Personally, I'd never mind lines and concentrate on breeders or someone you can trust to help you import or buy a dog. You can find whatever you want, if you deal with the right people.

 

What happened to Dutch Shepherds? Not matching the hype?

 

Nothing happened. I want to learn more about GSD lines.

 

No assumptions Julian, its just my firm opinion that you can read so much stuff about Czech, East German, West German, and none of it is as important as the the knowledge of the breeder and its always better to see then read. One person's "serious" is another's "Mule"

 

No worries, I didn't mean Czech vs DDR vs WGWL... I was more curious about the actual sire and dam lines known for producing more serious/hard dogs. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.

 

What do you consider serious?

 

I would consider active aggression , rather than the prey based dogs

A raw dog that stays in the fight under a lot of pressure. @carmspack, you may be right, but I have seen actively aggressive dogs who were this way because of an underlying fear.

 

I would consider active aggression , rather than the prey based dogs

 

What are some of the differences between active aggression GSDs vs high prey drive GSDs? I believe I've had both but honestly not sure.

 

there is a difference between active and reactive aggression.

the difference is seen in the dog in the "normal" state - when no aggression of any sort is needed.

there is an aura of power and will

 

Yes, there is an aura. It's a bit hard to explain but I feel as though I know it when I see it. Anyways, do you know of any lines like this?

 

My thoughts on this, why not just get a nice, social, confident, high drivey dog and work him or her in a protection sport with reputable people.

Learn all you can and title the dog. IPO, ring, something with a good reputation and good people in the sport.

You like that dog, and she's got what it takes, go ahead after that and train her in some basic PPD work. It's not a huge leap from IPO to PPD with most dogs. Even prey can be channeled into some pretty serious "aggression".

I know next to nothing about GSD lines, except that I like what I see in some GSDs, when I see it. I am far more familiar with malinois pedigrees.

Where are you living that you see a need for a dog staying in the fight? All it takes is one look at my big male staring at them from a sit at my side, and next to nobody will bother me.

Many people have an almost primal fear of a big, strong, pointy-eared dog. Use that, and you won't need the dog to engage or stay in a fight, unless you are really in a bad area. And then-rock-paper-scissors... gun over dog.

Of course I am assuming you've got rock solid OB and a good human-dog relationship.

 

Ugh, what are you even talking about? If you don't know the answer then don't go off on some assumption based rant. All I asked is which lines were known for producing serious/hard dogs. Maybe it's something I want to avoid? Maybe it's something I need? Maybe it's just something that I'm curious about? Doesn't matter, mind your own business please.

 

I have seen it a lot in Caucasian Shepherds.

 

On line or in real life? Theirs a huge difference. I can show you anything online. But real life it's a completely different manner.

 

So get a CO. Good luck to you and your neighbors.

It becomes society's business, everyone's business, when people who refuse to educate themselves go around looking for the hardest dog they can find.

 

Yep that's exactly what I'm doing Sherlock. You sure seem to have me all figured out

 

I know of one breeder/line of dogs (I've met 2 females from one breeding in person) that are for the lack of a better word INTENSE. I know she breeds working dogs and I've been around shepherds for most of my life, but never met any that had the drive/look that while not ever being afraid of dogs I was cautious about approaching. I'm in Canada but if you want the name of the breeder PM me. Not sure if she would consider you(or me, lol) for one of her pups, I never met her but heard she is very specific about who her dogs go to.

 

Do you mean like SCH/IPO, military, K9, or just down right mean watch dogs. When I think of a hard German Shepherd for some reason I automatically go to closed line Czech German Shepherd, and closed line DDR german shepherd. Dogs of the past. Maybe a couple breeders that have been able to keep the lines closed but most are a mix of different lines.

 

:wink2:

If I started a new thread would anyone be interested in a discussion of Czech lines?

 

here are some dogs fitting that description

Monchi Malatesta Monchi von Malatesta

Lewis Malatesta AND his sire Mink Wittfeld Lewis von Malatesta

Addi Tonteichen Addi von den Tonteichen

Alf and Akut Lablapega Akut Lablapega

Lord Gleisdreieck Lord vom Gleisdreieck

starting to put things together Carmspack Mirko Carmspack Mirko

Carmspack Chunko (decoys choice - Nationals) and his brother Simon Carmspack Chunko

Cito T T H Cito vom Haus TTH

Carmspack Tyko Carmspack Tyko

Boris Trogenbach Boris vom Trogenbach (1973)

Link Muikenshof Link van Muikenshof

Ina and Ira haus Gard Ina vom Haus Gard

Verwin Blitsaerd Verwin van Blitsaerd

Orry v h Antverpa Orry von Haus Antverpa

Ouchie v d Schiffslache Ouchie von der Schiffslache

there are others

if you go through the pedigrees you will see a theme , a continuity

 

Carmen and I generally agree at least 75% of the time....a few here I haven't seen much of, and one I don't agree with because what I have seen from the line has not stood up in nerves/confidence consistently enough...

I will agree especially with Lord and Orry/Verwin....I prefer Mink to go through Jago Lindenhalle only....


The key to me is consistency in a litter.....when a litter is all over the place, to the point that a breeder culls, then to me it negates what he is producing because he is still passing on the genetics that caused him to cull.....a couple breeders well known for "hard" dogs are also well known for culling their litters down to those pups they feel fit their images....

 

....I prefer Mink to go through Jago Lindenhalle only....

Could you elaborate please?

 

Could you elaborate please?

I think that is pretty clear. If I do a breeding that will have Mink in the sire, I want it to go through Jago.....other wise, I keep looking.


Lee

 

Get a dog from Tiekerhook kennels, he breeds for that " type" of dog. Doesn't mean your specific pup will grow up into that, anymore than breeding that type of adult dog will produce that type of puppy. It takes a real expert that has been breeding the same foundation stock, who has knowledge and intent to produce that type of dog to be able to develop that type " line". I would say Koos of Tiekerhook, and Jiri of Jinopo are probably as close as you get.

 

One last things, that doesn't mean every breeding from them will be like that....because they recognize the need for balancing genetics, some of their breeding/dogs will not be of that nature, but they both have the genetics in their lines to have certain breedings that are of the type you asked about.

 

There's this girl. She seems to fit the pedigree requirements.
Gina Jipo-Me

 

This little girl is a Gina jipo offspring. Young enough to still be relevant today. Vanvan Jipo-Me
Do you guys think that pedigrees like these were common or expected back in the day. With both of my dogs pedigree seems to be active with SCH, IPO, etc.... 4 generations back. Seems when Americans got the dogs and wanted to make profit without working the dogs the pedigrees went to ****.

 

Talk to knowledgeable people of the venues that use the type of dog you desire. As one poster wrote, the specialization and nuances of the different directions of breeding has greatly altered the breed. The sport people are as knowledgeable about PPD/LE type dogs as the show people are of sport dogs. They all live in different worlds with different end goals, valuing different attributes in the breed.
Pet people have even less insight. Now I don't mean this degradingly at all, different strokes for different folks; but just like sport people don't don't focus on what wins in conformation ring, or show people don't focus on what will excel on sport field.....neither of them are anything but marginally focused on what constitutes a good PPD/LE or the breeders or experts that deal in this world. Sure, some think they do, but I have seen so many sport people feel that X dog would be a good LE dog solely because of aggression?.
Talk to breeders that have bred dogs that consistently have become LE or PPD dogs, not folks who occasionally produce one. These breeders are out there....do your homework.

 

I completely agree and I've said this before; Just because a dog bites on the field doesn't mean they will bite in a real life situation. What we see on the field is a routine. There is a breeder who I won't mention the name of, but he shows what his dogs are capable of by setting up real life scenarios such as car jackings, home invasions, child abductions. He also gives a few very informative tips on what NOT to do when purchasing his dogs because he knows they are as serious as a heart attack. This breeder does not compete in any dog sports but his dogs have a proven track record of becoming successful LE and PPD.

 

give an example of one of the pedigrees, or any stud , or any of the females.

 

I believe his dogs are out of the van leeuwen lines. These are knpv dogs.

 

study the pedigrees

study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection

look at Kutter vom Landesberg

(look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern

study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!

understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.

People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental

most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same

Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.

 

study the pedigrees

study Lord Gleisdreieck and discover the Ex Riedstern content and connection

look at Kutter vom Landesberg

(look at Astor Waldidyll (sire of Arko Honest (another name to add to the list) and see the content and connection to Ex Riedstern

study Held, Golf, Ritterberg and understand the beauty of power combination of Bernd Lierberg and Ex Riedstern !!

understand the contribution of Tula Antverpa -- again a Ex x Bernd power combination.

People have forgotten the real Kirschental dogs -- Uwe and Urban Uwe vom Kirschental


most only know the trialing dogs which are high percentage show line -- not at all the same

Those Uwe and Urban produced naturally hard dogs.

awwww Kutter! Had planned a breeding to him with Csabre but snowstorms and travel screwed me up....

I think the strength in my female family is directly tied to the strong influence of Ex/Bernd etc behind Kira Frolich Haus.....I know most did not like her sire, but the the breeding worked well and has continued through 3 more generations consistantly....


Lee

 

yes Kutter ----

got him locked away -- in a young female

breeding goes back to one of my females which had
Dix Maineiche x Racker X Bernd (droll vd schopf)

to Kilo (Bernd x Ingo) X Linda (Bernd x Ex)

Asko Schloss Zweibruggen (Racker and Vefa Kirschental )
and Busecker Schloss and old Bungalow.

plans for the future

 

there were two ways the OP's question could have been answered.

one would have lead to - where can I find , where can I buy "this" type

the other leads to how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future

so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes.

no one buying a dog for end user work-use will dissect a pedigree or care where it came from.
all they care about is what can this dog do for me . end of story.

unless breeders pay attention to and understand the genetics then these types of dogs will fade away.

 

"how to "make" how to ensure that dogs of this type have a future
so that they are consistent to breeders and to litters and not flukes."

so I was thinking on Antverpa and how significant an impact they had on hard , emotionally durable dogs --

I thought of another line that should be focused on and that is Nessel Antverpa --

the ladies at von der Polizei , a breeding program that was very consistent in producing a legacy of working LE
dogs -- foundation was Nessel Antverpa.

ms wolstraum , I think you did well by Nessel.

I did well with Nessel through his daughter Queenie .

Carmspack Alza

which developed into this http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1923316-carmspack-stark
now 8 years later happily retired http://www.eriecoblotter.com/single....com/single-post/2016/09/16/Happy-Retirement-Officer-Howe-K9-Stark---Buffalo-PD

there was consistency -- basically all the males went to work - except for Mathias who I kept back and a female that went to TD

 

My L's, another generation along, are sired by a dog linebred on Cordan An Sat - another very serious dog - sire is an active SAR dog, one girl is SAR adn the other doing IPO, but again, a serious dog.


Lee

 

Julian here is pedigree info for some of the dogs Lee is talking about,
Komet von Wolfstraum
Csabre von Wolfstraum
My pup is out of Kira von Wolfstraum, very nice female, has an HGH title. I see her brother Kougar very often at club, really like this dog, intense in protection, working on getting his IPO2.

 

Sid v haus Pixner...period

 

What do you like about him?