[volumedown]

But you let them pet her right? It's not fair to a pup that young to expect neutral behavior (what is that to you?) when kids pet her if you allowed kid to pet her. That requires careful management. Again, post a video.

Do what? That isn't happening anymore. She doesn't allow people near her in general.

 

[Cassidy's Mom]

I believe base level training/ OB is a complete fraud scam.

What a weird belief. For someone with prior experience training their own dogs and the knowledge of dog behavior that comes with that experience, a private trainer for basic obedience is generally not necessary. That doesn't mean it's fraud or a scam, just that not everyone needs it.

 

[volumedown]

What a weird belief. For someone with prior experience training their own dogs and the knowledge of dog behavior that comes with that experience, a private trainer for basic obedience is generally not necessary. That doesn't mean it's fraud or a scam, just that not everyone needs it.

It's an odd belief, sure it's just my opinion. People have some pretty wild opinions

 

[wolfy dog]

Do what? That isn't happening anymore. She doesn't allow people near her in general.

I was referring to the time when she was a young as in the picture on the slide. The verb "let" in my question "But you let them pet her right?" was written in the past tense, meaning that something may have happened to her that you were not aware of.

 

[volumedown]

I was referring to the time when she was a young as in the picture on the slide. The verb 'let" was written in the past tense.

She was fine then, didn't care, nor was she ever uncomfortable around people. She would approach them like any pup would. Assuming anything is unfair with that, then 99% of people mishandle their dogs and they turn out great. Mine must have been the 1%.

 

[Weikafei]

I am not as experienced as anyone that has responded but I've been reading/following this thread.

What strikes me is that you've described her aggression as being so strong that you can barely control her (at 250 lbs ish I think you said.)

I've had two bully breeds in my past with very intense dog aggression... both 75+ lbs dogs. My current GSD Vili is 9 months old and 85lbs. He has hit the end of a leash hard (with a 105lb dog in my other hand!) and I still have never felt like I barely have control. I've realized I don't have enough control though and switched him to a prong to help regain control more quickly. And... that's a dog twice the size of yours in one hand only.

I weigh less than you by quite a bit and I have never felt I could "barely control" any of the dogs I've described above, 2 of which were truly dog aggressive / leash reactive.

They've asked for videos and you've said you won't put anyone in danger (nor would anyone suggest it) but you've also said she will react at the mere sight of a child... so it doesn't seem like you need to put anyone in danger. You simply need to be close enough to trigger the reaction while someone else films it. It sounds like that means the kids could be pretty far away.

If her aggression is as bad as you say, and you spend as much time as you suggest training her, you should already be getting her trained to accept a muzzle. It will be the only way you can work with her near triggers and keep everyone safe. I've had to do this with one of the dogs above and it re opened the world back up to us because we could be back out in it and everyone would be safe.

The fact that you make such big statements about how aggressive she is but think trainers are a waste blows my mind. If you weren't having problems, I'd agree but if she's as aggressive as you describe... most responsible dog owners would find a trainer that specializes in German shepherds by this point. Especially for such a young dog.

Vili went through a really early fear period that made me very anxious. He would lose his little mind at new people, new dogs, etc. But I just kept at the socialization, the age appropriate corrections and the fear period passed. I think I've read dogs can go through 2 fear periods in puppy hood and they can be very intense and come/go without rhyme or reason.

I understand your caution considering it's children but tools, when introduced slowly and properly, like muzzles and maybe a small prong collar, you should be able to work her through it with training for how to use the tool, how to appropriately correct/redirect, etc.

It took my vet, a trainer that specialized in aggression, and the dogs breeder about 5 years to finally admit that one of the two dogs I described above had genetic aggression issues that could not be treated/trained and that were more extreme/less manageable with age. Her wires were crossed (or something.) The other dog I mentioned, who was very dog selective, had a pretty normal life (and lived with me until he was 16 happily and healthy!) - once I learned how to be an advocate for him we were a great team.

It sounds like she needs someone that knows the breed and is able to make the right assessments over the next few months to give her a chance.

Perhaps I misread but I thought you said youre in West Virginia. I'm in Michigan and I'd be willing to help with transport within the Midwest/general region to an experienced GSD trainer. I'm not experienced enough to help her be successful.

 

[volumedown]

I am not as experienced as anyone that has responded but I've been reading/following this thread.

What strikes me is that you've described her aggression as being so strong that you can barely control her (at 250 lbs ish I think you said.)

I've had two bully breeds in my past with very intense dog aggression... both 75+ lbs dogs. My current GSD Vili is 9 months old and 85lbs. He has hit the end of a leash hard (with a 105lb dog in my other hand!) and I still have never felt like I barely have control. I've realized I don't have enough control though and switched him to a prong to help regain control more quickly. And... that's a dog twice the size of yours in one hand only.

I weigh less than you by quite a bit and I have never felt I could "barely control" any of the dogs I've described above, 2 of which were truly dog aggressive / leash reactive.

They've asked for videos and you've said you won't put anyone in danger (nor would anyone suggest it) but you've also said she will react at the mere sight of a child... so it doesn't seem like you need to put anyone in danger. You simply need to be close enough to trigger the reaction while someone else films it. It sounds like that means the kids could be pretty far away.

If her aggression is as bad as you say, and you spend as much time as you suggest training her, you should already be getting her trained to accept a muzzle. It will be the only way you can work with her near triggers and keep everyone safe. I've had to do this with one of the dogs above and it re opened the world back up to us because we could be back out in it and everyone would be safe.

The fact that you make such big statements about how aggressive she is but think trainers are a waste blows my mind. If you weren't having problems, I'd agree but if she's as aggressive as you describe... most responsible dog owners would find a trainer that specializes in German shepherds by this point. Especially for such a young dog.

Vili went through a really early fear period that made me very anxious. He would lose his little mind at new people, new dogs, etc. But I just kept at the socialization, the age appropriate corrections and the fear period passed. I think I've read dogs can go through 2 fear periods in puppy hood and they can be very intense and come/go without rhyme or reason.

I understand your caution considering it's children but tools, when introduced slowly and properly, like muzzles and maybe a small prong collar, you should be able to work her through it.

It took my vet, a trainer that specialized in aggression, and the dogs breeder about 5 years to finally admit that one of the two dogs I described above had genetic aggression issues that could not be treated/trained and that were more extreme/less manageable with age. Her wires were crossed (or something.) The other dog, who was very dog selective, could have a pretty normal life - especially once I learned how to be an advocate for him.

It sounds like she needs someone that knows the breed and is able to make the right assessments over the next few months to give her a chance.

Perhaps I misread but I thought you said youre in West Virginia. I'm in Michigan and I'd be willing to help with transport within the Midwest/general region to an experienced GSD trainer. I'm not experienced enough to help her be successful.

I didnt say i couldn't control her, I said that in regards to how hard she's trying to get to someone. I can easily over power her and make her submit. That's clearly not the goal here. I have stated several times I'm against base level obedience training. It's a fraud. They asked for videos today and I've already said I can have my wife film it when the opportunity arises.

 

[Weikafei]

I didnt say i couldn't control her, I said that in regards to how hard she's trying to get to someone. I can easily over power her and make her submit. That's clearly not the goal here. I have stated several times I'm against base level obedience training. It's a fraud. They asked for videos today and I've already said I can have my wife film it when the opportunity arises.

You don't have to go to a trainer for base level obedience. The one dog I mentioned had very good basic obedience on our own, I went to a trainer that specialized in aggression. We included reinforcing and improving base level obedience but the focus was on her reactivity and techniques to manage/redirect/desensitize.

The other dog I mentioned well needed base level obedience (he wasn't out of control though) plus help with dog reactivity (I was pretty young with him as well early 20s.) The difference in the two was not basic obedience... it was one Bully breed with dog selective aggression that is very common to their genetics and could be managed while the other had some kind of genetic issue that made the aggression unmanagable as it continued to get worse / began to expand to people. The muzzle helped us tremendously in her case, but didn't solve it.

My larger point is that it took a team of people that stayed close to us over many years to get to the decision that it was genetics.

Also the blanket statement that dog training is a fraud is ridiculous. Do you think that military and police dogs are just born that way? You don't think they all started with badic obedience under the supervision of professional dog trainers?

If your basic obedience is already super strong then a reputable/experienced trainer will give you check marks for that and focus on the problems faster.

I'm using a dog trainer for Vili... not because I don't understand how to teach a dog sit or come or down but because I want better than the basics for him and know he is going to be a powerful, large dog with guardian instincts. I'll take the help of a pro plus my own time and effort (plus my own watching of videos online) to try and do right by him. Plus bugging the really patient people on this forum. Lol

 

[volumedown]

You don't have to go to a trainer for base level obedience. The one dog I mentioned had very good basic obedience on our own, I went to a trainer that specialized in aggression. We included reinforcing and improving base level obedience but the focus was on her reactivity and techniques to manage/redirect/desensitize.

The other dog I mentioned well needed base level obedience (he wasn't out of control though) plus help with dog reactivity (I was pretty young with him as well early 20s.) The difference in the two was not basic obedience... it was one Bully breed with dog selective aggression that is very common to their genetics and could be managed while the other had some kind of genetic issue that made the aggression unmanagable as it continued to get worse / began to expand to people. The muzzle helped us tremendously in her case, but didn't solve it.

My larger point is that it took a team of people that stayed close to us over many years to get to the decision that it was genetics.

Also the blanket statement that dog training is a fraud is ridiculous. Do you think that military and police dogs are just born that way? You don't think they all started with badic obedience under the supervision of professional dog trainers?

If your basic obedience is already super strong then a reputable/experienced trainer will give you check marks for that and focus on the problems faster.

I'm using a dog trainer for Vili... not because I don't understand how to teach a dog sit or come or down but because I want better than the basics for him and know he is going to be a powerful, large dog with guardian instincts. I'll take the help of a pro plus my own time and effort (plus my own watching of videos online) to try and do right by him. Plus bugging the really patient people on this forum. Lol

Man I've said at least 40 times in this post I wasn't talking about that type of training LOL I appreciate your input it's not possible to back and look at everything.

 

[wolfy dog]

She was fine then, didn't care, nor was she ever uncomfortable around people. She would approach them like any pup would. Assuming anything is unfair with that, then 99% of people mishandle their dogs and they turn out great. Mine must have been the 1%.

Don't pout. I invested my time to help you see her in a more objective way. But I guess that didn't work so I wish your dog a lot of luck. She needs it.

 

[volumedown]

Don't pout.

Appreciate the back pat guy!

 

[Weikafei]

Man I've said at least 40 times in this post I wasn't talking about that type of training LOL I appreciate your input it's not possible to back and look at everything.

I've read much of it where people suggest training and you dismiss it a bit. My point is that it all starts with basic obedience because that is an important part of having all the tools you need to help her.

So, in theory, if your basic obedience is good (heel, sit, come, stay, down, leave it, off) you can focus the time with a professional on assessing her reactivity, management tips and figuring out the tools you need.

If she doesn't have the basic obedience, you'll have to get that foundation while working the problem and it will take more time with a trainer to make progress where you want/need.

Thank goodness I haven't seen anyone mention it, but with the one dog I mentioned I was initially lead down an ecollar path as a way to manage her aggression and it was the worst suggestion/training path. It set us back a whole lot. In Michigan it seems to be popular, especially with trainers that say they specialize in aggression. And they claim their technique makes it ok, despite the warning that comes with ecollars.

I agree there are training scams out there (positive only, ecollar only, alpha training etc) and it can be daunting finding someone. But there are legit trainers too.

 

[AE316]

I read your post from Jan when she was 4 months. Mine acted the same on my property and now on walks. We only started walks about 4 or so weeks ago. At work she won't bark at others or people at other businesses near by. Sometimes she does wanting to meet them. In that post you said you didn't wanna bother with trainers. That seems to be the problem. My trainer who deals with GSD said her barking at a lot of stuff is normal. Today she barked at a tree we walked by. One time at a recycling bin including mine so I brought her to the item. She is skddish.

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[Bknmaizey]

So… you say she’s fine with your daughter and you love the dog to death. Ok…

In your last thread, I told you that if it were me, I’d keep in mind my limits and whether I had the wherewithal to do what’s needed to work through her emerging issues. I specifically said I would consider giving her back to the breeder if your expectations for a dog in your life are incompatible with the current reality presented by this dog and a potential inability to put in the work to get the dog you want. Your response was “There is zero reason to give the dog back when she acts completely fine around us and in the house, that may just how it has to be and that's fine.”

It’s gone from that to euthanizing her in the span of her going from 4 months to 6 months. This is a very sad situation. If you continue to disregard the advice you’re getting here, Ava clearly won’t survive to 8 months.

I’ve read every post on this thread, re-read both of your old threads and then started re-reading this thread from the beginning to revisit your earlier comments... It’s obvious to me that you’re in over your head. There’s no shame in that. Between months 8-9, we did a one-month board and train with our breeder. Not only was it great for our dog but it was exactly the reset I needed personally because I was at my own breaking point with her. GSDs are a tough breed. If you can’t or refuse to invest in the training that both you and the dog need, this is a no-win situation. And it’ll only get worse.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the sooner you find someone experienced enough and willing to take her off your hands, the better.

 

[tim_s_adams]

It's good that someone FINALLY reread this and other threads! It's all connected.

There's absolutely no reason to believe there's anything genetic or neurologically wrong with this puppy! It is, and always has been fine with the OP's 3 yr old!

Starts as a little reactive barking. Left to her own devices progresses to more outwardly aggressive showings, and viola. Now you have a puppy that scares you.

Not even a little bit hard to predict. This puppy needs guidance, that's it.

If I were to guess, I'd say that foundational obedience is nowhere near where it needs to be also. But that's just me based on a couple years of seeing this same darn thing happen over and over and over.

OP hire a trainer!

 

[peachygeorgia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was genetic or neurological, why is her aggression ONLY directed towards children?? Youd think if she was just wired wrong everything would be included, yet kids and other dogs are often the most common training issues, if she's fine with adults, it seems like something has happened youre not aware of, or haven't fixed imho

Charlie had problems with kids as well, id call it light fear aggression, kids always scared/irritated him, smaller they were, the more fearful/reactive he was, we worked through it and now he's perfectly fine, plays and cuddles with my nieces and nephews, with boundaries and supervision of course.

Hope you find a suitable situation for her!

 

[AE316]

Also why did you get a puppy if you can't afford a trainer? One I was using charged about $45 for 30mins. Some young adult running a business from her basement who has no idea about GSDs. My new trainer charges $30 for 1 hour. She's retired and deals with GSD. Why did you invest in a pet like others who can't even afford vet bills that will occur? Did you not think this through financially? Why buy a Lamborghini when you can afford insurance and car payments but can't maintain it?

 

[Jax08]

Pretty sure the OP is just ignoring me now so I'm adding this for anyone else reading that it might help.

So first, dogs have fight or flight. Just because you are seeing Fight does not mean that's not fear driven. It's often a case of very aggressive "I'll get you before you get me". It's a very ugly, aggressive, reaction. It's not prey. It's 100% survival instinct.

Here's the thing with trainers - even if the trainer charges $100 session, you don't need to go every single week. Or even long term. A person can go, learn, go home and apply and go back 3 weeks later when they are ready for the next step. People have this misconception that they need to drop thousands on a trainer. Yes, a trainer will charge you thousands for an out of control, adult, dog who is 1 step away from harming someone. Because they don't want to deal with a mess that should have been taken care of at 6 months and they are tired of putting their life in danger to do so. But this is not that thase.

I helped a young man that came here for help with a dog that is nervy. I've never seen such fear in a dog when she's around people and you could see it in her eyes. Two sessions and a couple of follow up videos. I gave him the tools he needed to take control of the situation. Yup....did it for free. But he did bring me a bag of cookies the first time we met.

My male erupted at children when he was 4-6 months old in exactly how the OP describes. It's winter, kids look like little, faceless, stay puft marshmallow people moving weird and screeching. Of course a puppy will react. So I taught him the tools he needed to deal with situations where thinks scared him. This is not prey drive. It's fight or flight in a puppy that doesn't know what these things are. He's an incredibly solid dog. Not nervy. He was just a puppy.

My Jax was dog aggressive. It was constant scanning of hte environment for other dogs and blocking people who wanted Pookie to meet the angry German Shepherd because Pookie is friendly. Tools to deal. You don't need to like the other dog. You only need to do what I say and respect that other dog's right to breathe. Again...fight or flight. And she wasn't going to back down. But again....100% fear driven response that was violent and ugly to watch.

And in both cases, these dogs erupted in a very ugly fit that scared people. They were not backing up, they were in fight mode in a situation where they felt they needed to fight to survive. My point is - you don't know what you don't know. Don't assume the dog is in prey, or any drive that we sport people think is appropriate, or the dog is genetically wired wrong. It could be a puppy that just doesn't have the tools. Even a weaker nerved dog can get past this by learning the tools needed to deal with the stressor and obedience to the handler.

Like I told @Hopps Sunday when we spoke - I don't care what's causing it. Inappropriate aggression is inappropriate aggression. The tools to stop it are the same. A trainer will teach a person the tools. I don't even advise a person do this without a trainer because timing for corrections and rewards are so important.

 

[CrystalLake]

This is just a vent post, to anyone who sees it you're 100% fine to leave whatever feedback you'd like. Maybe my story will show how important it is to buy from reputable breeders/meet the parents of your great GSD. It's just closure for me at this point

If you've seen my last posts on my page, I have a now 6 month old GSD female who had, and still has pretty moderate aggressive issues. Which has worsened since then with the the new addition of aggression.

I first knew something was off when I got her, she wasn't excited to see anyone, and wanted to run right back to the back yard where she was. (8 weeks) when we brought her home, she warmed up and became our best friend. We took her everywhere with us, inside stores, parks, walks and she was absolutely great. Doing fantastic actually. She let people approach, pet, and didn't mind kids at all. She would follow us off the leash, got over her fear of stairs immediately. She learned, sit, stay, Spin, shake, down faster than I've seen any other dog learn. I took her to the vet for updated shots, and she did great there as well. Just normal, typical development of a puppy.

One day, at the 3 month old mark she found her voice and began barking at everyone she saw, and dogs. This behavior came from thin air. She would stop listening to commands, and would not redirect her attention even in the presence of treats. In the house, still our same dog we had since 8 weeks. Outside, a completely different personality, and remember, everything was fine up until the 3 month old point. I didn't really mind the barking because she eventually let me redirect her attention and would get over it so that was improvement.

One day at a park, a little girl my daughter's age was there (3) and Ava was on her back lets lunging, eyes completely white trying to get this little girl who wasn't acting sporadic or crazy. That was the day she truly scared me, and I realized then I did not have a normal dog. These behaviors never stopped after that. Introducing, seeing or even smelling another dog isn't an option for her and believe me I tried. Kids, are absolutely a no go for her. She's lunged and attempted to bite several, and I have to leave the park immediately. And for those who think "how's her exercise?" Its great and always has been. She runs and jumps excellent, very athletic dog. Her recent food aggression is just another "what else"? If you approach her, she gets very stiff, snarls and growls as a grown man, it's actually scary experienceing it. She never showed any food aggression before. She doesnt with her toys or anything else for now. If it was just me and my wife I would just let her eat, but I have a 3 year who who this dog is now bigger than. There's no such thing as her attacking my child.

On a recent trip to the vet, they tried taking her out back to see how she was and she "lunged" and "tried to bite". The vet was very concerned with her I could tell. She suggested some anxiety medication, both situational and long term. I gave it a try and there's been zero difference. On a road trip I stopped by a family members house in Illinois and gave the situational medication a try. It's a "sedation" type deal and didn't work AN OUNCE. She got out of the uhaul and acted straight horrible. I was actually shocked. Several people told me something was definitely off with her. They suggested the parents were probably very aggressive and it passed down to her. Unfortunately for her, she's now a massive liability and somebody WILL get hurt. I do not have the thousands of dollars for "room and board" training that ultimately wouldn't work, a guy already turned me down for it. She acts like an animal that's been chained up in a backyard and saw one person their entire life.

I've been around several GSDs and they are outstanding dogs. From highly trained police K9s my step father had to GSDs out of a friend's back yard.

"Why didn't you train or that dog wasn't aggressive" the dog is absolutely aggressive I don't care if they know how to be at 6 months or not, she did. I reached out to a couple trainers who to my surprise, didn't want to do it.

Ava was born into the world by negligence. The "breeder" didn't know what he was doing, and I should have never went through with the transaction. Bad lessons learned here, always meet the parents.

We currently have a 18 month old male GSD that developed similar tendencies to your dog around 6-7 months of age. He started growling and lunging, particularly at children. He was well loved, trained, socialized, and acquired from a reputable breeder. I was extremely anxious about these behaviors. We found a trainer that had years of experience with working line German shepherds. It was by no means easy, but we doubled down on training and persisted on exposing him to uncomfortable situations. I invested much money and time in training. I also went through a couple trainers before we found the right fit. Our vet was no help. Vets are wonderful resources, but not behavior experts. At 6 months, your GSD is still a puppy. She is still learning about the world around her and sometimes reacting inappropriately to situations where she feels insecure for whatever reason. I think you need to ask yourself whether you have the time and patience to put in the training she needs. Sometimes we do not end up with the easy dog. If you have children at home, maybe you do not have the time required. I certainly would not euthanize her. Find a trainer that is familiar with the breed to work with her or rehome her to someone familiar with GSDs. She is way too young to be dismissed as aggressive. Today our 18 month GSD is totally fine and relaxed with children, that also includes bikers, horses, cows, coyotes, skateboarders, etc, etc, etc…He used to get really riled up and lunge and snap. He needed extensive training and time to grow and learn. We get complements on him all the time today. Often these “wonderful GSDs” have a trainer/ owner that has put in extensive work to get the dog to that point. I am sure some dogs are easier than others, but in general, you have a teach a puppy how you want them to act.

 

[Jax08]

Without seeing the dog or when you are rewarding/correcting, I can't give input on your particular situation. That's why I tell people to work with a trainer. Timing is everything.

I don't "avoid" situations. I work thru them.