It's the "old fashioned,old school" training method.It involves a choke chain training collar and corrections to teach the dog what not to do.An oversimplification I admit.

 

LOL! They use the term "throw chain" instead of "choke chain" or "choker."

Yes, the method has been around forever, and most of us who have been around awhile have deliberately or inadvertently use the methods. They do work.

Just because something has been around forever and gives results, does not mean there aren't better overall methods for training dogs.

Dog training works when the communication is effective. If the dog understands that what he just did was what you want, he is likely to repeat it. Communication includes timing, praise, reward, body language. A lot of dog training is training/disciplining the handler. If you can make your body do the same routine, the dog is going to learn much quicker. If you can make your body language work to cause a dog to naturally perform the desired trait, training becomes much easier.

For example, raising the treat up above the dog's head so that to follow it, his hind quarters must go down, and the sit is accomplished. That movement of your hand becomes the sign for sit, and it is close to natural -- this is not the Koehler method.

The Koehler Method works because it is repetitious and consistent. The idea of repeating something 25x every night is ridiculous though.

I just think there are better ways to bond with your dog and teach him what is expected. Choke chains have their place. I have used them in shows where corrections are not allowed. Once the dog is trained, a martingale or a choke chain can be interchangeable. Training a dog with a choke can cause damage...

Interesting what they say about e-collars.

 

LOL! They use the term "throw chain" instead of "choke chain" or "choker."

Yes, the method has been around forever, and most of us who have been around awhile have deliberately or inadvertently use the methods. They do work.

Actually there is no such things as "the methods." You are either using ALL of the KMODT, that is using the tools, and following the protocols and schedules, or you are not using it. There is no in−between. In fact, the Koehlers made it a point to stop those professional trainers who claimed that they were using the KMODT, but who were not adhering to the schedules, to stop making that claim.

The Koehler Method works because it is repetitious and consistent. The idea of repeating something 25x every night is ridiculous though.

One can literally walk out of a KMODT class and into an AKC competition (of the appropriate level) and qualify. I don't know of any other school of dog training that gives that. Is there one?

Bill Koehler trained thousands of dogs while developing his method. It remains unchanged today, decades later, and still produces many competition OB champions.

Interesting what they say about e-collars.

What do they say that you find "interesting?"

 

The Koehler method is compulsion based training.

A throw chain isn't a collar. Its literally a piece of chain (like a wadded up training collar) that you throw at a dog to "reinforce" your command.

Koehler also advocated hanging a dog by the leash for noncompliance or fighting back. And yeah, hanging means just that.

 

Koehlers methods for behavior modification were harsh, but keep in mind that back then the options for an out of control dog were, well, death.

His training methods are based on the fact that your dog has a right to know that his actions have consequences. He also stated quite clearly that any modification of his methods to make it 'nicer' would result in it being cruel and unjust. He talks about prongs in his book, and does advocate their use, but not as a first step.
I was mentored by a Koehler student, and while it does not work well for me the flaw is with me not the system. It is my go to method for 'hard' or excessively resistant dogs. His method of teaching heel is my favorite and I routinely use his long line methods.
His methods are still widely used today, and no other method has had such success on so many dogs.

I believe that all tools are good tools. Dogs are not all the same, and some learn better a different way. But to dismiss something that has had so much success is just silly. The method has been tried and proven, repeatedly. Bill Koehler was an accomplished trainer with credits and credentials that would be tough to beat and the dogs he worked certainly were not cowering or fearful.

 

They do use choke chains though. I couldn't find mention of one on the site, only the throw chain.

I know they used to choke a dog out on a choke chain, seriously until the dog passes out.

Of course when the prong collar people tested dogs to see which causes more damage, if they were choking dogs out with the choke chains, yeah that's going to cause all kinds of damage. Jerking action on the choke chain can throw a dog out of alignment, and yeah, it is compulsion, but as codmaster always seemed to say, you compel a dog in positive training as well. Holding a treat over the dog's head compels the dog to sit his butt on the ground, if he is food motivated.

But I understand what you mean by compulsion.

 

I know they used to choke a dog out on a choke chain, seriously until the dog passes out.

Yes for serious attacks on the handler.

Of course when the prong collar people tested dogs to see which causes more damage, if they were choking dogs out with the choke chains, yeah that's going to cause all kinds of damage.

When a dog comes at me with murderous intent, I'm more interested in protecting myself than in preventing damage to that dog. The few times that it needs to be done to a given dog is not going to cause any serious damage. As with anything, if it's used too often or improperly, problems will result.

 

were the dogs harder then, that those harsher corrective measures were necessary? Or did those methods soften the dogs to make them submissive so we see it in generations later....I know the training methods of the past were not what the AR's would ever approve of. I remember Clover's obedience class handout suggested hitting the dog with a newspaper if the dog pottied in the house. That was early '90's and they also said to rub the nose in it after the newspaper hit....lol, this was the local dog training club with many people training this way. Make the dog submit to the alpha, and don't engage the dog in tug because that will make a dog aggressive...blah, blah blah.

Makes me wonder if nerves were compromised by certain unnecessary methods of training, and then the dogs bred had the pups feed off that anxiety which after a generation or two of those training methods made them a bit on edge/showing in the progeny.

 

were the dogs harder then, that those harsher corrective measures were necessary? Or did those methods soften the dogs to make them submissive so we see it in generations later....

Do you think that using "harsher corrective methods" on a dog will affect his progeny?

 

I think too many of the positive trainers are just permissive and dogs are really wigged out because they can't feel any confidence in their owners. It is too darn bad that dogs would be happier in a compulsive but consistent situation, than in a positive but permissive situation. Dogs maybe are worse, but too many people just do not know how to act around a dog much less raise a puppy.

 

He's old school. Nothing wrong with that per se but I prefer prongs and e collars to chokes and using more guidance in the form of negative reinforcement before I start anything more punitive. Lots of good stuff still to be gleaned from the guy, but theres stuff out there with more finesse and tact.

 

Aww finesse and tact! Works with Boxers and works with GSD's!

Pretty sure koehler is the origin of the K9 trainer that once said "he can train 3 GSD's in the time it takes to train one Boxer!"

As I find Boxers amazingly easy to work with (the males) anyway, the girls...well as the sung goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

Yeah I went there! Boxer thing! :laugh:

I'll try again found another site "off leash training."

 

Chip, I'm neither a Koehler advocate, nor do I use the Koehler Method of Dog Training (KMODT), but I am familiar with the method and I am friends with Tony Ancheta, the trainer whose site you linked to. What is it that you "can't understand" about it?

 

Speiffically it was the long line method?? I thought it was on the site I linked but now I can't find it there??

But in a nut shell it used a long line to train a dog to walk off leash. That is not what I did with Rocky or my Boxer Struddell.

The difference is that I trust Rocky off leash everywhere. My Boxer I only "trusted" in the field! Logically that made no sense, they were both trained the same way? She never gave any indication that walking around the neighbor off leash would be a problem??

Logically that made no sense?? My GSD I would trust with my life! My Boxer...yeah not so much! :blush:

And that makes no sense either as Boxers were also dogs of war! Of course those were the Euro/German Boxers! The American lines...yeah not so much!

But my neighborhood is not a "war zone" so my differentiation between the two, made no sense??

I guess maybe it's as simple as "Pro's" know how there dogs will behave and "pet people" even the goods one "assume" how there dogs will behave?? Don't know??

 

Chip, to the best of my recollection the long line is used as a foundation for the heel, among other things-door/gate rushing, etc. His point was that once your dog knows that behavior is unacceptable, it will be trustworthy of leash.

 

The long line as the foundation of the whole program is mentioned here:

The Koehler Method of Dog Training, koehlerdogtraining.com First time users of the method

There are a few videos around of people using it, I don't know if they're good examples or not though as far as following the plan strictly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalYS93NDPc

 

I think that you're referring to the first step of the method. I'm sure that I don't have it down 100%, since it's been decades since I taught a dog with this method, but the idea of the long line is to put it on the dog and let him move away from you. When he looks away, the handler is to move quickly away from the dog such that when the leash pulls tight discomfort is applied. The dog learns that if he does not pay attention to the handler and when he moves, that discomfort follows.

It's the basis for what I do when I start recall training with the Ecollar, but I'm working at a much lower level of discomfort and with a type of discomfort that is (usually) completely foreign to the dog.



I seem to remember that when the dog starts paying close attention to the trainer's movement that you graduate to a 6' leash. Since it's been so long ago, I may have forgotten some steps.

Thanks guys that explains it! I was confused in reading it! Most likely because I did not do anything like that...to my knowledge??
Yep that was my "actual" question now with a better of how it's suppose to work> I can look at it aginn (thanks for the links) and gain a better understand of the "long line thing" in particular!

 

I don't know how else you would do it, Lou, of course you step out of whatever dog class your are taking your dog to, and into the ring. Are you saying that one session with the Koehler method -- 45 minutes, and the dog could then get a qualifying score in novice obedience, which includes on lead, off lead, group sits and downs, finishes, heeling? I guess I do not get what else there is. I have taken a couple of my dogs to matches, but they are so few and far between, that most of my dogs have never been to a match. So what do most people do between dog classes and dog shows?

 

I don't know how else you would do it, Lou, of course you step out of whatever dog class your are taking your dog to, and into the ring. Are you saying that one session with the Koehler method -- 45 minutes, and the dog could then get a qualifying score in novice obedience, which includes on lead, off lead, group sits and downs, finishes, heeling? I guess I do not get what else there is.

I'm talking about a full KMODT class, not just one session of that class.

I don't know of any other dog training method that will have graduates LITERALLY walking out the door and into an AKC match and qualifying at the level of the class. ALL others that I've ever seen require quite a bit more work before a qualifying score is possible. That's not the case with KMODT classes. Do you know of another method that allows this?

Again, what is it that "they say about Ecollars" that you find "interesting?"

 

I have never read up on the method, though I "think" I understand the basics. And I think I have probably used some of the methods. The "throw chain" for one, when teaching a drop on recall. I am not adverse to tossing the leash at my dog when I say "Platz". Breaks the drive and they stop for a second and actually "hear" the "platz". That said, my aim sucks and I can't tell you a single time the leash actually made contact with my dog. LOL.

I have also used the "change of direction" to teach my dog they must be aware of where I am and what direction I am headed. It's a pretty fool proof way of teaching a loose leash walk and off leash hiking. But I intersperse, mainly on hikes, with hiding from the dog. They get too far ahead and I duck behind a tree. Boy oh boy, do they learn quick to keep their eye on me.

Not that either are strict Kohler method. But the theory is similar. And it's very effective.

 

I have never read up on the method, though I "think" I understand the basics. And I think I have probably used some of the methods. The "throw chain" for one, when teaching a drop on recall. I am not adverse to tossing the leash at my dog when I say "Platz". Breaks the drive and they stop for a second and actually "hear" the "platz". That said, my aim sucks and I can't tell you a single time the leash actually made contact with my dog. LOL.

To be completely accurate, one cannot use "some of the methods." Either one uses the KMODT, or one does not. One might say that they have used 'Koehler−like' methods but it's improper to say that one has used the method unless one has followed the protocols and schedules specified in it. It's a bit like saying you drove a truck that was 'like an F−150,' when in fact, it was a VW Microbus.

It's not necessary to hit the dog with the throw chain in the KMODT.

I have also used the "change of direction" to teach my dog they must be aware of where I am and what direction I am headed. It's a pretty fool proof way of teaching a loose leash walk and off leash hiking.

The KMODT specifies when, in the protocol to do this and how often to do it.

Not that either are strict Kohler method. But the theory is similar. And it's very effective.

One of the biggest differences between other methods and the KMODT is that most classes that people attend these days don't have a rigid schedule of training. The KMODT does, it's VERY structured! It specifies exactly what should be done, how it should be done, how many times on a given day of the training it should be done, and for how long it should be done in a given session. Before writing his books, Koehler trained over 10,000 dogs. I don't know of any other trainer that had that basis of experience before finalizing their methods. Does anyone know of such a trainer?

Contrary to those who say that no method works for every dog, Koehler said that EVERY dog can be trained with the KMODT. Those who still follow his methods agree.

 

Well, this is certainly interesting for what I considered a throwaway thread?? I know I used a long line in the past.

Because well I have one! But I used it like a string on a kite...so the "item" on the other end won't get away! I kept all my dogs so it must have worked!

And I have found my "missing info" so thanks everyone!!

 

Honestly, it worked for my Ridgie mix. I got her at age two and had to learn quickly. She was smart and something in her mix toned down the ridgie stubbornness. It only took a couple of days for her to learn a new behavior and didn't need much correction once she figured out what I was asking for.

with my little whippet beagle mix...not a good training method.

 

With any training method, what I try to remember is what relationship I want with my dog. There are people out there still who want a forced retrieve because it looks good. The training is harsh and to me it isn't worth it. I have from time to time come across Kohler's book in thrift shops. I've been tempted to buy it to remove it from circulation.

When I visited my favorite trainer after an absense (MS doesn't like any way I spell that) of several years, he had changed his methods drastically. What he had to say about the change was that if you never changed, you weren't open to learning anything new.

 

With any training method, what I try to remember is what relationship I want with my dog.

Lots of people go to this place when the topic of the KMODT comes up. The fact is that when applied as designed, the method gives an EXCELLENT relationship with ANY dog. The problem comes, as it will with any tool or method, when it's not applied properly. I'd bet that you've never trained a dog with the KMODT, that you've just listened to the myths, and/or have only applied a small part of it.

There are people out there still who want a forced retrieve because it looks good. The training is harsh and to me it isn't worth it.

Applying human standards to what is and isn't harsh, often leads down the wrong road. I know dogs that become aggressive and will bite, if a treat is withheld. Is that harsh? Fido seems to think so. Yet it's a staple of the "kinder and gentler" folks. The fact is, that those competitors who use a forced retrieve do so not merely because "it looks good" but because it brings great reliability. If the dogs thought it was harsh, I think it would show in the work. Yet, when done properly, it does not. The dogs look eager and energetic.

I have from time to time come across Kohler's book in thrift shops. I've been tempted to buy it to remove it from circulation.

LOL. It's one of the highest circulating dog training books in the world, and there are several books. From Amazon,

One of the most popular books on dog training ever published. This book has been the choice of thousands seeking expert instruction in dog training since it first appeared in 1962. The Koehler Method has gone through 38 printings and has sold over 475,000 copies.

The Koehler Method of Dog Training: William R. Koehler, R.T. Yankie: 9780876055779: Amazon.com: Books

Buy all you want, they'll print more.

When I visited my favorite trainer after an absense (MS doesn't like any way I spell that) of several years, he had changed his methods drastically. What he had to say about the change was that if you never changed, you weren't open to learning anything new.

There are several reasons that a dog trainer may change his methods. The best is that he comes up with a better way to teach/train something. It may be that it's a better way to get a point across to the owner or to the dog. Sometimes it because better marketing may increase sales. But since few trainers, and I'd bet that yours is in this group, have BEFORE THEY FINALIZED THEIR METHODS, have trained over 10,000 dogs, it's not unusual that many of them change their minds as often as they change their underwear. I've only worked with several thousand dogs so I'm still refining my techniques. Probably, when and if I ever get to 10,000 (doubtful since I've slowed down quite a bit, and never was a commercial trainer) I'll have pretty much settled on my methods.

 

I am certainly no expert, but when my 1.5 yr. old decides he wants to break a 15-minute down and I have repeated the command, I use what I learned yrs. ago in a Koehler class. Don't talk, just correct. On my hardwood floors, I whip him around by leash and down him.

Getting my guy to heal worked as long as I kept feeding him, food goes away, he forged ahead even on prong. Used Koehler's methods, I have a dog that heels.

Reliability was/is a big factor in using Koehler's methods. We know soooo much more today and have better tools. But I have to say, when my guy says with his behavior that he doesn't care about the treat and he doesn't have to listen, Koehler is effective and clear.

 

Most people on here are pet people, meaning your dogs are pets. Basically all you need is a dog that comes, sits, downs, heels when told. He does not have to be in drive or look flashy, he just has to do it reliably.
There is no better way to do this then with pressure. It's fast and reliable.
I do pet dogs in about 6 or 7 sessions with owners doing some homework. That's for full obedience off leash.

These places that promote positive training for pets are doing this out of ignorance or the love of having clients with perpetually unfinished dogs that need to keep coming back and spending money.
If you are serious about having an obedient trustworthy dog then do yourself a favor and avoid the flavour of the day training information. Go with what works and has worked for a thousand years.

Positive training is primarily good for teaching certain exercises in performance sport. That's when you need drive, flash, speed and precision.
Even my sport dogs have two separate commands trained separate ways.
Example Foose and heel very different taught very differently.

 

Lou, as you've been told numerous times, the board limits post to 1000 words German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner

I have your post as almost double that, as soon as a moderator in this forum gets back they will probably just cut off the entire last portion of your post....

 

MRL, in the past the forum software has prevented me from posting longer posts than this limit. This time it did not. If the software had done its job, I'd have either shortened it or broken it into several posts.

I think that such artificial limits are a poor choice, but it's not my forum so it's not my rules. I agree with the quotation sometimes attributed to Winston Churchill, "A good speech should be like a woman's skirt; long enough to cover the subject and short enough to create interest." It seems to me that if someone loses interest they'll stop reading and that's fine with me. Many people thank me privately for going into such detail in my posts.

But I understand that the forum has this rule and that apparently I violated it. I thought the post was fairly long but since the forum software did not stop me from submitting it, I figured that it was not over the limit. Apologies.

 

The Koehler Method of Dog Training
"This book differs from others in two ways: it openly acknowledges that not all dogs 'want to please', and that some are even viciously resentful of efforts to train them; and it takes the stand that these viciously resentful problem dogs, since they are bred and influenced by man, have a moral right to the training that may be necessary to rehabilitate them"

A direct quote, and the first paragraph of the introduction. A moral right? Does not sound to me like the 'yank and crank' trainer he is sometimes referred to as. He is also one of the few trainers to ever acknowledge that, say what we will, some dogs just have better things to do then listen.

 

Quote:
"Originally Posted by RunShepherdRun
Do you mean that dog bites and serious aggression started only when reward based methods became widely used? I wish that were so, we'd have an easy solution to aggression issues!
Sabi's Mom: Not at all! I'm saying that sometimes it's time to stop saying will you please and start saying do it now."

"Will you please" is not what primarily reward based trainers do. Very far off.

Quote:
"Run: Unfortunately, there were plenty of 'injuries to dog and people' and dogs put down for aggression during the times when compulsion based training methods were the only way. I am old enough to know And I still see handlers of that style. They burn up a lot of dogs.

Sabi's Mom: Yes and as I said, Koehlers behavior modification may have been a bit harsh, but he saved an awful lot of dogs who's other option was death."

a) How do you know? How does anyone know? There have been no studies comparing the long term results of Koehler's methods and that of less invasive methods to treat aggression. Without evidence based studies, neither side can conclusively claim to be better than the other. I don't see these studies coming either as science based trainers don't string up dogs for training purposes, not even for a study. And you'd need a huge number of cases to get meaningful results b/c you cannot control all confounding factors, and there are a huge number of them.

b) I personally do not trust a dog who has been 'treated' solely with aggression countered by aggression. It does not address the underlying issues such as fear or learned disrespect for humans. It likely makes them worse and you only put a lid on them.

c) Koehler & Co strung up dogs not only in defensive situations, they are also strung up in a punitive way as a training method.
I have evaluated countless shelter dogs and am quite familiar with what I need to do when a dog goes up the leash, a rare situation, btw, and you don't keep a dog up, you only get him away from you or your assistant. But that is very different from hanging a dog up for a transgression like digging holes (Vicky Hearne, an ardent Koehler disciple) or hanging him up until he passes out and being nice to him when he opens his eyes to 'treat' handler directed aggression.

d) There are many handlers who had their "come to Jesus moments" after overcorrecting a dog. What comes around, goes around.
And don't try that -ever- with a terrier!

Again, I have an open tool box. I teach a wanted behavior by shaping and luring first but will correct with the minimum necessary to get results if a dog doesn't perform the taught behavior under incrementally increased distraction. But you need to have taught the alternate behavior first.
'Purely positive' is a fiction that punitive trainers love as a straw figure to beat.

I have read Koehler's book and was appalled. And as a trainer who uses compulsion first, his approach compares poorly to Konrad Most who wrote and trained decades before him.

 

d) There are many handlers who had their "come to Jesus moments" after overcorrecting a dog. What comes around, goes around.
And don't try that -ever- with a terrier!

Again, I have an open tool box. I teach a wanted behavior by shaping and luring first but will correct with the minimum necessary to get results if a dog doesn't perform the taught behavior under incrementally increased distraction. 'Purely positive' is a fiction that punitive trainers love as a straw figure to beat.

These two paragraphs are so important.

IMO, when a dog is showing aggression, it's either genetic or they've ruled out flight and submission and think their only choice is fight.

In either of these situations, at the point that the dog is actively aggressive, it's highly likely the dog is not going to back down. Personally, I would take a step back. Bring the dog under his threshold and work on behavior modification.

Second, I don't ever want to train in a way other than teach by shaping and luring and then correcting if need be. And that correction could just simply be withholding the reward. Or it could be a form of compulsion.

But I don't ever want to train by strictly compulsion again. What a grand way to ruin a dog and break their spirit. That's my opinion. Not up for argument, just my opinion based on my how I trained my first dog.

And, as far as " 'Purely positive' is a fiction that punitive trainers love as a straw figure to beat. ", there are two sides to that. I don't think there is such a thing as "purely positive". But I see many people who think they are purely positive who use corrections without knowing it. Again, the correction could be withholding the reward. It's still a negative. Still a punishment. I think people get hung up on semantics without really thinking about what they are actually doing. Balance. It's all about balance.

 

Since I have neither done TKMODT or read the book I can't comment on it. But the folks who work with and can successfully rehab real "Red Zone Dog" are the ones I tend to listen to and follow.

My first "Red Zone" dog got me my first stitches. But that was caused by my breaking up a fight and doing that wrong!

So don't know if I'll ever use it I will get the book...and read it, I do collect books among other things.

And since there has been talk about this book getting hard to find and yep original copies are expensive and kinda hard to find, but it's still around:

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: The Koehler Method of Dog Training: Certified Techniques by Movieland's Most Experienced Dog Trainer by Koehler, William R. published by Howell Book House (1976) Hardcover

My self-appointed goal is providing useful information and although this thread has gone far beyond my original scope, I've found it very enlightening.

 

Since I have neither done TKMODT or read the book I can't comment on it. But the folks who work with and can successfully rehab real "Red Zone Dog" are the ones I tend to listen to and follow.

My first "Red Zone" dog got me my first stitches. But that was caused by my breaking up a fight and doing that wrong!

So don't know if I'll ever use it I will get the book...and read it, I do collect books among other things.

And since there has been talk about this book getting hard to find and yep original copies are expensive and kinda hard to find, but it's still around:

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: The Koehler Method of Dog Training: Certified Techniques by Movieland's Most Experienced Dog Trainer by Koehler, William R. published by Howell Book House (1976) Hardcover

My self-appointed goal is providing useful information and although this thread has gone far beyond my original scope, I've found it very enlightening.

I have a vast collection of books, all of Koehlers among them. I do not listen to books, I read them. All of Koehlers books I scored at used book stores, where they still sell for a pretty good price.

 

I got the book on Kindle. A certified instructor is still teaching in my area and a lot of GSDs that have titled in AKC obedience have taken her class. Her class is heavy with GSD from what I can tell.

 

On Kindle?? I"ll look into that thanks!

And I have to say after looking at a couple of other sites, I find it pretty interesting in that TKMODT seems to be misunderstood by, well pretty much everyone!

I can relate it best to Home Audio. Among Audiophiles, Bose is considered well crap! Nonetheless the Model 901's have been in production for more than 45 years! And are still made today.

They have expanded in a different direction, but 901's are what put them on the map. Bose does not publish frequency range numbers?? Well, audiophiles love numbers, Bose does not give them, hence the 901's must suck!

In audiophile world "everybody" has an "opinion on 901's and how much they "must" suck! I had held that same view and freely shared it! :crazy:

Every now and then someone would ask have you heard them?? Most of the time the answer was uh "NO" but I know they suck because....

Times change, people change and today some of us are discovering we "may" have been...well not correct. Some may still not like them, but they suck appears to have been a bit much!

That is a rather round about way of saying. if something has been around for more than a decade or two?? There may be something there??

 

Chip,I am an audiophile.Our goal is for the music to be reproduced in our homes exactly as it sounded in the studio or venue where it was recorded.Bose is not capable of that.It's like comparing various breeds of dogs,they were bred and developed for radically different purposes.
End of thread hijackPM me any audio geeks,maybe we'll start a new thread?

 

Chip,I am an audiophile.Our goal is for the music to be reproduced in our homes exactly as it sounded in the studio or venue where it was recorded.Bose is not capable of that.It's like comparing various breeds of dogs,they were bred and developed for radically different purposes.
End of thread hijackPM me any audio geeks ,maybe we'll start a new thread?

Well this a surprise!! This is where the "action" is. I'll PM you the "901" link.

AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums - Powered by vBulletin
(Hey they have rules too! )

 

And I have to say after looking at a couple of other sites, I find it pretty interesting in that TKMODT seems to be misunderstood by, well pretty much everyone!

I always get the idea there's some misunderstanding with it because the actual method is the way its ordered from beginning to end. People always seem to know some of the different techniques because they're used by a lot of trainers and obedience clubs in their own ways.

 

Yes what I'm seeing is a lot of repetition and structure??

Piled in with a lot of misconceptions??

 

Speaking of "achievements." In some types of competition trainers using the KMODT and other balanced methods rather consistently beat trainers who use other methods. When and if this reverses, I have little doubt that they'll change their methods. But until then ...

Just because something is newer, doesn't mean it's better.

 

Well that is certainly true in Stereo World!

But back on point, having actually gained "some" actual understanding of the KMODT and having still not read the book.

I think "structure" and "repetition" is the key?? Being as how I am "kinda" like my "Boxers" "structure" and "repetition" does not sound like a whole lotta fun??

Now if you have a dog with real issues yeah time to get real as it were but does, KMODT work with "100% American Line Goofy??"