[Whiteshepherds]

German show dogs. There is something VERY wrong happening there. The idea that those dogs are put on display, for the world to see, is simply shocking to me.

Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?

 

[MicheleMarie]

yes lets not become twisted (a little late for some I think) -- the op likes asl dogs, we should be helping them , by providing the best information we have, the best way to find responsible breeders. Again of course this has become something of a my lines are the best and there is no merit to any other line post. Every day I read the same crap , it all reads blah blah blah to me. I am not knowledgeable as some so please tell me , when was schautzund (sp) started , what year ? Does the breed standard say a GSD must bite a sleeve, or be ok getting hit with a stick to be deemed worthy? please help me to understand. Is the op ready for the crazyness of some wl dog? How about letting them know what the downsides are with the wl dogs , come on there must be some downfalls with the "perfect" gsd line. LOL LOL----

yes. every single german shepherd dog should be able to get titled in Schutzhund 1. That IS the breed standard. Dogs in Germany no matter what lines they have are not eligible to breed until that is completed (plus many other things).
I don't think there is a "perfect" line and i think you can get crazies on both sides. I do know a girl that got a ASL dog from a place i looked at when i was looking around for a breeder. I opted not to go with them just because i didn't like the people. i later discovered WL dogs and breeders invited me to their clubs-i was hooked! i ended up getting a wgwl dog. my dog is stable, temperpent IS perfect, he has an off switch and he's easy to handle. the girl that got the puppy from the other place's is absolutely insane. is it the breeders fault? maybe but it could also be her fault. there are WAY too many factors in here.

 

[MicheleMarie]

Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?

**shutters** ugh i hate those. it makes my back hurt lol

this is a great video:

 

[MicheleMarie]

2010 SV BSZS NKGR part 8 Remo von Fichtenschlag HD - YouTube


Speaking of appearances.......this is a video of the 2011 VA 1 dog's progeny. This is in 2010. I personally, find these dogs to be simply grotesque. The structure and movement is so disturbing, it makes me wonder what they are putting in the beer at that event, ( because alcohol would not be enough). You'd have to be more than just drunk to applaud for these dogs or their sire.

eek. i could only watch about 5 seconds-it hurt my eyes :/

for showlines i DO like the appearance of ASL dogs way better too.

 

[carmspack]

Ok since there seems to be so much more respect for the German idea that only dogs with titles, good hips etc are bred and the controls they have there, then why is it that the police have announced that they will no longer use German Shepherds in Germany but Belgian Shepherds, Malinois variety. A breed that has never had these requirements??

xxxx very good questions. The SV seems to have done everything in its power, since the administration of the Martin stronghold to alienate and diminish the efforts of working lines , unless it is to sit on the coat tails and benefit from the positive press , the legend , the back history.
Regard the BSZS , a jugernaut for tourism , and income from exporting dogs , which has separated itself from BSP , giving little attention , promotion and even different dates and location for the main yearly national working trials, and offended the IDM police trial participants , "the police dogs" which bring renown to the breed even worse situtations.
There are articles from the director of the Nordrhein-Westfalen State Police which address the difficulties in getting good dogs for police service in numbers , precisely because the majority of breeders are showline , and they do not focus on work . That is why. The GSD is bred to market dictates, a black and red dog . The popularity is killing it .
The malinois is not saddled with a seemingly unending market place that will take anything as well as .... I've had those calls and letters , black and red , may be superficial , but want black and red even at the expense of temperament (which they think they insert and provide) .
But the malinois had other issues which are based on the cosmetics of coat type and colour , right back to the day of von Stephanitz and well discussed in his tome.
Belgian dogs trial under KNPV.

---------------------------------------------
And when people are thrilled with DDR and Czech dogs and their work ethic, lets explain that they were the communist dogs, bred away from any herding ideals but used to attack people for real that tried to escape the countries. And perhaps these harder dogs who have been bred for generations to bite people may actually cause the breed to have a bad name when in the wrong hands..

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx well yes and no . There are many references to mass importation of a "certain" type of dog going - east , Russia way . You have to remember that the map of europe has been redrawn several times. Part of "east" were parts of Germany , parts of the great Austro-Hungarian empire, Bohemia etc. All these different regions clung on to their particular habits and preferences and needs of utility in the type of herding that they had. There was more than one method depending on whether near urban areas , pre and post harvest, or whether used in part of the great yearly migrations into better pasture "transhumance" . All the regional types were permitted to merge as long as the PURPOSE , function , work needs were the same . This is why we get the occasional wiry coat, the occasional wavy coat, difference in head , bone , working style within the breed . Some drove, some contained, some protected .
It 's all well documented in the von Stephanitz book.
Page 165 which is a continuation of a list of dogs going to Finland, Russia , including Poland the demand for the dogs was considerable even before the War. The book was published 1925 , so we are talking pre 1914 . "They were imported into Russia in large numbers as SERVICE dogs, and "the Imperial Hunting Society regulated the Exhibitions " "In Finland, they have recently begun to employ the German shepherds dog in Police Service . The two Police dog Societies of Sweden "The Swedish Police and Protection dog Society ( Svenska Polis-och-Skyddhundsforingen), ...... "the Society of Swedish Protection and Red Cross dogs" .... at Stockholm will use none but our dogs in their service.
So far as shepherd dgos may be used with the sheep in Switzerland, most of these have been imported from Wurtemburg ......... etc etc.

Right from the outset dogs of a particular type were selected to serve in these countries as service and police dogs. There are within the four pillar regions (Swabian) a strain whose specialty was protection - hunt .
So the dogs going into these countries were not bred away from herding , they already served a different function right from the beginning .
The GSD is a very complicated collection of genetics.
This is why I have often said that the Czech dogs definitely serve a purpose , character, hardness in confrontation that are valuable attributes. I would not categorize them in the "genetic obedience" vein as we have been discussing in herding dogs .
They are not communist . Dogs don't hold cards to political parties.
They continue to be what they were , without as much interference for mass market and pet appeal -- until recently . Hope it does not spoil things.

---------------------------
large portion left out for someone else to address

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Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

[carmspack]

Vandal that was horrible . Those dogs can't put their head down to track, their hind feet would be in the air.
I saw the bitches youtubey #2 and #3 you could see the panic in the running away --- legs going so fast like little egg beaters , could be put into a vat of cream and soon you would have frothy whippped cream.
the emporer is naked .

 

[carmspack]

I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS

watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!!
Far cry from now.

The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".

Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
Now they do little or almost nothing.

THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

[MicheleMarie]

I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS

watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!!
Far cry from now.

The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".

Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
Now they do little or almost nothing.

THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

that was great carmen <3 ill have to look that up as well, thanks!

 

[Freestep]

Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?

The way it was explained to me--and this may be a load of horse puckey for all I know--is that a dog's back tends naturally to sag over time. Having a slight arch to the back is more structurally sound because it mitigates this sagging as the dog ages. So even though it might look weird to most people, it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any problems, and in fact helps the dog's structure stand up over time.

I am not sure if I buy that, but it's what I was told. To me, the roach back is not appealing and it seems artificial--if it doesn't hurt that dog, however, I can't say it's the worst thing. Whether it benefits the dogs remains to be seen, I suppose. How long do these roach-backed dogs live, and what is their working lifespan? What do they look like when they get older? Do they have skeletal problems related to the arched back? What I'd really love to see is a lineup of 10 year old dogs that had roached backs when they were 2.

 

[Jack's Dad]

The dogs in the video Vandal posted are working. They are working very hard to keep their ass off the ground. Sad that that is admired and bred for.

 

[PaddyD]

Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?

WHAT!? Someone agrees with me?
Somewhere, somehow there is some strange shi+ happening.

 

[horsegirl]

You are the one who said you didn't need to see because you were in USA...

see what?

 

[horsegirl]

I guess the answer to Trudy is....the show ring is about the worst thing that can happen to any breed. Used to be that judge had the pedigree because, in Germany, he was there to guide the breeders and steer the breed in the right direction. Now, maybe that pedigree is more a political guide. The whole thing has been turned on it's head because people seem to get stuck on appearances. They want things to look a certain way when the reality is a completely different story. It is the same in SchH now where dogs "look" like they will protect when they won't at all. It's the Hollywood factor I guess.

I am not so sure WL breeders will be able to claim dominance in the temperament category much longer. Sure, that has been the case for years but times are changing . As I have said before, but will repeat anyway, many have not seen a GSD that is really displaying proper temperament. In reality, I think those dogs were never a dime a dozen but they are much less common nowadays. As usual, the culprit is nerve strength . There is simply a lack of courage in many of the dogs now. Yes, even the WLs. The compensating factor for WLs is drive . Not going to talk about that again but I think overall, many people are kind of blinded by their allegiance to certain bloodlines. Everything nowadays seems to be about splitting everything and everyone into conflicting camps. Not sure that's going to change, works too well for people who have something to sell and I am not just talking about dog people.

Since I have boarding and training kennel here and see lots of GSDs, I can say I have seen good dogs from all lines. Many of those better dogs were bred by the dreaded "BYB" . The German show dogs of years past, ( 1980 on), were not bad dogs, although there was always a little something missing but there was less missing than there is nowadays, that's for sure. The American line dogs that I have seen, ( I have not seen many lately though), were usually protective but lacked the nerve to back it up. When I say protective, I mean protective. Not protective like SchH people think of it where is is more about chasing, ( which IMO is not correct). Still, the ASL dogs were very loyal dogs to their owners and many that I have helped train were quite good in obedience because of that loyalty and pack drive. Of course, there were others who were completely unstable.

The German Show line dogs have gone thru many changes in the last thirty years. I remember them as being more like WLs but some were REALLY tough to train. A weird level of hardness, (or maybe resistance is a better way to put it), in those old SL dogs where they would simply not respond to corrections. That behavior some years later then morphed into a situation where they would shut down completely with a correction. Same refusal to comply but now mixed in with something else that made training them simply unpleasant. At the same time, in protection, during the late 80s early 90s, they were mostly lacking any kind of aggression or fight drive. They could only seem to manage training that involved lots of prey work but they didn't show a lot of heart...didn't care enough about the sleeve to fight for it and certainly not enough to fight the man. Made training them very difficult. Now, I am seeing more with aggression, ( but it is not a protective instinct I am seeing), but the nerves are not there to support it and the courage is lacking. We will see how the breeders go about fixing that, ( if they even care to), because for all the lines, as I have said before, nerve strength is the issue. Where people are going to go to compensate, I don't know. Many are too fixated on achieving certain goals and that works against repairing the problems.

The WLs have changed quite a bit as well. Especially in the last ten years. Nerves are sufficient for the type of "testing" that is going on now but maybe not strong enough for working in a way that involves aggression or enough to support a real protective instinct. It is one thing to have a dog who is crazy for a ball or the sleeve be less stellar in the nerve dept, ( although you will still see the result of that), but when you add lines known for aggression to lines with less than strong nerves, look out. That's when things get dangerous and IMO, is a place we are at headed with the WLs. No, not all of them, of course not. But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding. They are going to lines that bark better but maybe not recognizing what is fueling that barking. There are very good dogs who bark but there are dogs who bark for "other " reasons. We also still have the screamers in the WLs. I think the dogs with Fero in there need a certain kind of breeding partner. There are certainly lines I would avoid mixing with that but I do see lots of people breeding combinations that make me wonder what they are thinking. So, we will see where that leads.

Oh and about the Police. You have to consider that about 97% of the dogs in Germany are show line dogs.

great post !!

 

[lhczth]

The way it was explained to me--and this may be a load of horse puckey for all I know--is that a dog's back tends naturally to sag over time. Having a slight arch to the back is more structurally sound because it mitigates this sagging as the dog ages. So even though it might look weird to most people, it doesn't hurt the dog or cause any problems, and in fact helps the dog's structure stand up over time.

Wow, first time I have ever heard that excuse and I have heard a lot of them.

 

[trudy]

Thank you to all responses since my last post, what great info and thoughtful responses. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed.

I want the dog that used to be the correct dog. I love my 2, I love their conformation. To me they are correct, with Gemma having better but neither extreme and heavy yet not over sized. Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL.

In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog, and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat.

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all.

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK

 

[Liesje]

I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

And I'd prefer the dog spat it out and told the helper in dog language to get the eff off our field, tehe.

 

[Vandal]

I've seen some very nice looking working line dogs and then some others that are kind of .....well....boring, plain, not well built and gray. However, it is kind of rare to see a WL that looks like dogs from the 1920's. I hear people making this claim and saying that's what WL breeders like. I think that is basically a bunch of BS. There are some who simply ignore structure, I have talked to those types but for me, they are not really serious breeders. You really should not be ignoring one thing over the other.

There was a time when the structure of both types was looking pretty decent. I would say that was in the 60s, 70s and even a bit into the 80s. Then, in the 90's for whatever reason, things starting kind of going bonkers. That's when the midnight trial dogs started showing up and the SchH rules started being played around with. I think the reed stick was gone before the 90s, can't recall exactly when that went. Then the attack out of the blind was gone. I think when you have decent working dogs, you kind of discount or take for granted how much of a test the real attack on the handler exercise is....No, not the one they do at the Sieger Show...lol. I have worked dogs who could see that helper run out a thousand times and it would still startle the crap out of them. That for me, was a real eye opener when I first started seeing that happening with the show dogs. I had never seen it with the WLs. After that, the WL judges started awarding very high scores to dogs that were simply average at best in protection work. It was more about correctness than it was about what kind of dog was on the field. I mean correctness both as far as how "correctly" the dogs did the exercises but also politically correct. The judges critique was much less about the DOGS and more about point deductions.

While this was going on, many dogs, who would have been considered nothing special a decade or two earlier, were now the cat's meow as far as breeding was concerned. I remember the the blank stares when I mentioned the lack of power in the dogs at the North Amercian SchH Championship held out here in the early part of the last decade. It had not really occurred to many people what was going on. The way the dogs were performing was the norm and people got used to it.
Just like those show dogs in the video......two decades ago, dogs that looked like that would have never made it into a Sieger Show, much less be used as a demonstration of why a dog should become SIEGER! Holy cow.

Like Carmen said a while back. They even make Dog Show logos from an image of a dog displaying an absolutely incorrect gait. They are changing the way people think by doing these things. Pretty easy to do actually, especially when so many people have no point of reference to compare with.

People think some of us just live in the past. The past is important because what we have now is just far less, ( with all the types), than it used to be. It's a big mess that, IMO, will be very hard to fix.

 

[Freestep]

And I'd prefer the dog spat it out and told the helper in dog language to get the eff off our field, tehe.

Haha! My Luka will run around in a circle, bring the sleeve back to the helper, and hit him with it.

 

[Jo Ellen]

But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding.

I don't understand this. Silent guarding? Is this a good thing? What is it?

 

[carmspack]

[
. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed.

xxxxxxxxxx well actually Victorian , Edwardian pre war history is fascinating whether you read Queen Victoria's Gene , or Paris 1919 ,6 months that changed the World , family feuds with Victoria an Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas -- the reigning family had gone under the name Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha -- until around 1917 when the family name became WINDSOR. A separation of the germanic roots . So it was with the dog , the GSD , no longer to be linked to Germany , was renamed the Alsation (Alsation wolf dog) even though the region Alsace- Lorraine had been tossed back and forth between Germany and France. I told you the map of Europe got redrawn many times. The aftermath of the Treaty of Versailles set the stage for the conflict of WW11 and all the tension in the mid east.


Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL.

xxxxxxxxx don't breed according to where the dog is from , you must understand the genetics of the dog , it's genetic origins. If this Gemma is an ASL you have to do some research to see that ASL and GSL basically come from the same family line and there may not be improved for temperament at all . You may end up with fear aggression , or lack of a nerve base. I think Anne the Vandal covered this well.


In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

xxxxxx but some dogs don't even get to first base
How would your dogs do?


I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

xxxxxxxxx same thing - prey , play , either of your two scenarios

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog,

xxxxxxx go back and see what the dogs looked like that ran 3 hours to a trial , competed, ran 3 hours back and then went back to work ---
Form for function. Like a nice looking show that gives you hammer toes , heel spurs , cramps in your legs -- not functional . Von Stephanitz has volumes to say on priorities for work.
The breed is working dog .


and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat.

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all.

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK[/QUOTE]

xxxxxxxx comment on your last sentence -- only if you don't need the dog for your livelihood - if you did no matter where you lived, you would be more critical and demand something that was helpful to you .

Carmen