[Chip18]

Koehlers methods for behavior modification were harsh, but keep in mind that back then the options for an out of control dog were, well, death.

I don't doubt that! But most of us aren't dealing with "Red Zone" dogs, the closest most of us "family pet people" get is inter-pact aggression and "preferably" male v male! And in "some" cases you can throw Human aggression in the mix too!! I don't know if the HA is just a WL thing??

I would have happily used a "Dominate" dog collar on Rocky for the pack issues! Don't know if that would have been right or wrong but it is what I would have done!

But in as much as he has "Wobblers" that was not a viable option! The pack issue sadly resolved itself when Gunther passed due to "unrelated" issue.

That still had me dealing with the HA, thing and I solved that with my oft quoted "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" (the walk part ) Not really a dog rehab thing, but it made sense to me?? I keep people out of his face and he can't bite anyone!! Worked out fine, problem solved and I do that with all the dogs I work with! I don't "know" those dogs so "no one" gets in there face under my watch! The dogs I work with get that!

Many have been said to be pullers?? But with me they walk as well as my dogs! I only had an "issue" with one "fear of people" Boxer. On our tour of the park, he was fine, just like walking one of my own well trained dogs. I stopped and spoke to someone that asked about him, the dog was at my side I kept our distance and spoke.

Then the lady stepped forward and asked to pet him?? The dog pressed in close to me?? I looked down and his eyes were big as saucers! I held out my hand and said, "NO" he is in training and we went on our way.

His training methods are based on the fact that your dog has a right to know that his actions have consequences. He also stated quite clearly that any modification of his methods to make it 'nicer' would result in it being cruel and unjust. He talks about prongs in his book, and does advocate their use, but not as a first step.
I was mentored by a Koehler student, and while it does not work well for me the flaw is with me not the system. It is my go-to method for 'hard' or excessively resistant dogs. His method of teaching heel is my favorite and I routinely use his long line methods.
His methods are still widely used today, and no other method has had such success on so many dogs.

"Most" dogs sure, but I know the exceptions no one has the time and patience for "compulsion" with American line Boxers! They will simply shut down, training time is over!

The term "fold" like an umbrella comes to mind! I saw it once with my first Boxer mix and never did it again with any Boxer or derivative thereof! I got better and faster results with a more "moderate approach!" But...you can't be a one trick pony!

I believe that all tools are good tools. Dogs are not all the same, and some learn better a different way. But to dismiss something that has had so much success is just silly. The method has been tried and proven, repeatedly. Bill Koehler was an accomplished trainer with credits and credentials that would be tough to beat and the dogs he worked certainly were not cowering or fearful.

It was not my intent to throw "Koehler" under the bus! My questions were related to the long line thing to teach off leash walking! I thought it was on the site I listed, but it's gone now??

And I posted it anyway "my bad!" :blush:

But now it seems, the thread has a life of it's on??

 

[Sabis mom]

Chip, to the best of my recollection the long line is used as a foundation for the heel, among other things-door/gate rushing, etc. His point was that once your dog knows that behavior is unacceptable, it will be trustworthy of leash.

 

[Steve Strom]

The long line as the foundation of the whole program is mentioned here:

The Koehler Method of Dog Training, koehlerdogtraining.com First time users of the method

There are a few videos around of people using it, I don't know if they're good examples or not though as far as following the plan strictly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalYS93NDPc

 

[LouCastle]

Speiffically it was the long line method?? I thought it was on the site I linked but now I can't find it there??

I think that you're referring to the first step of the method. I'm sure that I don't have it down 100%, since it's been decades since I taught a dog with this method, but the idea of the long line is to put it on the dog and let him move away from you. When he looks away, the handler is to move quickly away from the dog such that when the leash pulls tight discomfort is applied. The dog learns that if he does not pay attention to the handler and when he moves, that discomfort follows.

It's the basis for what I do when I start recall training with the Ecollar, but I'm working at a much lower level of discomfort and with a type of discomfort that is (usually) completely foreign to the dog.

But in a nut shell it used a long line to train a dog to walk off leash. That is not what I did with Rocky or my Boxer Struddell.

I seem to remember that when the dog starts paying close attention to the trainer's movement that you graduate to a 6' leash. Since it's been so long ago, I may have forgotten some steps.

 

[RunShepherdRun]

This!

Say what you will about Koehler, but his approach to behavior modification was no nonsense and effective. This 'kinder, gentler approach that people now advocate often results in injuries to dogs and people and ultimately dogs get put down. Sometimes these dogs just need a 'come to Jesus' moment, with a handler that will make it happen.

Do you mean that dog bites and serious aggression started only when reward based methods became widely used? I wish that were so, we'd have an easy solution to aggression issues!

Unfortunately, there were plenty of 'injuries to dog and people' and dogs put down for aggression during the times when compulsion based training methods were the only way. I am old enough to know And I still see handlers of that style. They burn up a lot of dogs.

In both approaches, reward and compulsion based, there are good trainers and there are bad trainers, and most trainers are so so. And as you say, Sabi's mom, the handler is part of the equation. Dogs like clarity, and one can be clear in both approaches. If one is a good trainer... Still, at trial time you don't see the ones that washed out before.

There is no 'one way' or 'one fits all' approach to dealing with aggression. Each case needs its own approach, an open mind, and an open toolbox.

Jax, so sorry you got a bite and such a deep one that it became infected. I hope hope you'll heal quickly and that there will be consequences.

 

[onyx'girl]

Do you think that using "harsher corrective methods" on a dog will affect his progeny?

not so much 'him' but a bitch raising puppies...the bitch has been placed in a submissive state through the harsher handling which could cause anxiety, puppies feed off that and become somewhat anxious and not stable in temperament themselves. That is what my post was about.

 

[onyx'girl]

I was agreeing with Lou. Not the "Koehler" method. I thought that was clear in the blurb I quoted.

But yeah, a solid Come to Jesus moment at any point in the 3 yrs of this dog's life would have saved my leg. As well as a positive foundation based on focus and engagement, which you are not going to get with compulsion like you would the 'kinder, gentler approach'. And solid genetics. A dog that redirects on a person like that Dobe did on me just simply because I pulled my dog back is not stable and has no place on this earth.

There is no one single solution to a complicated issue.

solid genetics is key...a dog with solid nerves doesn't shut down with corrections as long as they are fair. Sadly too many dogs are being bred that have less than solid nerves.

 

[Chip18]

The long line as the foundation of the whole program is mentioned here:

The Koehler Method of Dog Training, koehlerdogtraining.com First time users of the method

There are a few videos around of people using it, I don't know if they're good examples or not though as far as following the plan strictly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalYS93NDPc

I think that you're referring to the first step of the method. I'm sure that I don't have it down 100%, since it's been decades since I taught a dog with this method, but the idea of the long line is to put it on the dog and let him move away from you. When he looks away, the handler is to move quickly away from the dog such that when the leash pulls tight discomfort is applied. The dog learns that if he does not pay attention to the handler and when he moves, that discomfort follows.

It's the basis for what I do when I start recall training with the Ecollar, but I'm working at a much lower level of discomfort and with a type of discomfort that is (usually) completely foreign to the dog.



I seem to remember that when the dog starts paying close attention to the trainer's movement that you graduate to a 6' leash. Since it's been so long ago, I may have forgotten some steps.

Thanks guys that explains it! I was confused in reading it! Most likely because I did not do anything like that...to my knowledge??
Yep that was my "actual" question now with a better of how it's suppose to work> I can look at it aginn (thanks for the links) and gain a better understand of the "long line thing" in particular!

 

[selzer]

I don't know how else you would do it, Lou, of course you step out of whatever dog class your are taking your dog to, and into the ring. Are you saying that one session with the Koehler method -- 45 minutes, and the dog could then get a qualifying score in novice obedience, which includes on lead, off lead, group sits and downs, finishes, heeling? I guess I do not get what else there is. I have taken a couple of my dogs to matches, but they are so few and far between, that most of my dogs have never been to a match. So what do most people do between dog classes and dog shows?

 

[gsdsar]

I have never read up on the method, though I "think" I understand the basics. And I think I have probably used some of the methods. The "throw chain" for one, when teaching a drop on recall. I am not adverse to tossing the leash at my dog when I say "Platz". Breaks the drive and they stop for a second and actually "hear" the "platz". That said, my aim sucks and I can't tell you a single time the leash actually made contact with my dog. LOL.

I have also used the "change of direction" to teach my dog they must be aware of where I am and what direction I am headed. It's a pretty fool proof way of teaching a loose leash walk and off leash hiking. But I intersperse, mainly on hikes, with hiding from the dog. They get too far ahead and I duck behind a tree. Boy oh boy, do they learn quick to keep their eye on me.

Not that either are strict Kohler method. But the theory is similar. And it's very effective.

 

[Chip18]

Well, this is certainly interesting for what I considered a throwaway thread?? I know I used a long line in the past.

Because well I have one! But I used it like a string on a kite...so the "item" on the other end won't get away! I kept all my dogs so it must have worked!

And I have found my "missing info" so thanks everyone!!

 

[Sabis mom]

Do you mean that dog bites and serious aggression started only when reward based methods became widely used? I wish that were so, we'd have an easy solution to aggression issues!
Not at all! I'm saying that sometimes it's time to stop saying will you please and start saying do it now.

Unfortunately, there were plenty of 'injuries to dog and people' and dogs put down for aggression during the times when compulsion based training methods were the only way. I am old enough to know And I still see handlers of that style. They burn up a lot of dogs.

Yes and as I said, Koehlers behavior modification may have been a bit harsh, but he saved an awful lot of dogs who's other option was death.
And bad trainers of any method are causing harm to dogs everyday. You should see some of the quacks who claim to use Lou Castles methods.

In both approaches, reward and compulsion based, there are good trainers and there are bad trainers, and most trainers are so so. And as you say, Sabi's mom, the handler is part of the equation. Dogs like clarity, and one can be clear in both approaches. If one is a good trainer... Still, at trial time you don't see the ones that washed out before.

There is no 'one way' or 'one fits all' approach to dealing with aggression. Each case needs its own approach, an open mind, and an open toolbox.

Exactly what I said, all tools are good. See, we do agree

Jax, so sorry you got a bite and such a deep one that it became infected. I hope hope you'll heal quickly and that there will be consequences.

It has always fascinated me that I can make someone else's dog behave but mine are spoiled beasts.

 

[LouCastle]

not so much 'him' but a bitch raising puppies...the bitch has been placed in a submissive state through the harsher handling which could cause anxiety, puppies feed off that and become somewhat anxious and not stable in temperament themselves. That is what my post was about.

I don't think that a nervous bitch will necessarily raise nervous puppies. I think that genetics will out.

 

[LouCastle]

I don't know how else you would do it, Lou, of course you step out of whatever dog class your are taking your dog to, and into the ring. Are you saying that one session with the Koehler method -- 45 minutes, and the dog could then get a qualifying score in novice obedience, which includes on lead, off lead, group sits and downs, finishes, heeling? I guess I do not get what else there is.

I'm talking about a full KMODT class, not just one session of that class.

I don't know of any other dog training method that will have graduates LITERALLY walking out the door and into an AKC match and qualifying at the level of the class. ALL others that I've ever seen require quite a bit more work before a qualifying score is possible. That's not the case with KMODT classes. Do you know of another method that allows this?

Again, what is it that "they say about Ecollars" that you find "interesting?"

 

[LouCastle]

I have never read up on the method, though I "think" I understand the basics. And I think I have probably used some of the methods. The "throw chain" for one, when teaching a drop on recall. I am not adverse to tossing the leash at my dog when I say "Platz". Breaks the drive and they stop for a second and actually "hear" the "platz". That said, my aim sucks and I can't tell you a single time the leash actually made contact with my dog. LOL.

To be completely accurate, one cannot use "some of the methods." Either one uses the KMODT, or one does not. One might say that they have used 'Koehler−like' methods but it's improper to say that one has used the method unless one has followed the protocols and schedules specified in it. It's a bit like saying you drove a truck that was 'like an F−150,' when in fact, it was a VW Microbus.

It's not necessary to hit the dog with the throw chain in the KMODT.

I have also used the "change of direction" to teach my dog they must be aware of where I am and what direction I am headed. It's a pretty fool proof way of teaching a loose leash walk and off leash hiking.

The KMODT specifies when, in the protocol to do this and how often to do it.

Not that either are strict Kohler method. But the theory is similar. And it's very effective.

One of the biggest differences between other methods and the KMODT is that most classes that people attend these days don't have a rigid schedule of training. The KMODT does, it's VERY structured! It specifies exactly what should be done, how it should be done, how many times on a given day of the training it should be done, and for how long it should be done in a given session. Before writing his books, Koehler trained over 10,000 dogs. I don't know of any other trainer that had that basis of experience before finalizing their methods. Does anyone know of such a trainer?

Contrary to those who say that no method works for every dog, Koehler said that EVERY dog can be trained with the KMODT. Those who still follow his methods agree.

 

[Sabis mom]

Contrary to those who say that no method works for every dog, Koehler said that EVERY dog can be trained with the KMODT. Those who still follow his methods agree.

Sadly it doesn't work for every person

I'm just not, by nature, that forceful. I can be and when it counts I am, but I'm really more the owner Koehler grumbled about.

 

[car2ner]

Honestly, it worked for my Ridgie mix. I got her at age two and had to learn quickly. She was smart and something in her mix toned down the ridgie stubbornness. It only took a couple of days for her to learn a new behavior and didn't need much correction once she figured out what I was asking for.

with my little whippet beagle mix...not a good training method.

 

[selzer]

I'm talking about a full KMODT class, not just one session of that class.

I don't know of any other dog training method that will have graduates LITERALLY walking out the door and into an AKC match and qualifying at the level of the class. ALL others that I've ever seen require quite a bit more work before a qualifying score is possible. That's not the case with KMODT classes. Do you know of another method that allows this?

Again, what is it that "they say about Ecollars" that you find "interesting?"

Lou, I got my hands slapped years ago for talking about e-collars with you, so I won't do it.

I have taken dogs through eight weeks of ordinary classes and at the end have qualified. It's not that difficult if you have a good dog, and take the dog each week. I rarely work with my dogs at all between classes -- yep, I am one of those owners.

Personally, I think that most training methods would work with any dog. The thing is most methods do not work with most handlers. Or, because of differences with their previous dog, the handler applies the same method, the same way to the different dog and it doesn't work, the method is not ok with this dog. But they don't give it a chance really because the dog is not acting the same way the previous dog did, and every method gets adjusted somewhat to the handler and what worked with the first dog. Good positive training works with all dogs. It just doesn't work with all handlers or all dog/handler combinations. And if someone approaches it with the opinion that it won't work, it won't. The problem is not in the dog, it is in the human.

I really do not know anything about purely positive or positive only training. I think that most people have some sort of negative marker to communicate effectively with a dog. I think good positive training includes the use of negative markers of some form, typically and EH! or No! when necessary, lack of praise and redo is also a method of letting the dog know he performed a task incorrectly.

I do not like the idea the the Koehler method has no room for improvising. I think good training assesses the dog, the handler and finds the best combination of methods to get from point A to point B with the dog. I have a passel of dogs, I have put a dozen or more through titles and some with multiple titles. I do not train them like robots. They are individuals, and I adjust my training to get the best results out of each dog. That is practically impossible to advise someone over the internet when they are having a problem. This is why, find a good trainer is generally a good answer. A trainer can observe the dog and the owner and the interaction between both. Why teach a limp bit of spaghetti to jerk her dog properly and bark commands and corrections with force that is totally unnatural to her, when you can see she has the patience of Job, and can probably do better with follow through and persisitence, consistency, etc.?

It really doesn't help though, that people don't seem to consider training, or can't seem to justify/come up with the money to start training until the dog is exhibiting serious issues. Some of those might make progress with methods that take time and patience and persistence, but unfortunately, by the time some people go the trainer route, it's a last ditch effort before the dog is put down, and there is no time for the dog to progress at a reasonable rate. And, unfortunately, too many of these owners are half-accepting of the ultimate demise of the dog if this doesn't work, and are less than half-believing that it will.

And so we have dogs that have bitten three separate people and the judge feels the dog needs a new owner, the dog needs training, the training to remove bad habits and inappropriate reactions may be less comfortable for everyone once you have a dog that will bite.

Ah well, too many dogs fall into the hands of people who would be better served owning a pet rock. And nothing will change that. I will say that when I get a dog back, I treat them like all my other dogs, give them some time, then take them to classes. I don't use correction collars on them, negative markers are tone of voice, and rewards are generally praise and I get very good results. Maybe I have just not yet worked with a dog with a very bad temperament yet.

 

[LouCastle]

Lou, I got my hands slapped years ago for talking about e-collars with you, so I won't do it.

OK, but I don't recall the discussion but I doubt that it was merely "talking about Ecollars with [me]." I've "gotten my hands slapped" quite a few times. It doesn't stop my discussions, I just temper my comments.

I have taken dogs through eight weeks of ordinary classes and at the end have qualified. It's not that difficult if you have a good dog, and take the dog each week.

You've missed the point. You are a very experienced trainer so it's easy to accept that you've done this. My point is that ANYONE in a KMODT class who graduates can qualify in the appropriate AKC competition, including novice trainers. That IS NOT THE CASE with other dog training methods.

Personally, I think that most training methods would work with any dog.

I think that there are MANY dogs that will not respond to the so−called "kinder gentler methods" reliably. It's not just a matter of those methods being applied improperly, it's a matter of the drive levels of those dogs being too high. As was pointed out OVER 50 YEARS AGO by The Brelands in "The Misbehavior of Organisms" (a not-so-subtle poke at Skinner's tome, "The Behavior of Organisms").

"These egregious failures came as a rather considerable shock to us, for there was nothing in our background in behaviorism to prepare us for such gross inabilities to predict and control the behavior of animals with which we had been working for years.

"The examples listed we feel represent a clear and utter failure of conditioning theory. They are far from what one would normally expect on the basis of the theory alone. Furthermore, they are definite, observable; the diagnosis of theory failure does not depend on subtle statistical interpretations or on semantic legerdemain – the animal simply does not do what he has been conditioned to do.

"... Here we have animals, after having been conditioned to a specific learned response, gradually drifting into behaviors that are entirely different from those which were conditioned. ...
"It seems obvious that these animals are trapped by strong instinctive behaviors, and clearly we have here a demonstration of the prepotency of such behavior patterns over those which have been conditioned.

"... The general principle seems to be that wherever an animal has strong instinctive behaviors in the area of the conditioned response, after continued running the organism will drift toward the instinctive behavior to the detriment of the conditioned behavior and even to the delay or preclusion of the reinforcement. In a very boiled-down, simplified form, it might be stated as 'learned behavior drifts toward instinctive behavior.' " ​

The Brelands were certainly experts in the use and application of these methods on many species of animals. Yet there was NOTHING they could do to stop this "drift."

Yes, of course there are many 'experts' out there training highly driven dogs who have not experienced these events but your statement claimed that "most training methods would work with any dog."

The thing is most methods do not work with most handlers.

I agree that there is no shortage of handlers who have an ethos that causes them problems with some methods. But as far as I'm concerned the goal of training is not to get parlor tricks or a dog that is reliable in the kitchen, the living room, or the back yard. It's to get reliability in the face of commonly occurring distractions. Relatively few of those espousing the so−called "kinder gentler methods" achieve this. For years I travelled across the US looking for trainers who could actually do what they claimed with those methods. I WANTED them to work. I WANTED them to give the same degree of reliability as methods that I'd been trained with. I never found such a trainer who could do it with any but a small number of carefully selected dogs. They couldn't do it with "any dog." The darling of the positive crowd, the woman who popularized the movement for dogs, Karen Pryor, killed her own cat because she could not train it to stop doing something unpleasant, urinating on the stove burners. Perhaps that trainer who can get reliability with "any dog" is out there and I missed him!?

Good positive training works with all dogs.

The Brelands disagree with this statement and so do I (as long as we're talking about reliability in the face of distractions).

It just doesn't work with all handlers or all dog/handler combinations. And if someone approaches it with the opinion that it won't work, it won't. The problem is not in the dog, it is in the human.

While the problem MAY LIE with the human, often the issue is with dogs that are just too highly driven to stop their instinctive behavior in favor of the conditioned behavior.

I really do not know anything about purely positive or positive only training.

I know enough to know that there is no such thing as "purely positive or positive only training." It's a myth, a lie, a bill of goods literally sold to an unsuspecting public who wants to believe in magic. It's nothing but clever marketing.

I think that most people have some sort of negative marker to communicate effectively with a dog.

 

[selzer]

OK, but I don't recall the discussion but I doubt that it was merely "talking about Ecollars with [me]." I've "gotten my hands slapped" quite a few times. It doesn't stop my discussions, I just temper my comments.

You do not remember it because I did not break any rules. I did not swear. I did not call you names. No personal attacks. Maybe they smacked you and decided they better smack me too to be fair. No idea as they don't generally tell you if they warned the other party. Whatever. E-collars are your thing. They aren't mine so I stopped visiting the training threads and let it be. Didn't have a dog in that fight -- I chose not to battle over it.

I think we are not far from the same page. I would rather someone use a method that produces a dog that isn't going to give the breed a bad name if the alternative is someone who can't follow through, can't be consistent, can't control their dog because they are simply unable to apply other methods.