[horsegirl]

Under the SV system, a dog must have an SchH1, a be evaluated by a breed steward as adhering to the standard, and pass hip and elbow evaluations in order to be approved for breeding. They don't have to have that in order to be registered and recognized as German Shepherds, but they do have to have it to be bred.

I am talking about the standard not breeding , sorry

 

[robinhuerta]

Emoore.....I think that stud dogs have to have DNA now, if they sire 3 or more litters.
To DNA test the puppies....the parents would both have to have DNA on file...and each puppy needs to be individually tested.
This is usually done when a litter has the possibility of "multiple sires". They do have a way to test now.

 

[Emoore]

sorry when i read it there was only one link. but I guess comparing the german standard to american standard would be more apples to apples . sv whats that? us shutzund club?
sounds like a club ?

SV = German Shepherd breed registry and governing body of German Shepherds in Germany. Kind of like the AKC, but it's in Germany and only for GSDs. It stands for Verein de Deutsche Schaferhund, or Schaferhund Verein, SV for short.



**please excuse my lack of umlauts.

 

[Emoore]

Emoore.....I think that stud dogs have to have DNA now, if they sire 3 or more litters.

I wasn't aware, thanks!

To DNA test the puppies....the parents would both have to have DNA on file...and each puppy needs to be individually tested.
This is usually done when a litter has the possibility of "multiple sires". They do have a way to test now.

But wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of AKC puppies are not DNA tested?

I am talking about the standard not breeding , sorry

Breeding and the standard are two sides of the same coin, how do you separate them? Without breeding, there's no reason for a standard, and without the standard how do you know what you're breeding *for*?

 

[Catu]

:rolleyes2:
The worst blind man is the one who doesn't want to see...

 

[horsegirl]

Who is they? The AKC or the buying public? I'm confused about your question.

I don't think the AKC is necessarily a shoddy organization, it's the best we've got here in America for sure.. They do a great job putting on performance and conformation events, they do a good job of trying to educate dog owners, I applaud their efforts with the CGC and STAR puppy program. It just doesn't deserve its reputation as an ensurer of quality that it has among the general dog buying public.

No hate on the AKC, but it's a simple fact that there are no requirements to be bred or registered beyond having registered parents and paying a fee. It is a fact that pedigree buying goes on-- people buy the pedigree and AKC registration number of a deceased or neutered dog and use it for their unregistered dog to produce "registered" puppies. This can happen because breeding stock is not required to have permanent identification or be DNA tested unless they are producing more than 5 litters. Even then there is no DNA testing to prove that the puppies in question belong to the DNA tested dog.

you answered my question, thats the reason people register with akc then hmmmm

I bet the same thing happens in germany

 

[robinhuerta]

Absolutely Emoore...I agree.

 

[Emoore]

I bet the same thing happens in germany

I'm sure it does, but it's harder because breeding animals are required to have permanent identification that matches them to their registration.

 

[horsegirl]

I wasn't aware, thanks!



But wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of AKC puppies are not DNA tested?



Breeding and the standard are two sides of the same coin, how do you separate them? Without breeding, there's no reason for a standard, and without the standard how do you know what you're breeding *for*?

good point , but I am really just talking about the standard , for the regular everyday person , who occasionally shows , hearding or some type of aggression training. Not about people that have given their lives to the breed.

 

[horsegirl]

:rolleyes2:
The worst blind man is the one who doesn't want to see...

the worst person is someone who walks by a blind man stumbling and doesn't help , just laughs or treats them like they are less than, and thinks they are actually one of the good guys

 

[Chris Wild]

The SV and AKC are not equivalent. The AKC is comprised of breed clubs, and it is those individual breed clubs who determine what, if any, breeding regulations are in place for that breed. The breed club for the GSD in America is GSDCA. The breed club for GSDs in Germany is the SV, which is a member of a larger organization of breed clubs, the VDH, just as GSDCA is a member of AKC.

The AKC is nothing but a registry to maintain the paperwork. The breed clubs control the breeds. If they wanted titles and hip certs and such for breeding, then the AKC would institute those requirements.

AKC is also the ONLY registry in the US that is recognized internationally and has a relationship with the FCI. Which means that yes, AKC papers are important to many people for many reasons. But they have never, and should never, be taken to be a stamp of quality. Nor were they ever intended to be. Merely a testament to purebred status and known pedigree.

 

[horsegirl]

Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported.

How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?

why has no one answered your question?

 

[Emoore]

good point , but I am really just talking about the standard , for the regular everyday person , who occasionally shows , hearding or some type of aggression training. Not about people that have given their lives to the breed.

OK I see what you're saying. Yes, under the SV system you can have a registered German Shepherd who has never bitten anything but dog biscuits and has never been to an event or had his hips x-rayed. But his parents, his grand parents, and his great-grandparents have for nearly a century. (except for the x-ray thing. Not sure when that was instituted.)

 

[Emoore]

why has no one answered your question?

Robin did:

In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.

 

[horsegirl]

In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.

ah so there may be a total mixture of all lines in the current american bred working lines then?

 

[Chris Wild]

Under the SV system, a puppy can only be registered if both parents meet the requirements of title, show rating, breed survey and hip and elbow certifications.

Can one breed a dog without those things? Certainly. But it's offspring cannot be registered. They may be purebred GSDs, but would be the equivalent of unpapered BYB dogs.

Of course while this all sounds grand, and this system did help maintain quality for a number of years, the reality is that over time things shifted and instead of making sure the dog's met the standards, the standards were lowered to meet the common denominator of dogs, and quality has suffered as a result.

 

[horsegirl]

OK I see what you're saying. Yes, under the SV system you can have a registered German Shepherd who has never bitten anything but dog biscuits and has never been to an event or had his hips x-rayed. But his parents, his grand parents, and his great-grandparents have for nearly a century. (except for the x-ray thing. Not sure when that was instituted.)

thanks you have been very patient, it feels really good to get away from the negative talk that always seems to happen on here. I know we are all very passionate about the breed ( or we would not spend a whole night typing about them) lol

 

[Chris Wild]

There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.

 

[horsegirl]

Under the SV system, a puppy can only be registered if both parents meet the requirements of title, show rating, breed survey and hip and elbow certifications.

Can one breed a dog without those things? Certainly. But it's offspring cannot be registered.

Of course while this all sounds grand, and this system did help maintain quality for a number of years, the reality is that over time things shifted and instead of making sure the dog's met the standards, the standards were lowered to meet the common denominator of dogs, and quality has suffered as a result.

thanks , very helpful!

 

[Emoore]

There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.

This. People in America breeding working line dogs are either breeding dogs imported from Germany, or dogs of recent German ancestry.