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Just like people have opinions with limited exposure to what their opinion is about, their are many breeders( reputable and not reputable ) that have limited experience with working with this breed in any capacity that would enable them to realize or recognize good nerve. I think the Point of the amount of shyness/inappropriate aggression in the breed today is simply startling. And though the aggression issues often have inappropriate handling along with weak nerves, the extreme shyness is almost totally weak nerves. And most of these dogs weren't abused like the apologist like to lament....cause if a good nerved dog was raised the same way the dog would adjust and wouldn't have the issues. There are plenty of reasons for the deterioration of nerve in this breed....from breeder to owners....but to think this is not in rampant in the breed today is either naïveté or just plain stubbornness in accepting....but folks the breed is in trouble,IMO!
 
So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD.
Agree! That is why Schutzhund was brought in as a test for the dogs - originally, even the BH had the gunfire test - any dog reacting negatively to the gun shots were failed.

But AKC actively discouraged any bite training in dogs - they did not understand (and many people do not understand) that a solid balanced dog with bite training does not go around randomly attacking the elderly and eating young people, any more than a Martial Arts expert, who has been in training since childhood would go around beating people up just because they can.

Many, many, MANY of us on this board have dogs that show real strength and fight in protection training, but are fully sweet, easy-going, friendly dogs in all sorts of public situations.

It's like others have said - people have NO idea what "Good Temperament" in a GSD means - and it means something different for a GSD than a hunting breed, or a guardian breed, or a toy breed. I've seen breeder websites where they breed for "unique and unusual" colors claim that temperament is their #1 priority, but then have a write up about one of their breeding females about how wonderful she is, but is shy and fearful of strangers (which they confuse with aloofness), but is extremely protective and loyal (which means that the dog is fear aggressive, is in a constant mode of anxiety and barks at everything that moves because the poor thing is scared out of her mind, and the loyalty is the dog being to afraid to move more than three feet away from the security of their owner).

And this is one of their breeding dogs - touted for good temperament. Makes you really scratch your head.

I often link this article as one of my favorites about temperament. In my opinion, it should be required reading for every GSD owner, future owner, wanna-be owners, and should be memorized and recited daily by GSD breeders:
Elem. of Temperament
 
I think breeders AND buyers are to blame and it will be an ongoing issue for all the reasons stated here. I encounter many people (and I live in a rural area) who have no idea about dog ownership in general (most are dog owners). The best we can do is educate at every opportunity. I had one co-worker planning to get a rottie. I gave her books and advice, they got the dog, and eventually put it down after it had bitten multiple people. Their intentions were good, but people just don't know what they're seeing or looking for when they decide they want a dog. I tell people to get a breed calendar, and they can see what they think they want every day. Mostly it's a certain look or image they want.
Sue
 
So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD.
Rules are pretty clear, judges are the problem. There is no worst blind than the one who doesn't want to see.
 
if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
their owners have bad training and socializing skills.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think that is true. There are a lot more dogs out there from pet-breeders who are breeding weak genetics that will not improve despite the effort of their owners.
 
Emoore, clam down. i'm always on your side. you don't
have to call me a liar or knock me down but if you
did knock me down depending on my dogs reaction
i could start a thread titled "will my dog protect me" or "my dog
didn't protect me when Emoore called me a liar and
knocked me down". :laugh:

what makes you think nerves/temperamant isn't #1 on a
breeders list? i think most of the problems people encounter
with their dogs is due to a lack of proper training, proper
socializing and a lack of proper care in general when raising
a dog.
#1 on the list of any breeder worth the name? Sure. #1 on the list of the newspaper/craigslist/flea market breeder? Hardly.

>>>> I own a newspaper dog and if you say I haven't trained, socialized, and cared for him properly throughout his 10+ years I'll call you a liar to your face and knock you down. <<<<

Same with xxMyRoxyxx and her Rocky. Same with my friend Katie and her newspaper pup Leo. Same with my brother-in-law and his dog, and the people I've met in puppy class and obedience classes, getting some of the best instruction available in the metroplex about how to overcome their GSD's nerve and temperament issues. If these people-- conscientious owners who care enough about their dogs to buy books and join forums and pay for classes and hire trainers-- can't raise a dog who isn't afraid of its own shadow, there's something wrong with the genes. You shouldn't need a Ph.D in Dog to raise a stable animal.
 
Agree! That is why Schutzhund was brought in as a test for the dogs - originally, even the BH had the gunfire test - any dog reacting negatively to the gun shots were failed.

But AKC actively discouraged any bite training in dogs - they did not understand (and many people do not understand) that a solid balanced dog with bite training does not go around randomly attacking the elderly and eating young people, any more than a Martial Arts expert, who has been in training since childhood would go around beating people up just because they can.

Many, many, MANY of us on this board have dogs that show real strength and fight in protection training, but are fully sweet, easy-going, friendly dogs in all sorts of public situations.

It's like others have said - people have NO idea what "Good Temperament" in a GSD means - and it means something different for a GSD than a hunting breed, or a guardian breed, or a toy breed. I've seen breeder websites where they breed for "unique and unusual" colors claim that temperament is their #1 priority, but then have a write up about one of their breeding females about how wonderful she is, but is shy and fearful of strangers (which they confuse with aloofness), but is extremely protective and loyal (which means that the dog is fear aggressive, is in a constant mode of anxiety and barks at everything that moves because the poor thing is scared out of her mind, and the loyalty is the dog being to afraid to move more than three feet away from the security of their owner).

And this is one of their breeding dogs - touted for good temperament. Makes you really scratch your head.

I often link this article as one of my favorites about temperament. In my opinion, it should be required reading for every GSD owner, future owner, wanna-be owners, and should be memorized and recited daily by GSD breeders:
Elem. of Temperament
Beautiful post -- absolutely agree!
 
if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
their owners have bad training and socializing skills.

So you think that people of 20-30 or more years ago were better at socializing and training than they are today? Back when we used choke collars and non-positive corrections?
 
if a dog has bad genetics you're in for a problem. i don't
think the majority of dogs have bad genetics. i think
their owners have bad training and socializing skills.
On what do you base this opinion?

Sometimes you have dogs with bad genetics and bad owners. That is a powder keg.

Sometimes you have dogs with good genetics and bad owners. These dogs are, surprisingly, pretty well-adjusted and stable, despite bad training and socialization.

Sometimes you have dogs with bad genetics and good owners. These folks know how to train, socialize, and manage the dog effectively so that the problems (fearfulness, weak nerve, aggression, etc) are minimized and the dog's good qualities are emphasized. In most cases the dog becomes managable.

Core, genetic good temperament is very difficult to ruin. Hence abused dogs that come to you with wagging tail and lick your hands. Core weak temperament is challenging to improve, but can be done with savvy ownership. Most of the dogs that I see with temperament problems, are due to genetic temperament flaws which are unwittingly exacerbated by the owner--the nervous, fearful dog is coddled, the aggressive dog is petted "to calm him down", etc. I don't think it's possible to change genetics, but much can be affected by environment.
 
"So maybe these dogs don't belong in the ring? If they can't compete or be shown, they won't be bought and the breeder will have to think about what they are breeding. Maybe a dog that acts like this should be disqualified and maybe the rules should be a little more clear on what acceptable behavior is for a GSD"

Very good start -- so what do you think of this sample then JELLO Wienerau , who was run off the field , failed to engage the helper , running circles around him , and when he got a low placement (Peter Arth???) an SV judge was disappointed . The dog still got a V-4 ---
People from the working camp said the dog had a pretty appropriate name whether prounced jello or yello (j=y)
Hein Konigsbruch , sire of Canto , who only had a "present" fighting instinct and low ability/desire to work .
 
So you think that people of 20-30 or more years ago were better at socializing and training than they are today?
In one respect, yes I do. Simply because the world was a different place. Look at all the feral dogs in third world cities living on top of one another. Take a look at all our homeless people, with their dogs sitting calmly beside them. Before there were leash laws the dogs who had the opportunity to roam around had better nerves because of it. But most people here aren't old enough to remember when you'd just open the kitchen door and let your dog out into your unfenced yard, that's going waaaaay back, lol!
 
In one respect, yes I do. Simply because the world was a different place. Look at all the feral dogs in third world cities living on top of one another. Take a look at all our homeless people, with their dogs sitting calmly beside them. Before there were leash laws the dogs who had the opportunity to roam around had better nerves because of it. But most people here aren't old enough to remember when you'd just open the kitchen door and let your dog out into your unfenced yard, that's going waaaaay back, lol!
Where I live people still do. I don't think it leads to a more socialized dog, just more dogs hit by cars and shot by other neighbors. (Then again I guess that does take them out of the gene pool pretty fast if they tick off the neighbors, only the friendly well behaved smart car savy ones survive). You may be on to something here. ;)
 
I dont think that breeders not breeding for nerves is the problem, its the BYB's who are mass producing puppies and the people who are buying them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that many of those 20 something threads mentioned are about dogs who came from "less than desirable" places.
I think that John Q Public still thinks that looking in the classified section of the newspaper is the place to buy a dog. I see it all the time. A coworker did this, the area code was Missouri, the woman wanted cash and met her in a McDonald's parking lot with 4 crates of puppies in the back of her car.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
Where I live people still do. I don't think it leads to a more socialized dog, just more dogs hit by cars and shot by other neighbors. (Then again I guess that does take them out of the gene pool pretty fast if they tick off the neighbors, only the friendly well behaved smart car savy ones survive). You may be on to something here. ;)
When I grew up dogs roamed. It wasn't about socialization.
It was survival of the most fit. So the weaker dogs ran away or were hit by cars etc...
The remaining dogs were usually very sound.

You cannot fix weak genetics but as Freestep said you can manage some of them.

A lot to of people do not have the time or knowledge to do this.

If they can't handle their dog then we all know where the dogs wind up.

I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.
 
I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.
I know, it's sad. Another thing that's sad is when people think they're getting a sound dog because they're going to a breeder. I know someone who had to put her GSD down at 2 because he bit her neighbor in the throat. Now we can speculate all day long on how and why this tragedy happened, but it doesn't change the fact that the owner thought she was buying from a good source and she was heartbroken. But this is a local breeder proud of her black GSDs, I was told.

I always find these threads confusing because I have a hard time calling everyone who mates a male with a female a 'breeder'. Producing offspring doesn't make a breeder, in my eyes.
 
I feel for these dog with weak nerve and temperament because it's not their fault.
Yep, you and a whole lot of other people who are now encouraged, and in many cases shamed, into adopting these kinds of dogs. Breeders are now considered "evil" in the eyes of many. We have a rather huge Animal Rights movement in this country. If I thought they knew anything about animals, I might give them credit for managing a rather clever plot to end pet ownership by encouraging people to adopt the ones who really are not capable of being "pets".

As for the rest of what is said here...... First of all, no "savvy dog trainer" would be "petting an aggressive dog to calm it down". Second, it was inferred that all dogs who have good genetics are well behaved, no matter who is handling him. I am sorry but as a dog trainer for the last ...well, lifetime , I can assure you, people can make a huge mess of very good dogs.
People seem to be leaving out the natural protective instinct the GSD was intended to possess. THIS is where so many people screw things up and BADLY. It is also something huge numbers of people, including SchH trainers, and many people on this board, have no idea about. They immediately label a protective dog, "fear aggressive" or "defensive". Or, they do what so many people here just did with their idea of what a description " really means". This kind of cynical thinking and ignorance is having a major impact on the breed.

I think people nowadays are more nervous, neurotic and unqualified to handle protective breeds. They think showing a dog a cookie and asking him stare at it, is the solution to any of the problems they encounter. They also think they can behave any way they want and the dog should not be affected. This is an intuitive breed that feels what we feel. To think they can't, is ignorance about the breed and even dogs in general. The point about how dogs were kept years ago plays into this. People didn't freak out about every little thing and were not trying to ban breeds right and left. We didn't have a media and politicians who had figured out that scaring the bejesus out of people, makes them easy to control.

When we train protection here, the handler is instructed to play the role just as much as the bad guy does. That means they alert their dog to a problem, ( the bad guy), with how they behave and handle their dog. I can't tell you how MANY people I watch who do the same thing, ( without realizing it of course), with their GSD in public settings. They tell their dog "something is wrong" with their nervous, fearful behavior and the "good dogs" will start looking for ways to help the handler. The nervous dogs will react as well but there is simply a huge difference in the behavior of both kinds of dogs. It is quite clear to anyone who knows DOGS ...and that is the problem. People know more about computers than they do animals and when they decide to get a dog, most of the time, what they really want, is a machine. Also, we now have herds of unqualified "behaviorlists ", who really have NO idea about protective breeds. They rely on a vocabulary of terms to label dogs without much, if any, real experience with those same kinds of dogs. What they are doing, is simply a huge disservice to the people and the dogs. We also have Vets who will not hesitate to put a dog on Prozac as a solution to what is many times, behaviors created by the handler.


The dogs without socialization are many times better off because of one simple fact. No training is better than bad training. As a general rule, people have NO idea how to provide direction and how to introduce their young dogs to new places and situations. They leave it up to the dog to decide how to deal with people, (who are many times uncomfortable and look like they are), and they give no direction to those same people who do things that are simply inappropriate.
The breed needs a level of suspicion and certainly social aggression. These dogs do require handlers who will take the time to understand them and most of all, are people who handle them in a confident manner. I have owned many of these kinds of dogs . They have never bitten anyone but they know I don't need their help. If I do, I will ask for it and I have no doubt they will protect me. I am very clear and I am not there confusing them with my behavior, when people who mean no harm are in the vicinity. Also, I can assure you, the Germans realized that GSDs needed a certain kind of handler. I have not known one who would say what is being said here. I am talking about the ones I met years ago, the ones who REALLY understood dogs and training and the GSD.

Last, you cannot change a dog's basic temperament with "savvy training". It will always show thru but I have seen dogs simply transform completely, once I helped the people get a grip on themselves. I used to tell myself I was a dog trainer but really, most of what I do is counseling and training people about behavior....theirs.
 
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