I always understood a hard dog to be one who is solid - nervewise, and you could give a strong correction to and they would recover right away. Dubya was hard. I had been working with him to stop jumping up on me (bad habit I allowed), but I was going to have a surgery on my hand and did not want to get it injured. Well after the surgery the first thing he did was jump right up on that bad wrist with his horrible toenails. I did not even think, in a fluid motion, I grabbed 80 pounds of dog by his neck and back and and swung him up and into the fencing while yelling.

I let him down and he looked at me, like, Oh yeah, you didn't want me to do that, ok. If I did that to one of my girls they would hide in their dog house and not even look at me.

The dog was not aggressive - certainly not handler aggressive, it was just a dog you could hit over the head with a 2 by 4 and he would be like, cool, lets do that again. (No, never did that.)

It is something not easy to explain.

Frodo was independent and dominant, but not hard. If you accidently stepped on his foot he would cry like a baby. He was really more of a fearful dog.

Rushie was softer, but not bad character. He was not fearful, just very handler sensitive -- a slight word was all that was ever necessary in training him -- very compliant. I do not remember ever giving him a stiff correction because it was NEVER necessary so I do not know how well he would recover.

 

Sounds like a cesspool of a forum.

a dog that has strong nerves, drive, sound aggression, is resilient and doesn't feel pain. Even if you accidently mis-treat the dog, the dog won't be mad at you.

I think your/your dad's definition is spot on. Although "doesn't feel pain" --do you mean, doesn't feel pain when in drive or is always rather blithe to pain?

 

a hard dog has emotional integrity.

they are stalwart .

they are forgiving . they are resilient .

there is a quiet , stately prescence about them -- sizing up a situation , and confident , competent to handle it appropriately

they have mental stamina . will work through harsh and difficult situations , no rest till the job is finished , even overiding personal needs (tired , wet, too hot, thirsty)

they are reliable , you can count on them.

committed

the thresholds are high -- will engage when necessary and will stay in the fight even when the pressure and fight increases in intensity.

a hard dog does not have to be overtly aggressive

it has nothing to do with being handler aggressive

good start --

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

a hard dog has emotional integrity.

they are stalwart .

they are forgiving . they are resilient .

there is a quiet , stately prescence about them -- sizing up a situation , and confident , competent to handle it appropriately

they have mental stamina . will work through harsh and difficult situations , no rest till the job is finished , even overiding personal needs (tired , wet, too hot, thirsty)

Heh. Some people call that "stubbornness"... Carmen, would you say that there is a difference between "hard" and "stubborn", or is it two different ways of looking at the same thing?

 

Yikes, was it PDB? Haven't even lurked there in about a year.

I hope this doesn't completely take the thread off track but is a "hard dog" the same thing as when people say a "real dog" ?
I will have to re read this thread... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/146415-sport-vs-real-dog.html

 

IMO, no. A dog can be real without hardness. And a dog can be sporty WITH hardness.

But either way, the dog is going to be better/stronger at what he is if he has hardness.

And a real dog without hardness often ends up acting/reacting in fear. And a sport dog with hardness may end up doing less well bc he senses that the fight is not serious therefore is it really worth his time? --because he can handle more "fight" than he is getting in the sport training.

 

Carmen,

I would say your definition encompasses more than just hardness--that a dog can be hard but not have all of those traits.

 

Mrs K - I personally think your input is invaluable about these things - ESPECIALLY as you have that wonderful resource of your father!!!!! there have been a few v Barenfang dogs I admired tremendously (yes, I admit, on paper and photo! LOL) Wotan and Pilot come to mind....I desparately wanted a Wotan x Romy alten Wingertshaus puppy....but there were none available when I contacted them (years ago!!)....

Your fathers explanation is exactly what I think of as a 'hard' dog - both my Xito and Ufo dogs show hardness in this way! with no handler aggression ......

Stay here and talk to us and share your father's wisdom and knowledge - I, for one!, greatly appreciate it!

Lee

 

uhm, just guessing here, but sounds like the peddb forum..?

Like the thoughts on hardness...and have seen old school ways before there was a new school too. But like someone mentioned, you may never know how hard a dog might be if ya never go there.

Trust your gut, and your Dad,K

 

I always thought hardness in a dog was the ability to deal with and recover from a correction/opposition?

 

Is it possible that the term has changed over the years and that to many old-timers or people who have learned from old-timers a hard dog is a specific type of dog while to the newer generations it describes more of a trait?

 

I probably simplify definitions, but I have always thought of hardness as a mental and physical toughness.

 

of course there is a difference between hard and stubborn .

A hard dog is those things that I have said AND those things that Ms Blackthorn gsd said .

A hard dog can have great desire and joy to work -- Bernd Lierberg
A stubborn dog can be hard , but can be really pig headed , hard to get to comply - Umsa Bungalow comes to mind as an example.

Carmen

 

Are you familiar with Pike von der Schafbachsmuehle an Basko vom Flughafenrand?
Irus vom Foetzbachtal and Caro vom Allerswald?

 

I think of it as a mental and physical resiliency to unpleasant experiences.

 

why would I not be --- of course.

 

Mrs. K, it sounds to me like you were the victim of an ambush listener. This is a person who is not listening to you with an open mind, they are not seeking to learn anything from what you are saying. They are simply trying to find fault in what you are saying so that they can embarrass you or call you out on it. I am very sorry that you went through that experience.

*Don't let people like that chase you off of forums. Utilize the Block this Person option.

 

I think I know which forum Mrs. K was posting on, not the PDB but WDF? Too bad there is so much sniping and not enough openminded on the forums.

Are you familiar with Pike von der Schafbachsmuehle an Basko vom Flughafenrand?
Irus vom Foetzbachtal and Caro vom Allerswald?

My Karlo was named after Pikes daddy. I've watched this impressive routine several times, my Karlo's Great grandfather

 

I think I know which forum Mrs. K was posting on, not the PDB but WDF? Too bad there is so much sniping and not enough openminded on the forums.

My Karlo was named after Pikes daddy. I've watched this impressive routine several times, my Karlo's Great grandfather Pike von der Schafbachmuhle - Protection - YouTube

Karlo has Basko in the Pedigree, he was one of the most intense dogs out there. Went through many different hands and barely anyone could handle him. He is referred to as "Killer" because of that. Also, was quite a few don't notice is that there is actually incest in that line via Blanka vom Koerbelbach. Blankas parents are Caro vom Allerswald and Friga vom Allerswald. Both dogs mother is Quicke vom Itztal.

 

Brings up another point, is a hard dog forgiving or is it just not that big of a deal to begin with?

 

Good point. I'd say it's overlapping each other. It's not that big of a deal, therefor it's forgiven.

Great topic so far, by the way

 

Physically and mentally tough is my definition of a hard dog...... So I guess so.

 

I do not know that dogs forgive, that seems like a really complex concept, but they come back to us perhaps are driven back to us, interesting. I think maybe I will start a thread about trust and forgiveness from a hard dog, soft dog stand point.

 

Have you ever seen that movies with Sandra Bullock that dog reminds me of the kids she took in, Big and Gentle quite and shy you can hurt him all you want and he would keep coming back for aproval but don't hurt who protects him and who he love's AND THE MOVIE WATER BOY

 

This thread is 11 years old and the person you quoted is no longer a member.