I can see Tito having hardness and aggression - 4x to Drigon, thus to Enno Antrefftal and then Sagus, Racker and Grief....all reportedly sources of same positives....

 

I would imagine dogs with lots of Greif zum Lahntal with bring seriousness. Sid/Sindy mix as well lol

 

I believe I have said this before in this thread -- study Alfred Hahn's Busecker Schloss breedings and you will see a deliberate programme to keep GENETICALLY hard dogs.

they have to be rock solid, determined, able to meet challenges and difficulties both by adversary, environment or other conditions (thinking tracking and hunt/search here), and even from a handler.

the active aggression enables the dog to challenge the adversary, not just defend and certainly not engage in a play scenario for the sleeve .

sometimes you see this in the pause when the decoy is still .

all of these and grip are missing from the show and pet bred lines in the effort to make a "friendly" as Cliff said socialite of a dog .

 

I like Alfred's quote of "During the hold and bark in the blind, you can see and hear the soul of the dog". Ironically I talk more people out of buying german shepherds than I do suggesting the breed. I don't believe this breed is for every dog owner nor should it be.

 

as do I . The breed shouldn't change to the the demands of the customer base.
A breeder should be concerned with creating the very best, most correct , breed representative and then make that dog available to the right owner , (which is not determined by cash in pocket).

in another thread there was a call to arms to bring pet breeders on board to fill the gap between supply and demand --

I don't think so.

 

@Espo4442..... I don't question what you say about Max and damline. Actually, I found that the dam line is capable of good aggression. But there are other dogs in the pedigree that factor in. I have had two dogs from Ellute in Grandfather role and neither had good aggression. Excellent nerve, great grips, and great prey but not what I consider active aggression. Actually, I like Max's dam line better than sire line for source of active aggression. I've had granddaughter of Beemoan Bee, another solid dog, but not active aggression. Grief, and Tito were good source, as could be Querry, but when you talk about Sandy/Sven, who I have had DDR dog linebred on Sindy, the active aggression was not there, nor was there hardness or dominance. I personally do not feel that Sven/Sindy were good source of dominance or active aggression, but there was one breeding with Sandy that produced crazy aggression to the point the breeding was forbidden to be repeated.
Look, I'm not saying you can't get active aggression from Max or the breeding, but I still would not go to that breeding in looking for active aggression because there is not the balance I would want to see long term. Having said that, I'm happy the breeding turned out well, as there are some good dogs in the pedigree.

 

Cliff no worries at all, and I agree with the initial analysis...tends to look very sporty and high drive. I believe the aggression and Anger the dog exibits in the blind comes from Bemoan mixed with your orry further strengthend by the mother line. Zybnek mentioned that Bara z oplovny was a very nice female. You were correct in speaking to the Sven/Sindy breeding I just had a typo lol!

 

Folks, please disregard the above post by me. Though some of it reflects my thoughts, the part about Sven/Sindy should be disregarded as I reread the prior post to say Sid/Sindy. I tried to edit my post but it timed out and I tried to contact administrators and it kept sending me back to spam test. I really get frustrated with this forum. Tells me I need to take a break....Argw!
Anyway, I'm not sure who Sid and Sindy are, but I have had two sons of Sid v h Pixner, one over an Ellute daughter, and I have had another dog linebred on Sindy v Grafental....but not sure if Expo means these dogs.
In conclusion, I have further studied the 6,7,8 generations of this breeding, and can see where the type breeding Expo represented could have come from. Still, this breeding is one that I think is very open, and I think you could breed this breeding three times and get different levels of active aggression, albeit excellent working temperament in all of them.
Lisa, Carmen, Lee, what do you read?

 

oh you would ask !

I had seen Fren Kateko before on a Mike Diehl site . She stuck out in my memory because her structure was very similar to that in the American show ring - yet is Czech lines Fren Kateko and one of her youngsters Chilli z Noveho Draka

I double checked , fact checked , because sometimes pictures on PDB don't match the pedigree .

*hint to those that like the American conformation -- you can get it without compromise *

you look at the titles - the multiple titles of the offspring (Heriet in mind) -- good solid dogs

I look at the youtube of her working --- I am surprised by the poor grip -- the wanting to play with the decoy
I don't see her taking it to the man . I don't see a desire to over power and control the man .
Of course there is little tension or pressure in the work of the decoy .

I do not know.

I don't comment on the Czech dogs . (except for Andy Maly Vah)

You don't look at names on a pedigree , you look into the entire families that they were incorporated into and try to see if some things were attempted to being kept in the fore .

In this pedigree I see strong dogs -- but maybe not active aggression .

 

oh you would ask !

I had seen Fren Kateko before on a Mike Diehl site . She stuck out in my memory because her structure was very similar to that in the American show ring - yet is Czech lines Fren Kateko and one of her youngsters Chilli z Noveho Draka

I double checked , fact checked , because sometimes pictures on PDB don't match the pedigree .

*hint to those that like the American conformation -- you can get it without compromise *

you look at the titles - the multiple titles of the offspring (Heriet in mind) -- good solid dogs

I look at the youtube of her working --- I am surprised by the poor grip -- the wanting to play with the decoy
I don't see her taking it to the man . I don't see a desire to over power and control the man .
Of course there is little tension or pressure in the work of the decoy .

I do not know.

I don't comment on the Czech dogs . (except for Andy Maly Vah)

You don't look at names on a pedigree , you look into the entire families that they were incorporated into and try to see if some things were attempted to being kept in the fore .

In this pedigree I see strong dogs -- but maybe not active aggression .

Carmen, were you able to see Andy working? I never got the chance. But his videos were proof of who he was. I know Cliff knew him personally, just curious about your thoughts on Andy. I have an Andy son(8 years old today!), too bad Andy wasn't used more for breeding, and not many that he's produced have been used for breeding.

 

I did not , but a breeding-friend did .

We bred a lot of dogs co-operatively for law enforcement . I chose Andy she checked him out .

my thoughts? pretty much the ideal balance -- tough , hard , resilient dog at work, biddable, great handler connection, aloof-social and could take every where

While waiting for the female to age-out and get her health checks - Andy , who was already with some age on him - passed before we could add his lines to ours.

you have an Andy son! tell me more.

 

Carmen, I sent you a pedigree to your private email. Just watched this GSD work again yesterday. He is a phenom. Fabulous ranging, focus, capability everything about him is amazing in the field. I'm curious about your take on his pedigree. Karin

 

I wanna see. If you would, send to me please.

 

I have Gideon vom Wildhaus and Castlemaid also has a littermate Gryffon. Both are very similar(as are all the female littermates) in their drives.
Hunt drive, fight drive yet strong bidability is consistent. Though they are not extreme with prey drive. Thinking dogs that discern and that came early on, higher in threshold even without the 'maturity'.

Size-wise, they are a bit on the high end of the standard, but not extreme. Yet they are very athletic. Three of the females excel in agility(MaggieRoseLee has female GloryB). If you go on this link, this is the litter/pedigree:

(Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)

Karlo(Gideon) is the only one in this litter to have reproduced, he has had one litter with a Hawks Hunt(Suzanne Clothier program) female. He did produce much like himself in most all of the pups.

One day, I'd love to have a pup out of him. The timing wasn't right to get one of his pups earlier as I'd just taken on the Gambit.

 

I saw Max (Art) a lot in training and know what sort of dog he was to handle and live with. He, himself, was a rather rank male with very good social aggression. That Sean was able to do as well as he did with him is testament to the training skills in our club. I have never seen anything by him, though we have a very nice young male by Dexter Eisernen Kreuz X a Max daughter in our club. I don't, though, know the dam's mother's pedigree. I would not say he has any social aggression, but he is not a sporty dog either. Good balance, very clear.

There is good aggression coming down through the mom. Dogs like Falk Haus Sindern, Arthus Lünsholz, Uran Kirschental, Sagus Busecker Schloß, and a bunch of Czech lines I don't know. There are also some more sporty type dogs. I see her as being pretty balanced, but that is a guess since I don't know the Czech dogs other than names.

Since social aggression is pretty rare at this point in our breed history, I agree with Cliff that it is a toss up if you would get it in this litter. I bred together two dogs that both had social aggression and got their very high fight drive and good aggression, but not the SA as seen in mom and dad.

 

Carmen and Lisa pretty much reflect what I read in this pedigree. I like the breeding for good strong working dogs.
As for Andy, yes I saw him work, I worked him myself, and I bred to him. He tended to produce oversized, large dogs with great athleticism and beyond all very superb temperament. I mean really solid temperament, all nine of my pups had. Not high natural aggression, but capable of moving into that realm with provocation just like Andy. I have trained an Andy daughter from another breeding that is CD, TDX, and unequivocally capable of being guide dog or service dog. Andy passed tremendous nerve through his dam, who was Nessie Ben Ju, who was litter brother to Norbo Ben Ju. Norbo is known as a source of tremendous nerves in his progeny. It's a shame this dog wasn't used by top sport people with their females, because he would give the nerve underpinnings to handle the high prey drives, and he gave good seriousness in relation to the drives.

 

I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.


I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.

Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).

am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?


Lee

 

I tend to not comment on specific dogs....I am pretty hard core critical, people take things way too personally and have enough people ticked off at me

I understand because people used to come on here and say the sire of my Kyra was an absolute turd etc etc - it can sting when it is your dog's immediate family and someone is critical or nasty (in your mind) - I tend to look at pedigrees and try to see what comes from where - knowing that not every pup in the litter will express the same characteristics! But what too many do not fully grasp is that when something is behind a dog, it does not have to be expressed to be carried through to another generation in the future.


I will say that a friend is a very good friend of Max's breeder and I have spent quite a bit of time with her at the 2 WUSV events here, as my friend was their driver at one of them...so I got to know her and her helper who also spent a month here prior to Kentucky. Always curious about pedigrees, one night we got in a discussion about the female who is so prominent as the mother line in her breedings and the temperament that is often seen, as Lisa describes the son Art.....it was very enlightening....the goals and priorities of breeders in Europe are often vastly different than those of breeders here - the culture in dog sport is different and the objectivity of people is often much more realistic and analytical discussion is not taken personally. I met someone connected to Galan Naleg as well, which was also very very useful in understanding their female family.

Have seen quite a few of the dogs bred by the same kennel here, imported a pup for a client down south.....dog is a powerhouse, but very loving with family. But a total butthead in training....luckily the owner did hard hard Labs for field trials all his life and has done very well with the dog who is IPO3, FH (V)....someone experienced could have taken that dog to the WUSV. After seeing so many dogs with this mother line 2 and even 3 generations down, it seems to be very prepotent for temperament (have had several friends breed to z SK dogs, other friends have them from different dams and same sire, some of each have been titled, with my friends C litter doing well - plus an earlier client of mine got another one from a club member of hers from yet another z SK dog).

am I rambling LOL LOL LOL in attempting not to offend anyone?


Lee

Lee, not sure if it was directed towards me or but I wouldn't be offended either way ha! Always look forward to hearing perspectives on dogs and what they see. Good or bad there's always exceptions to every combo and sometimes people take things too personal. Anyway, yes very intersting how much foundation Bemoan had on sk dogs. I would venture to say that Auron is not an exception to the rule on these types of breedings...hard dogs, even harder headed sometimes but lots of dog. Great temperament when not working!

 

Lee, what/who is z sk dog?

 

Kennel name shortcut! ze Stribrneho kamene


referring back to Lisa's post on Max/"Art"

 

We actually have/had several dogs from the ze Stribrneho kamene in the region. The one young male, his owner loves, because she described him as being like a Mal. Learns fast, very compliant, high pack drive, very high toy drive, clear and sound off the field. His dam is very popular and there have been quite a few pups imported out of her for sport by various males. So far, dogs are young, I do not see the SA that was found in Max, but then, as I said, it is pretty rare now. Maybe they have moved too far away from that foundation that produced Max.

The Dam:

https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/107973/Una-ze-Stribrneho-kamene-CS

 

This dog has lines in common with mine!

This is a good thread, I've enjoyed reading it. :wink2:

 

BTW, not saying anything bad or negative. These are all very nice young dogs and puppies. Just different from Max.

 

Lisa, that pedigree you posted I would have read as producing exactly what you described....capable of very high end sport dogs through both sides.

 

Nick Vom Heiligenbosch, Yoshy Von Der Dollenweise

 

oh boy , not much video to go by -

from the little bit shown - a dog that is stressed , reactive "defensive" aggression .

close your eyes and listen .

 

Don't have time to read whole thread - will catch up later - but is the Orry being referred to Orry von der Kine, or the Italian Orry?

Orry (IT) CMKU 46238,

 

Orry v h Antverpa

 

@mycobraracr My godfather is retired SWAT and a retired Police Chief, that dog reminds me of the K9s he worked with. High drive, sleeve or no sleeve. There's anxiety in the bark, but his body language overrides it which to me says it's an excitable anxiety. This reminds me of the K9s that will throw themselves against the inside window if you get too close to the squad car. I've had that happen. Lol!

They don't mess around.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

difficult to express to someone something which experience , good comparisons and good mentors can teach you -- the nuances and the feeling a dog out

I hear frustrated prey reaction .

Can this dog do the job ? Oh , I would say so . He has the intensity .
Being reactive aggression is not saying that the dog lacks courage .

The "fire-up" might be quicker to ignite . Ultimately the threshold may have a lower ceiling ,
but not one that handi-caps the dog from getting the job done.

there may be issues with being over wrought , too easily stimulated, not being clear and not coming down and returning to a base of stable and discerning.

physically the dog might have stress reactions which will create inflammation, adrenal exhaustion, digestive impacts -- more wear and tear in general.

and speaking of general I am not targeting this dog - but the reactive aggressive dog in general.

 

hey sunsilver , this is one of those threads that is worth reading from first to finish .
Orry Antverpa Orry von Haus Antverpa

I would add Gento Larwin to the list if he is not already mentioned Gento von Haus Larwin

 

I'm trying to respond from my phone, and it's not going as well as I wanted lol. I will respond when I have a chance.

To be clear, I own the dog in the video. I have since 8 weeks old and there isn't much anyone is going to say that I haven't heard before. I know this dog in and out which is why I put him up for discussion. So don't be shy. Both of you are correct IMO. Some things I'll address when I have a chance and try and post more video.

Stupid work gets in the way of good educational conversation.

 

Oh!!! I'm excited to hear your input!

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do recognize that I never said he lacked nerve or courage or the ability to do a job well.

the question is - active aggression or reactive . I see reactive.

He is very much like the two brothers that went to SWAT in the USA .

 

Since this is your dog, we are not hearing a defensive reaction. Maybe a bit of stress with dad threatening him and prey frustration, but not defense or reactive aggression. A better picture of the dog would be with a helper/decoy he does not know.

Because I knew this was your dog, my response is a bit tainted.