. They joke around about how when it's safe to let the dogs out of the crate. They are proud of their dogs higher energy and work ethic.

What I have learned is what people say on this forum and what they say around other WL owners are two entirely different things. I'm not sure why that is but it is.

Now they LOVE their dogs, I also think their dogs are awesome, BUT they simply are not always the easiest 'pet' dogs to have.

Yes there is variations amongst individuals but we are talking about generalities here and people like their WLs BECAUSE they are generally different from show lines and there in lies the conundrum, you see.

I'd also like to pose this hypothetical. Since WLs are more the 'in' type of GSD these days to have, they may end up suffering the "101 Dalamations" fate. Where their reputation will become bad after enough bad breeders and bad owners get ahold of them. So think of that way too, sometimes it's better for the WLs to not be presented as an dog for all people all the time.

Some of the mellowest, best house dogs I've ever had have been WL. Conversely, I had a SL who was a hectic maniac in the house until he was 5.

My WLs have had on/off switches & knew the difference between the ScH field & the living room.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

In blue, when I first started looking into WL vs SL this was some of the most valuable advice given. This forum is great, a lot of valuable information but some of it conflicts with what one sees and hears IRL.

:thumbup:

I agree with everyone who is saying to first start your search with a good, reputable breeder who breeds healthy, stable dogs. The GSD should be a stable and ready companion, regardless of lines. Health and longevity, along with stability of temperament should be at the top of the pyramid, and there are healthy and stable dogs in all iterations of the GSD, just as there are unhealthy, unsound dogs in all iterations.

I love my WGSL dog. She's the greatest GSD I have ever owned and probably will ever own. Has not been to the vet for much of anything other than her physicals/vaccines in her 5.5 years of life. She was one of the only dogs to obtain her CGC-A and TDI in the evaluation we attended in May. She is started in IPO, and would likely be further than her current stopping point had I not made some poor financial choices in my life and actually been able to continue her training and trialling. She'll fire up and simmer down when she needs to.

Get out there, meet some dogs, meet some breeders. Visit some different venues, clubs, shows and learn about who is bringing what to the table.

 

[lhczth]

I have owned, lived with, trained, and titled WL for 30 years. A dog that can not settle, does not have an on off switch, is a poor representative of the breed no matter the lines. Some of my dogs would be or would have been totally suitable for an active pet home (sorry, I don't believe GSD belong in couch potato homes). Some would have or would be way too much dog, but not because of their drive level (high energy and high drive are not the same) but because of their overall personality. I see good and bad of all lines in our OB classes and also at the SchH clubs. The good ones come from breeders that attempt to breed sound balanced dogs. The others do not.

OP needs to see dogs and find a breeder breeding for a balanced correct GSD (not all that easy anymore, unfortunately, especially in the states).

 

[d4mmo]

Working line is the only way to go because that is a REAL German shepherd. The German shepherd was originally bred to have a straight back, they were bred to both guard sheep from wolves and also herd them. They were built to work all day and have the athleticism to fend off a wolf or other predator that attempted to harm the flock, and a GSD with a straight back is what can do that. The slanted back you see on a showline dog has no functional purpose and has often been reputed to be the reason of hip dysplasia. I have owned both showline and working line GSD.. the showline AWAYS had hip problems, the working line would live past 10 and still have excellent hips... coincidence... no.. Keep the GSD how they were intended to be!

This is my boy

West german show line. And has atleast a v rating and sg in very generation. He has a straight back, good angulation and is top of his class at the german shepherd dog club which is made up of mainly working line gsd. He excels in obedience and is by far the best in agility in his class. Don't even get me started on temperament.
Don't be a fool
Your post is false and misleading.
There is good and bad in all lines.
Some lines do have more problems then others.
A good breeder loves the breed and will not do anything that will cause harm to it. A good breeder cares about his reputation and cares about his dogs
A good breeder will give you the best chance of getting what you want.
Don't get baited into the show vs work issue

 

[ugavet2012]

I didn't say she was fearful? Where did I say that? I said she had a lower prey drive threshold than I'd like.

Also, we don't do schutzhund anymore, although the group I trained with want me to bring her back, I don't have time to travel that far.

Can we get back on topic for the OP rather than attacking me and making this about you being a right fighter?

If you are doing protection sports and your dog has a very high threshold, there are those who would say, that is not ideal, because they aren't going to react to the decoy. She's be an amazing dog for a more experienced handler doing shutzhund (my group loved her), but I'm a novice who wanted to branch out to other sports, one of which is flyball which is too much for her.

My dog, for myself, has a bit too low a threshold. The schutzhund people I trained with love her, but it's not ideal for me in my real life, since it also means her prey drive (I do flyball) was off the charts and she would have a meltdown. Two totally different sports. What worked for one, did not work at all for the other.

I just wanted to let you know I know EXACTLY what you mean by this post as this is exactly how I would describe my GSD. She is very entertaining to watch in IPO, but not a good GSD in general, and she would be awesome at flyball if I could stop her from having a meltdown. I swear most of your posts about your dog sound so much like mine if I didn't know better I would think they are directed related but I highly doubt that. My dog is very hard to live with in general, and we have a love/hate relationship because there are parts of her temperament I love and parts I hate terribly.

She is much harder to live with than either Malinois I have.

Actually many would de scribe her as somewhat fearful/nervy but she is not a liability to do IPO with. The club I trained with in GA outside ATL would not have allowed me to train her if so. I have worked with her a ton to make sure she is not a liability in any way and I could most likely finish club level titles with her. I think it would be really sad if someone did not allow me to train with their club because my dog can be fearful. She has never tried to bite someone or ever even acted like she was going to. She is actually easier to handle by strangers than most peoples dogs in IPO I have been around who are not fearful.
Just adding in that Steve Strom's post is right on, because I understand exactly what black shep is trying to say because I could have written a post just like that about my own.

 

[RubyTuesday]

I work with the average Joe pet owner every day and most of them can't even train a Shih Tzu or happy exuberant goober of a lab.

Quibbling here, but I think this is an extremely important thing to understand...GSDs, regardless of which lines they're descended from, should be among the most readily trained dogs there are. They should be overall easier to train than a lab & MUCH more easily trained than a Shih Tzu. About the only breeds that compare to the GSD in intelligence, ease of training & genetic obedience are Poodles & (possibly) Goldens. Uber, uber intelligent, sensitive, GREAT instincts & a drive to work with & please the owner are indispensible characteristics of the GSD.

 

[qbchottu]

Based on OP's needs and requirements, I would recommend a moderate to higher drive showline or a lower drive working dog - both need excellent on/off switches.

As mentioned, find a trustworthy breeder, go out and see the dogs, meet the different lines, and make a decision based on your evaluation at that point.

 

[Liesje]

I don't think lines matter much here. There are many people, myself included, that have owned and trained both show line and working line dogs (and even some crosses) and it really boils down to the individual DOG. Find some good breeders that are respected in the breed community. If they don't have what you want, they will refer you to others that may.

 

[Gwenhwyfair]

Easier to find a moderate drive Showline then lower drive working line? Yes?

(Hi btw )

Based on OP's needs and requirements, I would recommend a moderate to higher drive showline or a lower drive working dog - both need excellent on/off switches.

As mentioned, find a trustworthy breeder, go out and see the dogs, meet the different lines, and make a decision based on your evaluation at that point.