Truly amazing. No insight other than some of those are mals, malx and other mixes.
@David Winners might have some insight…

 

Not sure what you are asking. What structure do you think is lost?

 

Thanks for sharing this. I know Chris. He's a great human, handler and advocate.

I'll just say that the dogs have evolved along with the needs of the military. The only goal is to be successful, saving lives and accomplishing the mission.

Few civilians get to know or experience these dogs. They are bred for a purpose and they are driven to that work from birth.

I'm not sure how to say this in a way that doesn't sound condescending. The military dogs of today are more capable than those of the earlier eras. I have great respect for those that paved the way for the modern military. Those dogs of lore didn't do what modern dogs do.

There was a moment in time when the decision was made to make dogs a vital part of infantry and special operations. A moment when the government decided to spend money and find the right people to do the job of training and implementing dogs into dismounted operations. That moment is when the military dog really evolved.

The dogs of WWII, Korea and Viet Nam were mostly dogs that were donated. They were dogs being dogs. The military dogs of today are purpose built and bred with very specific traits in mind. You can't just take any random GSD and rappel out of a helo to immediately go into a search pattern for explosives while the bird is talking off.

The looks of the military dog are way WAY down the list of what is important. The Rin Tin Tin looking dogs of yesteryear are non existent today in the military. The few remaining GSDs are definitely of a type. They are Czech/DDR dogs primarily from Holland. Most military dogs are Mals, which is an entirely different subject.

 

Thanks for sharing this. I know Chris. He's a great human, handler and advocate.

I'll just say that the dogs have evolved along with the needs of the military. The only goal is to be successful, saving lives and accomplishing the mission.

Few civilians get to know or experience these dogs. They are bred for a purpose and they are driven to that work from birth.

I'm not sure how to say this in a way that doesn't sound condescending. The military dogs of today are more capable than those of the earlier eras. I have great respect for those that paved the way for the modern military. Those dogs of lore didn't do what modern dogs do.

There was a moment in time when the decision was made to make dogs a vital part of infantry and special operations. A moment when the government decided to spend money and find the right people to do the job of training and implementing dogs into dismounted operations. That moment is when the military dog really evolved.

The dogs of WWII, Korea and Viet Nam were mostly dogs that were donated. They were dogs being dogs. The military dogs of today are purpose built and bred with very specific traits in mind. You can't just take any random GSD and rappel out of a helo to immediately go into a search pattern for explosives while the bird is talking off.

The looks of the military dog are way WAY down the list of what is important. The Rin Tin Tin looking dogs of yesteryear are non existent today in the military. The few remaining GSDs are definitely of a type. They are Czech/DDR dogs primarily from Holland. Most military dogs are Mals, which is an entirely different subject.

View attachment 602808

I think with the rare knowledge and experience David Winners has over most of the rest of us, he articulated his comments perfectly. Well said David It's great to know these dogs have evolved.

 

why is it so rare to see German Shepherds with this structure... How did we lose this?

It is not rare. And we didn't lose it, at least not in the working lines.

Multiple current working line German Shepherds were shown in this video. I would suggest you go to working dog clubs and learn. There are many SV conformation shows, that will have both SL and WL that you can attend along with club training to see the different drives and temperaments.


Is this you? if so, I don't see a SL or a WL in this dog. I see a possible mishmash of lines and a mixed breed litter and since you are asking breeding and conformation questions - I would strongly urge you to find a mentor to work with personally and start working the dogs as they should be.

 

I don't think we've lost anything. I just really liked the video.

 

Not sure what you are asking. What structure do you think is lost?

Good top line

It is not rare. And we didn't lose it, at least not in the working lines.

Multiple current working line German Shepherds were shown in this video. I would suggest you go to working dog clubs and learn. There are many SV conformation shows, that will have both SL and WL that you can attend along with club training to see the different drives and temperaments.


Is this you? if so, I don't see a SL or a WL in this dog. I see a possible mishmash of lines and a mixed breed litter and since you are asking breeding and conformation questions - I would strongly urge you to find a mentor to work with personally and start working the dogs as they should be.

Thank you …. Wow wow wow there … mixed breed litter? You mean …. Hybrid! F1 “Staffy Bull Shepherd”

The perfect working dog. Titles coming soon

 

Good top line




Thank you …. Wow wow wow there … mixed breed litter? You mean …. Hybrid! F1 “Staffy Bull Shepherd”

The perfect working dog. Titles coming soon

What is you’re involvement and exposure to the breed?

 

What jobs are they bred to do? Herding,detection, military, or.....

 

Based on the roles they’re in; service dog work mostly but a more agile sporting dog was in mind at conception. Think of the German Shepherd as like an AK-47, the Staffy Bull Shepherd is like an AK-107 … it’s lighter, it’s faster. I have 1 from the litter that I am working myself and I am constantly impressed

What is you’re involvement and exposure to the breed?

Longtime enthusiast. Historian. Trainer

 

Great, just what we don't need more designer hybrids.

 

Mixed breed...mutts. I refuse to call them "hybrid" and legitimize them, even in sarcasm. A shepherd and a bully breed...what a disaster.

 

How can a GSD Pitt mix be a service dog? Its not in the mixed DNA.

 

Well.... in my opinion the temperments of both breeds are are such polar opposites that it would take many generations to create a reliably stable dog.I do have experience with both.I don't know enough about conformation to venture a guess about that ending up as good thing.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, it does appear that this thread has went a bit off of the path from it’s original intention. I appreciate the attention to this matter, as this project underscores the entire theme for my 2023 but I do not feel personalizing this discussion to my experiences would be the most beneficial discussion for the forum or the German Shepherd breed, which I care for deeply … and recognize it’s potential to being a worthy contributor to the foundation of the dog breeds of the future


It should also be clarified that I have AKC showline and Sieger lines in mind

Well.... in my opinion the temperments of both breeds are are such polar opposites that it would take many generations to create a reliably stable dog.I do have experience with both.I don't know enough about conformation to venture a guess about that ending up as good thing.

You are 100 percent right. They may look identical due to uniformity in their coats but there are varying combinations of traits inherited for each dog and it requires a discerning eye to recognize where they differ

if a line were created for each resulting pup they would only differ slightly

but this is not my intention. This was a 1 of 1 breeding and there will be no follow-ups to preserve any of the resulting lines

I have to laugh at this wanting to produce a "more agile & lighter & faster" dog. You clearly don't have experience with a nice smaller working line GSD. I have an 11 month old 63lb male GSD that is not going to get a lot bigger & he is crazy agile, super fast pocket rocket & he's not even mature yet. God help me if he gets even faster as he already hits like he weighs 20lbs more & he's so quick & intense if he pulls a tug the right way he leaves you seeing stars like some cartoon character.

There is nothing to gain from mixing these two breeds.

These dogs can move in a way that German Shepherds can not. They would be a worthy competitor to the Malinois in police work roles

but back to the subject

what I see in this video aopear to be the German Shepherds of their time and they differ greatly from what we have today, as depicted by annual Siegers and Best of Breed winners

 

I can't anymore....I'm calling Troll.

So you bred GSD to a pit, called it an F1 Hybrid...and you are concerned about the top line of a German Shepherd. So many other priorities there...

Then you post a video showing CURRENT working line dogs and make this statement

"what I see in this video aopear to be the German Shepherds of their time and they differ greatly from what we have today, as depicted by annual Siegers and Best of Breed winners"

You have zero knowledge of this breed. Zero. You don't even know what you are looking at in the video you posted. If you did, you would already have the answer to this thread and you would know you can't compare working line dogs to "annual Siegers and Best of Breed winners" which are WGSL and ASL.

 

I can't anymore....I'm calling Troll.

So you bred GSD to a pit, called it an F1 Hybrid...and you are concerned about the top line of a German Shepherd. So many other priorities there...

Then you post a video showing CURRENT working line dogs and make this statement

"what I see in this video aopear to be the German Shepherds of their time and they differ greatly from what we have today, as depicted by annual Siegers and Best of Breed winners"

You have zero knowledge of this breed. Zero. You don't even know what you are looking at in the video you posted. If you did, you would already have the answer to this thread and you would know you can't compare working line dogs to "annual Siegers and Best of Breed winners" which are WGSL and ASL.

Not a pit. A Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and not just any German Shepherd. This was a meticulously crafted breeding - but not the subject of this thread and I didn’t post that video of my dogs - I am not here to discuss my dogs


Rather; It was my intention to discuss the dogs in the video that I posted. A lot of the dogs in the video do not look like working line dogs that I see today
As we keep in mind, I didn’t post the video from my YouTube video (so it wasn’t my intention to bring my dogs into this) I also did not post this thread proclaiming my knowledge but simply asking a question

Whether I have knowledge on the breed or not is aside the point, I obviously have interest in the breed or I wouldn’t be here - and it is much more likely that my years of interest in the breed have led to the acquisition of some knowledge

 

No knowledge on breed he says..

Do I have to actively be breeding German Shepherds to have an interest in the breed?

 

You may have interest in the breed, but your ignorance of the breed is obvious. Many of the dogs in the video you started this thread with are either not GSDs (Belgian Malinios and Dutch Shepherds are not GSDs) or GSDs from a time before the working and showline split. You talk exclusively about showline dogs when you do actually talk about GSDs.

You are either a troll or have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the working line side of the breed. Every new post I read reveals a new level of ignorance.

 

GSDs from a time before the working and showline split.

I believe centering my response to this portion of your post is the best way to keep this discussion on track

When did this happen and what dogs were instrumental in the split at this point in time?

 

I could answer your question, but you claim to be a scholar of the breed so indulge me, and tell me which dogs you believe were instrumental to the foundation of each of the current established lines. I'll give you a hint it's none of the dogs you have named in any of your previous posts.

 

OP you shouldn't have brought in the mixed breeding, never goes well here, we're highly protective of the perfect breed, German Shepherds.

Everything you need to see is here:

 

This thread is loaded with so much information covering breeding, history & a whole lot more. I need to read it again myself & I know I've read at least 2x already. It's long, but a wealth of info.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/threads/iceberg-breeders.163886/#post-2206890

 

@KaymanPup that's the one I was going to suggest as I was getting caught up on this thread. You beat me to it!
@StarDawg Kennels pick through some of David Winners threads about choosing dogs, training handlers and dogs while he was deployed.

 

OP's wording and formulation seems to have been assisted by AI.

 

wolfy dog is clever . . .

 

Thread is getting ridiculous.................the worst type of discussion is trying to teach someone something that they believe they already know....but are obviously clueless and they refute those with knowledge and keep strongly insisting on how much they know - using examples that show the opposite......a dozen people can tell them they are wrong - but they insist on their superior knowledge based on reading a couple of books.......very OLD books .

 

So how about posting the pedigree of this "not just any German Shepherd" . I'd love to see it.

Also you say these pups "would be a worthy competitor to the Malinois in police work roles" what makes you say this? Is the sire a working police K9? Is the mother a working K9? Have you trained a working dog? Would you even know what traits to look for in order for a dog to even be considered for such a role?

 

Working in rescue at the moment....I see GSD and bully mixes so frequently, it's saddening to see someone so proudly aiding to our problem....

Of course we went off topic, the educated people of this site don't support such unethical breeding practices and WILL call you out for it. AND trying to say these dogs would be good SD canidates? Jeez.

 

It seems like I have entered an echo chamber and this is pick on the new guy day

I’d be happy to discuss all of this further with you but this thread may not be the appropriate venue. Shall we get back on subject or should we just delete or close this thread up?

 

You took a great video and used it to disrespect the entire breed.

 

You have touched on something some of us feel strongly about and not our first rodeo on topics like this. Far too often these ideas are Buzz Words for effect. its not so much "pick on the new guy".