After being educated on the forum about litter mate syndrome, I totally believed a single parent of triplets when she said that the triplets developed their own language for the three of them and one triplet distracts her while the other two triplets are up to real mischief. The mom appears to be totally out numbered (and out-witted) with 8 year-olds that are triplets and is seeking professional help.

 

I took Scarlet out to my breeder's house today, and she got to run in the woods with her litter sister. They are four and a half months old. Oh, dear. There is no way I'd want those two hooligans at my house at the same time, full time. No littermates for me, lol.

 

I fully believe a trainer type can pull it off no issues (minus the normal ones that always come with dogs). I've trained siblings that lived in the same house for a client (boxers) and it turned out just fine. The client was guided from the beginning though. They were socialized with large groups of dogs at a young age, and obedience and training happened early and was maintained. It did involve a lot of the stuff mentioned. Training sessions were separate, play sessions were sometimes separate.

The trick to it is finding balance and being a bit greedy about who the dogs see as the center of their world. I don't like any situation where my dog will pick X over me. I am the owner thy handler and you shall have no other handlers/distractions before me. So if I was to see my pup start to obsess over anything be it a litter mate, toy, etc and I have difficulty getting the dog to peel off for me it is going to be worked on until it is no longer an issue. It helps if you have a pushy side to your personality though. I am a badger about getting my way and not even the most pushy, hardheaded, determined dog is going to win a battle of wills. The dog will always see it my way in the end. It is a job though.

If you get a puppy it is getting yourself a job. If you get two puppies you are doubling that extra workload. Two dogs at the same blank slate level of development will learn to bounce things off each other. I don't think the fact the dogs are genetically related really play that big a role in the "syndrome" I think what is really happening is you are bringing two animals into a situation that are young and do not have a history of conditioning to life in the house and surrounding environment separately, and they tend to bounce their energies off each other and it tends to add up to crazy.

Give you an example: A puppy normally when being let out of the house in the morning is taken out of the crate and the bedroom door opens the dog walks down the hallway with you and to the back door where you let him out into the yard to go to the bathroom. Normal, controlled, dog moves with you at a walking pace outside. This is the routine that conditions.

Second scenario you have two puppies siblings or not IMO it doesn't matter. You let one out of the crate and it bounds super excitedly over to the puppy in the second crate waiting for you to open the door to let his buddy out, and hes throwing a play bow and going nuts in preparation for the other puppy's door to open it does and they go FLYING off down that hallway to the back door together bouncing off each other the whole way, you open the door and they go flying out into the yard at max speed. Puppy speed is faster than normal human walking speed so they tend to move with each other instead of slowing to follow you as they normally would have done alone (many times anyway). Their energy levels also sync up to each other instead of yours because they're puppies and their energy levels are higher naturally so they will bounce this off each other as well. This is the routine that conditions. It also gets worse the more they practice it. Faster and faster down the hallway, more excited as they practice it.

They later on they see that hallway, even outside of the behavior of that morning lets say they are just walking from the bedroom to the living room and see the hallway on the way. Dog in scenario A walks down it because this is the conditioned action down that hallway. Dogs in scenario B go flying off down that hallway because that is the conditioned action down that hallway.

Third scenario is you have an older dog lets say the dog from scenario A that is a few years old. You get a puppy. You let older dog out of the crate in the morning he is conditioned to stick with you and move down the hallway with you. Puppy follows suit because that's what both of you are doing. This is the routine that conditions.

Make sense?

How could that be avoided? Teach each puppy the proper way to go down that hallway together. Extra effort that normally wouldn't need to happen.

 

I hear that the best way to approach having 2 pups at the same time is to completely separate them from one another. Crate them in different ends of the house, separate walks, separate play and training sessions. Like you said, a trainer type can pull it off and many do.

 

I'm glad they pointed out that not all litter mates will have these issues, however I do understand it happens often enough for the need to discourage it.

 

I think littermates could be an issue. But anyone willing to put in effort can own two similar aged dogs without issue.

 

I've had two puppies that were 4 months apart, and it was a whole lot of work initially. Way more work than the average dog owner would want to deal with, especially with big dogs. Like Baillif said, so much energy to deal with when you have two puppies winding each other up. I experienced it today with our walk in the woods.

Could I do it again? Absolutely. Would I want to? Nope.

 

But there is a flip side to that energy coin. Once they have run and exercised with each other, then they are ready to learn, or rest, or play quietly, or nap, etc., while the singleton has tons of excess energy ready to be burned off and is raring to go. Which situation would you prefer when you are heading out the door for work or a training session?

 

You are one of the most experienced dog owners on this forum. If I was going to get two at once, I would go to you for advice on how to make it work.

 

I consider it my job to exercise and meet my dog's needs. Tug, flirt pole, chuckit ball retrieves, walks in the woods, exploring new places, etc -

Anyone can do 20 to 30 minutes of exercise and play to tire out their pup. Dogs that need hours and hours of running out flat to settle have nerve issues. Sure having two dogs is fun, sure they can tire each other out - but as the articles say, they need to be separated most of the time, have maybe 90% of one-on-one interaction with their human. That half hour, or one hour a day play session with their littermate (if you are raising them right) will tire out your pup, but people will still need to raise them separately for the remainder 23 hours in the day - few people have the ability to put that much time into their pups - heck, 99% of the people out there in the general public won't even give their dogs ten minutes of their time!

 

That is true but my statement was qualified with after the exercise "heading out the door for work or a training session".

I have raised many puppies of the same age in pairs, and I NEVER once had two pups bond so deeply with each other or to any degree as stated in so many of these articles. I am sure it happens, but I have yet to see it. If anything, I see more aggression issues.

 

Having one pup is a hobby. Raising two pups close in age is a lifestyle/job. It really isn't too hard to raise two pups and have you be the center of their world. When I get home and let the dogs out of their crates they rush to the back door to get outside but if I just open the door, let them out and stay inside they all 3 stand outside the door waiting on me to come out or let them back in so they can be with me. Once I have petted and smacked them around they go do their potty thing and will run off some energy. But as baliff said it helps to be some sort of control freak.
But a lot of dog owners struggle with one dog so having two would probably be too much.

 

I don't think it's 100% that it can't or shouldn't be done. I think it depends on the person and/or the family. If you're a young family, both work and have small children, then no, not a good scene for anyone of the involved. But there are those who are willing to make the commitment needed, have the knowledge or are willing to seek out the knowledge and can do it successfully. The key is to really understand what you are undertaking and making a solid commitment to do everything it takes for success. Without that, it won't work.

 

I think it depends on a number of factors. The individual temperaments of the puppies is huge. But also the experience, management, leadership style, and expectations of the primary care-giver. Since I live alone, I really do not know what effect other members of a household would have on a pair of littermates.

I don't generally place littermates in the same home, though I have raised several sets myself without issue. I don't have a typical set up, and I have no one inadvertantly thwarting my efforts. I do have a pair of littermates out there, males, who are 2 1/2 years old, and it is working out fine. I homed the one puppy with the people and after about 2 months of almost constant contact with the owner, I went ahead and sold her the other puppy. So the first puppy had 6-8 weeks with the new owner before the second puppy came there. The second puppy remained in a litter setting with at least one litter mate and his dam until 16 weeks when he got his last set of shots and went to live with this lady and his brother.

She has a part-time son of about 7 years, and a fiance. When I sold her the dogs that was it, but then her X gave her back an older female, and her brother dropped his boxer into the mix. So, she now has four dogs. 3 young males and an old bitch, all altered, if that matters at all. The boys do not have any serious aggression issues, or problems bonding with people. The puppies split their favorites between the gal and her fiance. I do not know if there are any separation issues. But, when you have 4 dogs or more, the dogs are rarely alone. Separation issues often occur when a dog finds himself alone. I think that the dog you take with you, to classes or the vet, what have you, does not have that separation problem because it is with you and excited about what is coming.

If you take a dog out of a group, and then work with it in front of the group that is kenneled, the rest of the group are going to act nutty. It's like taking a child and feeding it ice-cream in front of a bunch of other children for whom ice cream is a rare treat. They may not jump up and down and bark, but what is probably going on inside of them, is what is going on with the other dogs/puppies freely.

So some initial carrying on will happen when one dog is removed to go anywhere. If this is a common occurrence, then once the car leaves the driveway, everyone settles down to their normal routine, if they are not totally alone. Some dogs truly do not do well with being on their own. Littermates or no littermates, some dogs, when separated from the other dog in the home, will freak out -- separation anxiety. If you bring a puppy home at 8 weeks, and you have an older dog, and for 6 months, they go everywhere together, or are together alone, or the puppy goes for classes or to the vet with you. All good. But then leave that 8 month old puppy at home alone when you take the dog to the vet, and if that 8 month old has that in her personality, that is where it will come out. Even a cat helps to make a puppy feel less alone.

And there is loneliness and separation anxiety. Loneliness might make a pup feel a little lost, and he will try to amuse himself by barking or chewing or digging, or even some depression. Separation anxiety, I think is where you get into dangerous behavior like scratching holes in walls or ripping out of crates in an attempt to escape. Maybe the two are the same, just on a spectrum. I don't know. Certainly the two dogs do not need to be litter-mates, or even close in age and acquired around the same to time for this to occur.

Most of my dogs I have known from birth, but none of them, even the ones that have lived for months or even years with other people are more bonded with the other dogs than me. I think maybe this is where pet owners, who have 1-3 dogs try too hard. People do not give animals the time and freedom to accept them, and rather, push themselves onto their pets.

What happens when you go with a group to a friend's or relative's home who has a dog you have never met? You zero in and try to engage the dog. The dog gives you his tail and gravitates toward the only member of the group who could care less about dogs. Maybe not all dogs, but it seems like most dogs do this.

And when we get a new puppy, of course we are going to be nuts about it. If a new puppy has another new puppy to gravitate towards, it may, I suppose, stay at a distance from the humans that keep trying to make it do this, or that, which are really not dog-behaviors: hugs, kisses, etc.

On the other hand, a crappy breeder who has to get to work every day, rushes through cleaning kennels and giving food and water to everyone, and maybe saves a few minutes to pet the puppies. And those pups crawl all over each other to lick her face, chew on her hands, try to trip her, and get hugs and pets. It's something like 7 parts trust, and 3 parts not expecting the puppy to produce golden poop.

 

We have always had 2 dogs (litter mates) & have never experienced any issues as described in that article. Each respective dog (in each pair) picked either my wife or I as his main point of interest, yet we all interacted as a family pack.

Also, we never considered that having 2 to be double the work load, just double the expense... Did our lives revolve around our 'children'? Of course it did, but both my wife & I loved spending all our time with them. If we were younger, we would do it again in a heartbeat... but we aren't young any longer (we are in the autumn of our lives so to speak). This will be the first time in our lives that we have a single dog.

 

I have no idea how some couples have a small child or children both parents hold down a steady job and then decide they want puppies too. Freaking crazy. I need time to decompress and I actually like what I do. I have three malinois and I don't bat an eye at that, but kids work and a puppy? Nonono.

 

I don't have kids. I have had my nieces for a week or 10 days, and I am convinced that that is a whole lot different than being a parent and having them from baby on up. Now, those nieces are actually a help rather than a hindrance when it comes to the dogs. If I had to take care of my little sister's girls and my dogs, 24/7, and work full-time, I'd probably just shoot myself. Caring for dogs is way easier/less complicated than kids, as it should be.

 

Many people think that having two puppies is twice the fun and better for the pups to have a playmate growing up, but getting littermates, or trying to raise two puppies close in age is QUADRUPLE the work, and has serious potential of having a negative impact on the puppies, and on your relationship with the puppies.

Here is an article that explains the issues and problems from the well respected Dr.Mercola/Dr.Becker team at healthypets.mercola.com



The full article is not too long, and touches on the most important issues of littermate syndrome:

Signs of Littermate Syndrome in Pets

I wanted to sticky this here to make it accessible to members who are thinking of getting two puppies.
We have a number of linked articles for further reading in this section:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...elcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/167994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html

That is true for the average pet owner, especially someone who has never raised a German Shepherd or a similar type dog. It's not true of everyone. My friend bred a litter of Cavs, kept the mother and two female puppies and had no problems at all with the puppies or her other dogs. She had 4 dogs. My mom got two sisters, a mother small breed and had no problems. They were very attached to each other, but one died and the other went on as if nothing had happened.

 

i was actually just going to make a post asking this exact question!

i am planning on getting a GSD and also a Golden Retriever towards the end of the year. I have had 2 GSDs in the past (not at the same time). both reached off-leash training etc...so definitely have a decent background in training and the work puppies require!

My question is, would i be in a better position getting them around the same age (+/- 1-3months) or would i be better waiting at least 6-8months after i get the first one? If the latter, would there be a preference in breed to get first? I just didn't want to have solid training on the first dog get destroyed when the pup gets in the house but i also didn't want territorial issues with the first dog not accepting the second.

The reason we are planning on getting them towards the end of the year is our upcoming timeline in our lives, we have nothing major in the next 1-2 years coming up so it gives us ample time to dedicate towards the dogs as we work from home...so we didn't want to wait more than 6-8 months in between dogs to keep everything in line.

 

You would have more time with each one if you get them at different times. Who is going to train each one? If you split the training, where you each take one dog and work solely with that dog, it could work. I prefer getting mine with space between ages.

 

thats what i figured. so you recommend waiting around 6-8 months in between each?

in regards to training, its between me and my significant other. (golden more for her and GSD more for me). I'm usually pretty strict on training and schedules as I've been thru it with 2 pups in the past!

if getting the golden first, as long as the its had solid training hopefully it sticks with the GSD pup comes in!

with getting 2 males, it'll boil down to the individual dog more correct?

 

IME, I would wait at least one year before bringing in another male dog.

Also, because the GSD is likely to have a stronger temperament, I would get the GSD first or you might have a struggle between a softer older male vs a more dominant younger dog that could result in fights.

 

luckily i still have plenty of time to decide but i do want to put deposits down on breedings when needed. I am still doing my research and talking to the local trainers here to figure out what is the best way to go. We have the infrastructure setup to raise 2 puppies at the same time but i want to do whats overall best. I read above that i should wait at least a year to get the second dog but that would put a hitch in the timeline we have planned for the next few years.

 

Getting having 6 to 8 months between pups is still having two puppies. The older pup may be go strong and too rough in play with the younger one, and may cause injury, or may overwhelm the puppy, creating insecurity and fear.

Your older pup will be entering the teen-age phase at the time you get the new pup, and you'll have to deal with a teen-ager with little self-control who is testing his boundaries at the same time as dealing with a new puppy. Better to wait two or three years between dogs - that seems to be a formula that works out well.

 

Should you only not by litter mates for germans or any breed? I'm looking to get a german but my wife wants a smaller dog. If we get one of each, would the same issues arise? Thanks for the help!

 

I believe keeping 2 puppies at the same time can be considered or result in both, good and bad situation, cause it all depends on you that how you are planning to grow them... if you can invest your time, it can turn out to be a spectacular opportunity! So, i'll talk about my experience that is going on for the last 1.5 year and my West Highland White Terrier and GSD grew up together and yes, i did get them at the age of 2 months... Westie being female and GSD being male, they play but never tried to go rough... I believe they always stayed behind the lines where things could go wrong between them...
So, meanwhile, it is all up to you how you handle it!

 

I believe keeping 2 puppies at the same time can be considered or result in both, good and bad situation, cause it all depends on you that how you are planning to grow them... if you can invest your time, it can turn out to be a spectacular opportunity! So, i'll talk about my experience that is going on for the last 1.5 year and my West Highland White Terrier and GSD grew up together and yes, i did get them at the age of 2 months... Westie being female and GSD being male, they play but never tried to go rough... I believe they always stayed behind the lines where things could go wrong between them...
So, meanwhile, it is all up to you how you handle it!

Yeah no. I cannot agree with this. It is far more important what the make up of the individual dogs is, and how that will mesh.

Your pups are 1.5 years old and you haven't had issues, yet. They are male and female, so that won't get you into SSA. But there are other specific issues that can be problematic now, or down the line.

It isn't all aggression. There is separation issues. They could be find together, but remove one from the other, to board them, or for training, or because one needs to undergo a surgery, whatever, and one or both of them can have serious difficulties. You might find that training them is more difficult because they or so focused on their mate, that they have trouble focusing on you.

Oftentimes I will leave older pups with a bitch, or just together. And that will work with bitches for 15 -18 months, and then I will notice that one of them is more bullying and the other much more submissive. They will need to be separated, or they will not reach their potential. In fact, they probably should have been separated before then.

I have raised several litter mates. And even some of them went to separate homes at 3 years or so, without too much trouble. It depends on the individual dogs, not so much what the owners do or do not do.

 

How would it be if you raise a male pup with his mother? Can this result in the same problems as raising two litter mates?

 

Carly and Russ are mother and son. I took Russ to work with me every day until he was about a year old, so they were separated quite a bit. I also had Sage. Never had a problem until he was somewhere between 1 and 2, when he decided he was in charge, and not Carly. He’s a very pushy dog. We had a few scuffles, but Carly apparently decided it wasn’t worth her while to fight with him. It’s been peaceful ever since. She’ll be 8 in Jan, and he’ll be 5 in Feb. Throwing Scarlet in the mix has been pretty easy. I don’t know why Carly likes her, but she does. Scarlet is 15 months old.

 

Why are littermates a bad idea?

Well, because most people, it seems cannot even manage one pup.

And one pup is less than half the work of two puppies, from house training on up. For example, potty training: You get a good schedule and stick with it. Shut water off at 7pm, take the puppy to potty that last time at 11 pm, and then sleep until 5:30am if you are lucky. The minute you get up, you grab the puppy and rush to the door to let him out to potty. Somewhere, somehow, that bladder filled up. ok. With one puppy it isn't that hard, but snagging two puppies up to go potty? If you just let them out, betcha one of them is going to squat before you get to the door, or carreen through the house with the other puppy following in hot pursuit. Once you manage to get them out without pottying, they are rushing around with each other, maybe piddling some, maybe pooping (and trying to eat it) and maybe to busy with the other puppy. Drive you nuts. So the next day you leave on in the kennel and take the other out until it potties, good, go back in and the other pottied in its crate. Clean that up, the two of them managed to flip over the aquarium and kill your angel fish, the devils.

And that is just potty training. Much harder to do two at once. Any accident is an invitation to pee here.

And folks just can't seem to get one animal under control anymore. My BIL (yeah the one that threatened to kill every dog in my kennel), well, his kids are not 6 and 7. Six and a half years ago when Gwen was born, Andrea spent a lot of time with my folks and they had Cujo at that time, since Gwen was quite premature and spent months in the hospital. Larry was always a little afraid of Cujo. Cujo was an experienced baby-dog and was excellent with Andrea. In fact, Larry was a little impressed at how good the dog was with her.

But today, he is praising labradors as a great family dogs and GSDs as ultra-protective, and so on.

Whatever. I told him Elena could go into all my kennels and feed the dogs without my being out there. And he expects my dogs to eat him. But not labs. Labs aren't going to bite anyone.

I told him with all the bad breeding, labs are racking up more bites. And from a bird dog that is doubly troublesome.

People who are regularly around people with GSDs for 20+ years, and still can't get over their fear and prejudice of the breed, because of all the dogs owned by people who shouldn't own a critter. Well, how do we fight their perception with the general public? And we should be happy with the general public to raise two at the same time? Are you mad?

People who have the experience with dogs to raise two at the same time, well, they are not here asking about raising a pair of pups, they are out doing it. People who are worried about how they will manage it, welll they aren't asking advice in advance.

 

I agree, if you have to ask "can it it be done" you probably shouldn't.

 

I remember when my breeders wanted me to take the puppy that would become Sage. Carly was just 4 months older. I knew the potential for SS aggression, having dealt with it in Dobes before, and knew that 2 puppies together is 4 times the work. But I’m able to take a dog to work, and knew I could handle 2 puppies. I never had trouble with those two. I don’t think the average pet owner needs to tackle it with GSDs. I have grooming customers with litter mates, but they are shih tzus and maltese. That’s a different ballgame.