Why a silent guard and not active? Just wondering? Preference? Or hasn’t been taught yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

A little bit of both. A guard is not required in the PDC and that has been our focus. A guard is required in the higher levels. The little bit of guarding my dog has been introduced to involved putting an upside down place box in front of the decoy who is not wearing any equipment so as not to cue the dog a bite is imminent. The place box is a cue for correct positioning. He is on a long line I send him to guard. He simply has to very quickly run and get on the place box in front of the decoy and make eye contact without trying to bite. He is rewarded with a 6" Klin soft, soccer like ball because it is a lower value reward that a bite, plus the decoy has no equipment. For me, the barking in the guard is a waste of a dog's energy. The evolvement of the so-called bark and hold, as I have been taught, has some history behind it and has largely been bastardized, especially in IPO. Originally, it developed out of the border patrol dogs from the Eastern Bloc countries having their dogs search for smugglers and the like. When the dog located them, they apprehended them with a bite. The smugglers got smart and made sleeve like protection and when the dog bit their arm, they would disable or kill the dog with blunt trauma or some other means. Then there is the police bark and hard which is very different from an IPO/sport bark and hard. The concept is that the dog learns to hold and fight the subject with his bark and not his bite, which is very unnatural for most dogs. In the police bark and hold, the dog is facing the same issues the early smugglers presented in that if they did a typical sport B&H they could easily be injured or killed so police dogs were taught to guard from a distance. The barking was a way to tell their handler where they were holding the bad guy because there was concern if the dog automatically bit, police departments could be liable for excessive force. Few if any police departments use the B&H today. It has become a mainstay of IGP, but the vast majority of dogs are not actually holding/fighting the decoy with their bark, but have learned to bark in prey for the sleeve. In some top level IGP sport dogs, you will see a silent guard after the out in the escape bite, but they have to do an active, rhythmic bark in the blind to score well. My dog doesn't actually have the concept of guarding because it hasn't been paired with an escape bite, which will likely be a bite to the leg behind the knee. So in PSA, the active guard is not a requirement, IMO it wastes energy, and it is a no longer what it originally was intended to be.

 

I like the guarding behavior and exercises, but IPO aside, aren't you worried using props and rewarding with a toy is promoting exactly what you don't seem to like? A fake appearance of something? I see in your other video your dog doesn't react to a pretty good pop in the chops, aren't you kinda creating that? You don't think the helper running away could just be an extension of the game you're playing ?

 

Firstly, most know that there are many different approaches to train dogs behaviors and exercises that can be successful. As for the use of "props," my dog was exposed to the place box at an early age as a means of facilitating self discovery, so he has been imprinted to see the box as a directional guide which will also come in useful for other more advanced exercises. The box allows him to perform the shaping of the guard in the correct position by increasing the likelihood that his position will be correct the very first time. The result is less conflict. The reward with a toy is also a way to avoid conflict. If the dog was sent to guard for the first time on a decoy wearing a suit and getting a reward with a bite, he would be more likely to bite next time than guard, which is the opposite of what I am trying to accomplish, which would result in punishment and create conflict. It is a not a fake appearance but rather the beginning of shaping a behavior. No different than teaching a boxer how to fight by learning how to punch on a bag before punching an opponent. The dog has good man orientation so that is not a concern I have. Re: my dog's reaction to a slap, what reaction would you expect for the first time the dog has done the exercise and been slapped? He maintained eye contact with the decoy and still was eager to bite. I don't know what you mean about the helper running away, since that didn't happen. Could you clarify? In IPO/IGP the whole exercise could be considering using props because the dog is training to bite a sleeve which really isn't seen as an extension of the decoy and is not so different from a ball. It is not uncommon for IGP trainers to use a place box in the blind to teach correct positioning. By trial time, the dog always knows what blind the helper is in so searching all the blinds is a fake appearance of searching for him.

 

Self discovery, Lol. You said adding the escape bite, the helper running away would transform his guarding. With the foundation of discovering himself for a toy, I would wonder about how an escape bite alone would do more then just create an anticipation of reward no different then throwing that ball? I generally like some conflict in the guarding, between the helper and the dog. I would have thought that uppercut would have tapped into some of that and gotten a stronger reaction, especially when they have good man orientation, unless he's never been in a car before, period. I'm not knocking your dog though Chip, just trying to figure these inconsistencies, or what at least what seems to me to be inconsistencies when it comes to your strong opinions on different things. Like a ball in obedience is bad, and in IPO its bad, but its ok in PSA protection.

 

I never said anything about "discovering himself for a toy." I said he was exposed to the place box at an early age to learn self discovery which means if he goes to the place box without a command (self discovery) he gets a reward. That progresses to going to the place box and learning sits and downs which is also part of self discovery. It has nothing to do with discovering himself, what ever that means. It has to do with the dog discovering on his own that by trying/offering certain behaviors yields reinforcement. The use of the place box in the teaching of the guard has nothing to do with self discovery. It has to do with the dog being conditioned to going to the box and expecting something good will happen. I never said a ball is bad. I use a ball on a string or a tug all the time for primary obedience. I believe I have said that it is not a good idea to get the dog too dependent on the handler overstimulating the dog with the ball or tug to increase drive because when it comes time to trial, the toy will not be there. Same is true for the importance of fading the lure.

 

If he's going to be man oriented and he has the temperament for it, wouldn't you rather he go into that guarding with a little edge, not looking for something good to happen?

 

In another venue, yes, but in PSA, if a dog bites a decoy when he isn't supposed to it is an automatic DQ.

 

What venue allows it?

 

I would have been more accurate in stating that PSA is based on decoys trying to get a dog to bite in obedience and protection exercises and is largely about controlled aggression. Also, it is not a patterned sport that cannot be trained in a patterned fashion such as IGP. That is why control is best taught by making toys become more rewarding than biting the decoy while the dog is learning controlled aggression, which can be a challenge because the dog has to learn to ignore the decoy and be satisfied with the reward of the toy. The example I can think of where a dog can bite without being DQ’ed is in IGP where the dog is dirty in the blind and will only lose points depending on the judge and level of competition. The level of distraction in obedience and protection in PSA vs. IGP don’t compare, so the training has to be very different.

 

As an example, last night after working on primary obedience we worked on secondary/protection obedience. I used the e-collar and the decoy had a sleeve on a leash and was making some minor prey movements with the sleeve on the ground while I heeled around him. The dog was motivated to look at the decoy so I had to stim him to get an attentive heel and when he was heeling correctly I dropped or tossed the tug. The first few times he completely ignored the tug when released and in primary obedience he always explodes to get it when marked and released. It took several repetitions before he caught on that to get some satisfaction from his frustration to bite, his only option would be to bite the tug and he started to explode to get the tug when released making the tug a higher value and the decoy a lesser value in order to learn focused heeling when being goaded by a decoy. This is a very different approach from IGP where you tend to see the helper making prey movements with the sleeve to set up the dog to bite and even some helpers making prey movements with both their body and the sleeve. In PSA, the dog needs to have a strong motivation to bite without stimulating with prey and he needs to learn that only accurate, attentive heeling will get him a bite, first on a toy and then on a decoy.

 

Every IPO club I've ever trained with does that same basic drill Chip. The tug or toy will come down to the dog and whether its anything productive or not. Its only different because you want to say it is. Have fun.

 

The tug or the toy will come down to the dog when?