[pupresq]

That makes more sense. Leaving her kenneled separately when you can't supervise her is a good idea.

Even so, I don't know that your experience with your Rottie may not be the norm - also, a lot of Schutzhund dogs love to play with other dogs during their down time and it doesn't make them not as good working dogs.

I have fostered and owned a lot of dogs and I have seen a few who preferred the company of other dogs to people, given the choice, but the majority of the dogs and 100% of the Shepherds are almost ridiculously bonded to the people, in spite of having loads of playtime with other dogs from day one. The more I work with them individually, the more true that is, even being with other dogs during "down time."

 

[Liesje]

Craig, I think you are doing a good job thinking all of this through. However, I think the key to making sure the pup is more interested in you than the other dogs is to make yourself the most interesting thing, not try to make the other things less interesting, if that makes sense. Judging by your posts and what you have planned for the pup, this will not be difficult for you.

Logistically, I think it would be easiest to keep the pup indoors with you when you are around, keep it confined to certain rooms or tethered so you can closely monitor it, sometimes even crate it to help with crate training and house-training, then use the dog run when you are gone, but not worry so much about keeping the pup away from other dogs. It's important for the pup to socialize with other dogs, and any current resident dogs can play an important role in showing the pup "the ropes" and making sure correct dog behavior is adhered to. Sometimes dogs are better at correcting each other than we are. If you wait until a year to let the new dog form a relationship with the current dogs, there could be problems. Of course at first you will need to monitor their interactions and keep them separate when you are out, but I think you might get tired keeping the dogs when dogs are naturally pack animals and enjoy being part of a pack. You can easily establish yourself as the leader and the center of the dog's world through training, games, and controlling the mental and physical exercise.

The statement you make about your parents gives some insight. You say they usually let the dogs have the run of the house. This could be why the dogs seem to bond more closely to each other than to the humans. Dogs like leadership - not physical dominance, but they really are pretty simple creatures and they like when humans find good ways of communicating what we want and reinforcing these behaviors so the dog feels like he's doing a good job. If the dogs are allowed to do as they please, they do not see this as a reason to like humans even more, they have less of a reason to care about the humans.

 

[CAB]

I asked around on some other forums and got one particulary good advice. I was told that the pup should be crated/separated from the other dogs at all times. Once the older dogs get used to her presence and start ignoring the crate and dog run then maybe introduce them carefully. Then occasionally let them interact but this should be supervised and not an every day thing. Once the pup is around 8-10 months I can slowly start getting her used to the other dogs to the point where she can be left alone with them unsupervised.

I will definitly not let the older dogs correct the pup because this will not be a normal well mannered pet. It will, hopefully!, be an intense working dog that thinks it is the alpha in life, under me though. I'm not worried about her manners until she is at least a year and I'll try limit corrections to a bare minimum. I will enforce with my parents that no one other than me correct her or spend time playing with her. Once she gets to 10 months or so then I'll be fine if she interacts more with my parents but until then I'm the centre of her world.

 

[Foo Lyn Roo]

I would think (an I could be terribly wrong here)

That if you present yourself as a the strong alpha
your dog will have a desire to bond with you more
than the other dogs.

Im old fashioned though, I think dogs are members of my family, no matter their job.

 

[big_dog7777]

This is in response to everyone.

The main reason to have the puppy separated from the other dogs is not necessarily to bond with the handler. That is important, but that only happens if you allow a young dog to be with another dog 24/7. The main reason is so that the pup does not get dominated by an older dog (one of the worst things that can happen to a young SchH prospect).

I would suggest that the other dogs interact with your puppy only when you are there, and then you supervise carefully. When you are gone a run is an excellent idea.

The old school notion that a SchH dog should be crated unless working developed in my opinion before dogs were being bred for prey drive. A low drive dog works better when crated prior to working. A dog with sufficient drive does not need to be crated in order to perform in my opinion. I am one that trains in SchH, but for me no point total is worth losing my dogs in everyday life. When I am gone at work my dogs are separated.

If you ask these questions in the Schutzhund section below you will get better answers. You cannot just throw your pup in with the other dogs and get the results you want.

 

[CAB]

Thanks Zeus, I know I can trust your advice. I was told this evening that the dog is never allowed to be unsupervised with the older dogs even once it has matured. I was really hoping that once it got to a year or so and was fine with the other dogs I could just let it have the run of the property with the other dogs whilst I go out. I guess it just can't be???

 

[big_dog7777]

That will depend on the dogs. It can be done. Not every dog can do it, and not every trainer will believe it, but in some cases it can work with the right dogs and the right handler.

 

[Liesje]

Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDThe main reason is so that the pup does not get dominated by an older dog (one of the worst things that can happen to a young SchH prospect).

OK, that makes sense, but what good dog owner (not just SchH people) would allow their other dogs to "dominate" a puppy? I do not allow my dogs to dominate each other, or our cats, or any other dog. Playing is fine, playing rough is fine, giving a little snap or lip curl to say "stop it" or "leave me alone" is fine, but I don't think I'd ever allow one dog to bully another, even if I didn't care to do any type of sport or training.

I don't disagree with dog runs, crating, or separating dogs (the two latter things I do on a daily basis). I'm just trying to understand how that specifically applies to SchH (b/c I am maybe sort of considering looking for a pup in the near future). So far most of the suggestions made in this thread sound like great doggy common sense in general (having a safe place for pup when at work, separating dogs when unsupervised, allowing the new dog to interact with current dogs under supervision, not allowing dogs to bully each other...).

 

[selzer]

I think that when you have one or two dogs, there is not a pack situation. Better leaders who are able to spend a good quantity of their time in the presence of their dogs can maybe have a pack without the dominance going on.

Dominance is a funny thing. It is not always snarling, snapping, fighting, bristeling. In fact, dogs who constantly need to fight to maintain their position are not natural alpha dogs. A dog dominates a new pack member or all the other pack members in subtle little ways that the ordinary owner would never pick up on. If you get a good staredown you are fortunate. Humping can be a dominance thing, but puppies hump each other, one humps then the other humps back. Watching Babsy hump Rushie this past week was a bit of a new one. Here is this light 65# bitch humping away on this huge 82# dog. Normally that was immediately followed by his doing the same to her. I of course allowed all of this because I was facilitating a breeding.

Dogs put forth their dominace by waiting until the other dog is in and then starts eating first -- I have seen this countless times. Also moving in a tight place, the dominant dog steps forth confidently, the less dominant dog waits for the other to pass. The dominant dog walks confidently to the coveted resting spot and if it is occupied, the occupant gets up yawns and moves away. A dominant dog will let the others lick at his mouth, but does not necessarily reciprocate.

These are things you cannot actually correct. But the pup will definitely be dominated by the resident dogs, unless the pup is super dominant already, and the resident dogs tend toward submissiveness. Cujo came to moms and became the pack-lead dog immediately, even though Pip was nearly eleven.

I do not train for schutzhund but my dogs are kept separated when I am not their to supervise, and some pairs are never put together. Five out of my six bitches are dominant bitches and I am concerned that one might try to eliminate the other. Further, if a pack of dogs is running together, they can and often do gang up on one of their number and the results can be very ugly.

No, it is common sense to protect the puppy. And specifically, it makes sense to separate to keep the pup from being dominated as the plans for this dog requires the pup to be very confident and dominant.

I also agree that responses from the schutzhund section may be more helpful.

 

[big_dog7777]

Originally Posted By: selzerThese are things you cannot actually correct. But the pup will definitely be dominated by the resident dogs, unless the pup is super dominant already, and the resident dogs tend toward submissiveness.

Exactly. The main goal you have when raising a SchH prospect is to raise them to think they are the baddest thing on the planet. Then one day when mature enough they learn they are the second baddest.

 

[CAB]

Thanks for the advice. I think depending on how interested the dogs are in one in other will determine whether I will be able to leave them alone when out. At the moment my two current dogs wont really play much in the day unless I initiate it because they are both quite lazy.

Liesje, letting the pup get dominated by the other dog is bad and will mess up its confidence for the future. But letting the other dogs correct it is just as bad as these types of pups should be corrected very seldom and IMO only by you. There are no ropes to be learnt for the new pup as it will be brought up very differently from my other dogs. If it bites you, other people or causes destruction then try and change its attention to its toy but by no means shout and smack it.