Vandal that was horrible . Those dogs can't put their head down to track, their hind feet would be in the air.
I saw the bitches youtubey #2 and #3 you could see the panic in the running away --- legs going so fast like little egg beaters , could be put into a vat of cream and soon you would have frothy whippped cream.
the emporer is naked .

 

I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS

watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!!
Far cry from now.

The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".

Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
Now they do little or almost nothing.

THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

I wish you all could see the PBS History Detectives unit discussiong the secret history of dogs going in to military War Dog letter | History Detectives | PBS

watch the episode , and see actual film footage of GSD of the 1940's , just plain old ordinary family dogs given out of patriotism to serve their country. Just family dogs and look at how exceptional they are !!!!
Far cry from now.

The dogs that von Stephanitz dealt with , the dogs of the era did herding, protection, red cross , messenger work, search , real game hunting, water rescue , recovery , pulling carts . A most versatile utility "breed".

Then they seemed to be able to do everything.
Now they do little or almost nothing.

THAT is the crying shame . That is what fuels my passion in dedicating so much interest and time in maintaining WORKability.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

that was great carmen <3 ill have to look that up as well, thanks!

 

The dogs in the video Vandal posted are working. They are working very hard to keep their ass off the ground. Sad that that is admired and bred for.

 

Thank you to all responses since my last post, what great info and thoughtful responses. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed.

I want the dog that used to be the correct dog. I love my 2, I love their conformation. To me they are correct, with Gemma having better but neither extreme and heavy yet not over sized. Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL.

In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog, and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat.

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all.

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK

 

I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

And I'd prefer the dog spat it out and told the helper in dog language to get the eff off our field, tehe.

 

I've seen some very nice looking working line dogs and then some others that are kind of .....well....boring, plain, not well built and gray. However, it is kind of rare to see a WL that looks like dogs from the 1920's. I hear people making this claim and saying that's what WL breeders like. I think that is basically a bunch of BS. There are some who simply ignore structure, I have talked to those types but for me, they are not really serious breeders. You really should not be ignoring one thing over the other.

There was a time when the structure of both types was looking pretty decent. I would say that was in the 60s, 70s and even a bit into the 80s. Then, in the 90's for whatever reason, things starting kind of going bonkers. That's when the midnight trial dogs started showing up and the SchH rules started being played around with. I think the reed stick was gone before the 90s, can't recall exactly when that went. Then the attack out of the blind was gone. I think when you have decent working dogs, you kind of discount or take for granted how much of a test the real attack on the handler exercise is....No, not the one they do at the Sieger Show...lol. I have worked dogs who could see that helper run out a thousand times and it would still startle the crap out of them. That for me, was a real eye opener when I first started seeing that happening with the show dogs. I had never seen it with the WLs. After that, the WL judges started awarding very high scores to dogs that were simply average at best in protection work. It was more about correctness than it was about what kind of dog was on the field. I mean correctness both as far as how "correctly" the dogs did the exercises but also politically correct. The judges critique was much less about the DOGS and more about point deductions.

While this was going on, many dogs, who would have been considered nothing special a decade or two earlier, were now the cat's meow as far as breeding was concerned. I remember the the blank stares when I mentioned the lack of power in the dogs at the North Amercian SchH Championship held out here in the early part of the last decade. It had not really occurred to many people what was going on. The way the dogs were performing was the norm and people got used to it.
Just like those show dogs in the video......two decades ago, dogs that looked like that would have never made it into a Sieger Show, much less be used as a demonstration of why a dog should become SIEGER! Holy cow.

Like Carmen said a while back. They even make Dog Show logos from an image of a dog displaying an absolutely incorrect gait. They are changing the way people think by doing these things. Pretty easy to do actually, especially when so many people have no point of reference to compare with.

People think some of us just live in the past. The past is important because what we have now is just far less, ( with all the types), than it used to be. It's a big mess that, IMO, will be very hard to fix.

 

[
. I do know the dogs aren't communist, although i did hear there was a problem in England after WW2 that they renamed the breed.

xxxxxxxxxx well actually Victorian , Edwardian pre war history is fascinating whether you read Queen Victoria's Gene , or Paris 1919 ,6 months that changed the World , family feuds with Victoria an Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas -- the reigning family had gone under the name Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha -- until around 1917 when the family name became WINDSOR. A separation of the germanic roots . So it was with the dog , the GSD , no longer to be linked to Germany , was renamed the Alsation (Alsation wolf dog) even though the region Alsace- Lorraine had been tossed back and forth between Germany and France. I told you the map of Europe got redrawn many times. The aftermath of the Treaty of Versailles set the stage for the conflict of WW11 and all the tension in the mid east.


Temperment, they are sound and have drives sufficient for me, but I would prefer to amp up that a bit, that is why the thoughts of breeding Gemma to a GSL.

xxxxxxxxx don't breed according to where the dog is from , you must understand the genetics of the dog , it's genetic origins. If this Gemma is an ASL you have to do some research to see that ASL and GSL basically come from the same family line and there may not be improved for temperament at all . You may end up with fear aggression , or lack of a nerve base. I think Anne the Vandal covered this well.


In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome.

xxxxxx but some dogs don't even get to first base
How would your dogs do?


I know that is the only way to safely train yet somewhere int here the sleeve becomes more of a focus than the owner. I've seen several times where once the dog has the sleeve it runs off the field or to the exit area to chew its prize. I would prefer if the dog shook it and brought it to the owner to share and deliver, just my own thought.

xxxxxxxxx same thing - prey , play , either of your two scenarios

And while I understand the idea that WL looks like the breed did in the 1920's, more like the beginning, I am not prepared to get what to me is often an ugly dog,

xxxxxxx go back and see what the dogs looked like that ran 3 hours to a trial , competed, ran 3 hours back and then went back to work ---
Form for function. Like a nice looking show that gives you hammer toes , heel spurs , cramps in your legs -- not functional . Von Stephanitz has volumes to say on priorities for work.
The breed is working dog .


and I have seen some that are better looking yet too many look like Mal's on steroids for muscle build up. If i want a square, sable dog I'll get a Belgian, of course for me it would be a coat.

I do appreciate the knowledge and info about the dogs that emigrated east from Germany long ago and how the breed was sorta split along geographical lines, as the ASL was when the distance and ease of locating a stud becomes an issue. Then of course the almighty $$$$ signs that ruin all.

I hate when if you become friends with some of the big breeders how they do love dogs of the past and when you look at pics they are the more correctly built ones and yet those same breeders helped change what is today's dogs. And when you find out the health issues that are ignored and bred around yet not learned from. But I hope the breeders today, with the internet and more readily available info and facts that things can change back to correct. Remember, when you live more isolated what you have may seem right or OK[/QUOTE]

xxxxxxxx comment on your last sentence -- only if you don't need the dog for your livelihood - if you did no matter where you lived, you would be more critical and demand something that was helpful to you .

Carmen

 

I can't seem to locate the youtubey of the 2010 sieger show results showed V3 moving with feet going so fast underneath it that -- wait for it -- image came to me while driving --- a SHRIMP - so much motion you can't count the feet.
Look at this

or this one

do they see the dogs pacing

 

I have seen plenty of GSL dogs who are not roached back...certain lines look certain ways....I have seen them do happy work when trained certain ways....and I have seen them run off the field...

For companion dogs, I would certainly recommend them - there is a breeder in the State College area Jo Anne, who would definitely produce a dog that does not look like this and would be a good choice for temperament...Eichenhalle I think is the kennel name...

And I know dogs who have competed at World levels in sport who ARE house dogs and who are easy to live wiht!!!

Lee

 

For companion dogs, I would certainly recommend them - there is a breeder in the State College area Jo Anne, who would definitely produce a dog that does not look like this and would be a good choice for temperament...Eichenhalle I think is the kennel name...

State College? I can visit, easily, that's only 25 minutes from me. Great lead, Lee, thank you!

 

but she wants to have the dog give the sleeve a shake and bring it to her , which indicates she does not understand the fundamentals of what the decoy work is about. Unfortunately she has lots of company . Play, Prey.

xxxx

the video of the dogs gaiting was at the BSZS , the world's eyes trained on them, the dogs to emulate , and then you have that compressed arched back pup as a result.
I agree there can be normal gsl dogs , but they'll never make it in the limelight . So? So look how many ads there are that proclaim we only breed to top VA , top V . Those are the dogs that fetch the price, the vanity of having "one of the worlds best" , those are the ones that get bred and procreate.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

I agree there can be normal gsl dogs , but they'll never make it in the limelight . So? So look how many ads there are that proclaim we only breed to top VA , top V . Those are the dogs that fetch the price, the vanity of having "one of the worlds best" , those are the ones that get bred and procreate.

But don't you think-- and I'm just thinking out loud here, I really don't know-- that for your average GSL or ASL kennel, people buying to compete in high level shows are a fairly small portion of their business? If they didn't breed dogs that appeal to your normal active pet home, sure they might sell some high-priced dogs to the top show people, but they wouldn't sell very many dogs overall?

When I went to the Sieger in Dallas, some of the dogs looked like the ones in the video, and some were more moderate.

 

Thanks for all the input. I'm glad to know that there are degrees of angulation and that if I do choose to go with a GSL in the future then I will likely be able to find one that appeals to me both appearance wise and temperament wise. My co-worker got a GSL and I checked out her breeder's website and her dogs don't look that angulated in comparison to the one's demonstrated in the video. That's why I was confused when I watched the video.

 

When the main lines being used emulate the structure needed to win, when the bloodlines are so over run by these same lines, eventually those that don't breed for extremes will have no where to go. That look and those lines will be pretty much all you have left (unless you are willing to breed outside of the box) The same with temperament, drives, nerves, working ability, etc.

 

I personally, look at dogs called German Shepherds as just that. That means if what I am looking at doesn't resemble one, or is clearly faulty, incorrect or not at all what they are /were intended to be, my comments will reflect that . If you find a German Shepherd dog that fits the standard , physical ability, temperament etc, in a show line dog, buy it! A good dog is a good dog.

Having said that, when you have the "top" show line breeders in the WORLD, purposely ignoring what a German Shepherd Dog should look and act like, that might be something to keep in mind when you are looking. Just like there are WL breeders who think a certain type of temperament is correct because they compete in sport, formally known as Schutzhund.

I guess the trick is, and always will be, to believe you own eyes. I remember a German woman trying to tell me that the roach, hinge, whatever you want to call that , was actually correct. She didn't care who she was talking to, she simply wanted everyone reading to believe what she was saying. People will state how correct that is but never explain WHY they think it is correct. It's a "because I say so" kind of explanation. That should not be good enough for anyone, IMO.

Mostly, people think these conversations start because other breeders are trying to change public opinion about one type of dog. It is about the German Shepherd, not your favorite type of German Shepherd. People complain about the different factions but still view it all that way. "Well MY show dog/line isn't like that" they say. Well, lots of others ARE like that but again, it is not about one line, it is about what has/is/will happen to the entire breed.

I really believe there is no will to fix what has gone terribly wrong. The breeders in Germany are putting these dogs on display at the biggest, most prestigious dog show in the world and asking people to not believe their own eyes, or their own knowledge, about what a GSD should look and act like. If you tell a lie long enough, people will believe it. Amazing numbers of people are doing just that.

 

:thumbup:

 

They keep a tighter lead with the collar very loose and low and want to see the dog really digging in with their rear.

There is a reason the judges ask to see the dogs on a tight line and then without one. In reality, what happens to those dogs on the tight line shows just how incorrect they are. The back should not give/change/weaken like that.

From the standard:
The German Shepherd is a trotting dog. Length and angulation of front and rear legs must be in proper proportion to one another to permit the dog to move the rear leg underneath the body, matching the reach of the rear legs with that of the front legs and at the same time, keeping the topline over the back relatively undisturbed. Any tendency for overangulation of the rear reduces firmness and endurance of the dog and therefore, working capability. Correct body proportions and angulation result in a ground-covering gait which moves close to the ground and conveys the impression of effortless movement. With the head held slightly forward and the tail slightly lifted, the dog trotting evenly and smoothly, we see a softly moving topline which flows without interruption from neck to tail tip.

 

yes Anne the Vandal , that is why I chose the youtubey that I did because almost ALL of the dogs were pacing and that is the default movement when the dog is exhausted .
Only a few at the near end of the video show continued trotting -- not only near end of the video , near end in the order of placement also.

Forum members Kessy Waldwinkel ran longer and harder in the youtubey she provided and the dog was efficient and fit . Good example.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

 

hi .no knowledge here about breeding just have a couple of questionsthat Im begining to form. First my dogs are older and I will look for another dog and if it is not a Nowegian elkhound it will be a GSD. I want atherapy dog(work with juvenile court youth) but i also the more i read watch videos would like to do Schutzhund maybe but I want a dog w/ good nerves and solid temperment.So what are my chances of having a dog w/ that potential(as an owner I have to do my part)? what line do i look at ? Im not as active as some folks on here and at almost 50 I'm not going to run 12 miles so Is a GSD a bad idea for me?

 

Lee wrote:

I had a black and silver dog who did the whole Sch3 routine happily.....as long as you did not hit her with a stick! Environmental and social nerves great - but would not take a stick hit....so not 100% -

Keeping this quote in mind, now watch the videos provided by this youtube user, specifically the 2011 SV BSZS TSB, ( protection work at the Sieger Show) :
KuznetsovSergey's Channel - YouTube

For the last ten years, the people breeding these dogs and the SV, have made "promises" to demand more from the dogs in this "test". Nothing has changed except for one thing....they stopped hitting the dogs on the "attack", ( flee is more like it), out of the blind. The drive that follows the attack is supposed to include two stick hits. A couple of years ago, you could see one, very light tap, now they don't even try to hide the fact that the dog is not being hit. A few more years of this and it becomes the norm. They do it slowly, but where things are headed, is in exactly the same direction.

If anyone wonders why the stick hit is important, please ask. I am sure there are more than a couple of people who will be happy to explain.

 

For the last ten years, the people breeding these dogs and the SV, have made "promises" to demand more from the dogs in this "test". Nothing has changed except for one thing....they stopped hitting the dogs on the "attack", ( flee is more like it), out of the blind. The drive that follows the attack is supposed to include two stick hits. A couple of years ago, you could see one, very light tap, now they don't even try to hide the fact that the dog is not being hit.

Actually another thing changed. Now they are doing the long bites like backup bites for some of the dogs, you know the dogs that have already been predetermined to get VA ratings so they need to "pass" this "courage test" first. Some of the vids from the recent show look like the helpers are smiling and laughing. Good grief....

As far as heads go I admit I like a substantial, masculine head but I've seen some recently that even make me cringe. They look like an Akita or Chow head but the size of a Newf on a GSD.

 

As far as heads go I admit I like a substantial, masculine head but I've seen some recently that even make me cringe. They look like an Akita or Chow head but the size of a Newf on a GSD.

That would be Akela at 5 months old! He looked like a bear by then, luckily he has grown into that head and looks balanced now, though older than he really is. I also was afraid I'd end up with and oversized monster by that age, but so far he almost stopped growing in height at 8 months old. I bet that serious talk we had about being into the standard made sense to him.

 

Okay, no attacks, no sticky hits. Wonder why that is?

 

From the standard:

The head is wedge-shaped and in harmony with the dog's size (length app. 40% of height at the withers) without being coarse or overly long. The head should appear dry, and moderately wide between the ears. Seen from the front and side, the forehead is only slightly domed, the center furrow is either absent or only slightly visible. The length ratio of skull to face is 50 : 50%. Skull width approximately equals skull length. Seen from above, the skull slopes into a wedge-shaped muzzle. The stop should not be pronounced. Upper and lower jaws are strong, the bridge of the nose should be straight, not a Roman nose or dish-faced nose. Lips are taut, well closed and of dark color.

The heads on many of the SL dogs, and the DDR dogs for that matter, are not correct. They are too big, more of the mastiff variety than a GSD.

 

From the standard:

The heads on many of the SL dogs, and the DDR dogs for that matter, are not correct. They are too big, more of the mastiff variety than a GSD.

Thank you for posting that! With a clear breed standard, why is there so much variance and differences in appearance? There is an obvious difference in appearance between the working lines and show lines but only 1 breed standard? Which is correct then? Which lines are breeding closest to standard?

 

I agree though that exaggeration is bad but there seems to be a lot of variance between lines to the point where it can be confusing to say what a GSD is suppose to look like

Read the standard and interpret it yourself. Don't simply accept the "interpretation" of others, especially if what they are saying doesn't match what you are looking at.

I have been at shows and at Breed Surveys where the judge is there looking at one dog and describing a completely different one. lol. That's especially true when they start talking about pronounced in protection. It is funny, while at the same time maddening. These people are such good liars, they do it all with a straight face.

 

That will be for you and your own eyes to decide. I'm not here talking to try to convince anyone one way or the other. People need to educate themselves without relying quite so much on information from one "type" of breeder or another. Use your own judgement, your own eyes and read about what they are supposed to be. Then, it is quite easy, if you are not someone who is susceptible to politics anyway.

 

Originally posted by Whiteshepherds -Does anyone know how the roached back started or what the reasoning was/is behind it?

PaddyD replied-WHAT!? Someone agrees with me?
Somewhere, somehow there is some strange shi+ happening.

I think you got me mixed up with someone else. I was just trying to learn when the roached back started showing up and how breeders decided it made for a better dog compared to the straighter backs. Didn't want to insult anyone's dogs.

 

It was that you recognized that roach backs exist and that they have a following. So many breeders and their sycophants seem to be in denial and think their dogs are perfectly fine and functional.

 

GSDAlphamom's crippled, hock-walking, roach-back, non-athletic German Show Line dogs:

I stole that pic from the July photo contest.

 

"The stop should not be pronounced. Upper and lower jaws are strong, the bridge of the nose should be straight, not a Roman nose or dish-faced nose."

This from the Standard, but I have seen a number of ASL dogs that had a narrow head and a Roman nose. Not at all attractive, IMO.

 

This from the Standard, but I have seen a number of ASL dogs that had a narrow head and a Roman nose. Not at all attractive, IMO.

We were talking about bigger heads. I am pretty certain you can find dogs from all the lines that don't fit the standard exactly.

Like I said, people can read the standard, maybe read the Stephanitz book or others that are not biased one way or the other. Then decide for themselves which dogs...and I mean dogs, not lines.....are closer to the standard.

 

But Anne! It's so much easier to argue about youtube videos on internet forums!


I think that's the thing that makes me craziest sometimes: Working dogs are like this. ASL dogs are like that. GSL dogs are like this. You shouldn't have a rescue dog if you've got young kids because rescue dogs are unpredictable. If we were talking about people we'd all be banned for a bunch of racists.