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The ABC's of GSD breeding

43K views 232 replies 42 participants last post by  carmspack  
I guess the answer to Trudy is....the show ring is about the worst thing that can happen to any breed. Used to be that judge had the pedigree because, in Germany, he was there to guide the breeders and steer the breed in the right direction. Now, maybe that pedigree is more a political guide. The whole thing has been turned on it's head because people seem to get stuck on appearances. They want things to look a certain way when the reality is a completely different story. It is the same in SchH now where dogs "look" like they will protect when they won't at all. It's the Hollywood factor I guess.

I am not so sure WL breeders will be able to claim dominance in the temperament category much longer. Sure, that has been the case for years but times are changing . As I have said before, but will repeat anyway, many have not seen a GSD that is really displaying proper temperament. In reality, I think those dogs were never a dime a dozen but they are much less common nowadays. As usual, the culprit is nerve strength . There is simply a lack of courage in many of the dogs now. Yes, even the WLs. The compensating factor for WLs is drive . Not going to talk about that again but I think overall, many people are kind of blinded by their allegiance to certain bloodlines. Everything nowadays seems to be about splitting everything and everyone into conflicting camps. Not sure that's going to change, works too well for people who have something to sell and I am not just talking about dog people.

Since I have boarding and training kennel here and see lots of GSDs, I can say I have seen good dogs from all lines. Many of those better dogs were bred by the dreaded "BYB" . The German show dogs of years past, ( 1980 on), were not bad dogs, although there was always a little something missing but there was less missing than there is nowadays, that's for sure. The American line dogs that I have seen, ( I have not seen many lately though), were usually protective but lacked the nerve to back it up. When I say protective, I mean protective. Not protective like SchH people think of it where is is more about chasing, ( which IMO is not correct). Still, the ASL dogs were very loyal dogs to their owners and many that I have helped train were quite good in obedience because of that loyalty and pack drive. Of course, there were others who were completely unstable.

The German Show line dogs have gone thru many changes in the last thirty years. I remember them as being more like WLs but some were REALLY tough to train. A weird level of hardness, (or maybe resistance is a better way to put it), in those old SL dogs where they would simply not respond to corrections. That behavior some years later then morphed into a situation where they would shut down completely with a correction. Same refusal to comply but now mixed in with something else that made training them simply unpleasant. At the same time, in protection, during the late 80s early 90s, they were mostly lacking any kind of aggression or fight drive. They could only seem to manage training that involved lots of prey work but they didn't show a lot of heart...didn't care enough about the sleeve to fight for it and certainly not enough to fight the man. Made training them very difficult. Now, I am seeing more with aggression, ( but it is not a protective instinct I am seeing), but the nerves are not there to support it and the courage is lacking. We will see how the breeders go about fixing that, ( if they even care to), because for all the lines, as I have said before, nerve strength is the issue. Where people are going to go to compensate, I don't know. Many are too fixated on achieving certain goals and that works against repairing the problems.

The WLs have changed quite a bit as well. Especially in the last ten years. Nerves are sufficient for the type of "testing" that is going on now but maybe not strong enough for working in a way that involves aggression or enough to support a real protective instinct. It is one thing to have a dog who is crazy for a ball or the sleeve be less stellar in the nerve dept, ( although you will still see the result of that), but when you add lines known for aggression to lines with less than strong nerves, look out. That's when things get dangerous and IMO, is a place we are at headed with the WLs. No, not all of them, of course not. But there is a shift happening because people now want the dogs to bark in protection vs what has been going on the last ten years with silent guarding. They are going to lines that bark better but maybe not recognizing what is fueling that barking. There are very good dogs who bark but there are dogs who bark for "other " reasons. We also still have the screamers in the WLs. I think the dogs with Fero in there need a certain kind of breeding partner. There are certainly lines I would avoid mixing with that but I do see lots of people breeding combinations that make me wonder what they are thinking. So, we will see where that leads.

Oh and about the Police. You have to consider that about 97% of the dogs in Germany are show line dogs.
great post !!
 
all that and i am finally satisfied, wow imagine what i am like to live with LOL. I worry about that happening. have a great night everyone -- thanks for the talk !! I learned a bunch.
oh one more thing -- I feel the exact same way about my ASL dogs. too many people are giving them a bad name , not enough work being done by the breeders.
 
Sure, absolutely. This being America, you're free to do what you want. Just because a dog is dark sable and has "Vom Whatshisnuts" after its name doesn't mean it's a solid dog with a good temperament. That's why it's important to buy from a breeder that works their dogs, and not one who's just breeding working line dog A to working line dog B to sell working line puppies.
all that and i am finally satisfied, wow imagine what i am like to live with LOL. I worry about that happening. have a great night everyone -- thanks for the talk !! I learned a bunch.
 
This. People in America breeding working line dogs are either breeding dogs imported from Germany, or dogs of recent German ancestry.
thanks , Do you think that there could possibly be a new line coming out american working line (dogs are akc registered parents are ancestors of wl german dogs but have never been tested for sv) ok i am getting tired , my mind is really wandering now.
 
There is no "American working line". American breeders of working lines use dogs of recent European heritage, not hailing from American lines.
how would you answer whiteshepherds question . It was a good one. I think robinurta answered it but i am confused. Could there be people in america breeding wl dogs that would not pass the sv tests or have bad temperaments?
 
Under the SV system, a puppy can only be registered if both parents meet the requirements of title, show rating, breed survey and hip and elbow certifications.

Can one breed a dog without those things? Certainly. But it's offspring cannot be registered.

Of course while this all sounds grand, and this system did help maintain quality for a number of years, the reality is that over time things shifted and instead of making sure the dog's met the standards, the standards were lowered to meet the common denominator of dogs, and quality has suffered as a result.
thanks , very helpful!
 
OK I see what you're saying. Yes, under the SV system you can have a registered German Shepherd who has never bitten anything but dog biscuits and has never been to an event or had his hips x-rayed. But his parents, his grand parents, and his great-grandparents have for nearly a century. (except for the x-ray thing. Not sure when that was instituted.)
thanks you have been very patient, it feels really good to get away from the negative talk that always seems to happen on here. I know we are all very passionate about the breed ( or we would not spend a whole night typing about them) lol
 
In those years....IF a breeder wanted/chose to adhere to the SV rules, they either bought dogs from Germany already titled...or sent their dogs to Germany to be titled. (not sure what year the SV allowed foreign dogs to be registered in their breed books)? It was not a pre-requisite for dogs born out of Germany/Europe.
ah so there may be a total mixture of all lines in the current american bred working lines then?
 
Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported.

How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?
why has no one answered your question?
 
I wasn't aware, thanks!



But wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of AKC puppies are not DNA tested?



Breeding and the standard are two sides of the same coin, how do you separate them? Without breeding, there's no reason for a standard, and without the standard how do you know what you're breeding *for*?
good point , but I am really just talking about the standard , for the regular everyday person , who occasionally shows , hearding or some type of aggression training. Not about people that have given their lives to the breed.
 
Who is they? The AKC or the buying public? I'm confused about your question.

I don't think the AKC is necessarily a shoddy organization, it's the best we've got here in America for sure.. They do a great job putting on performance and conformation events, they do a good job of trying to educate dog owners, I applaud their efforts with the CGC and STAR puppy program. It just doesn't deserve its reputation as an ensurer of quality that it has among the general dog buying public.

No hate on the AKC, but it's a simple fact that there are no requirements to be bred or registered beyond having registered parents and paying a fee. It is a fact that pedigree buying goes on-- people buy the pedigree and AKC registration number of a deceased or neutered dog and use it for their unregistered dog to produce "registered" puppies. This can happen because breeding stock is not required to have permanent identification or be DNA tested unless they are producing more than 5 litters. Even then there is no DNA testing to prove that the puppies in question belong to the DNA tested dog.
you answered my question, thats the reason people register with akc then hmmmm

I bet the same thing happens in germany
 
Under the SV system, a dog must have an SchH1, a be evaluated by a breed steward as adhering to the standard, and pass hip and elbow evaluations in order to be approved for breeding. They don't have to have that in order to be registered and recognized as German Shepherds, but they do have to have it to be bred.
I am talking about the standard not breeding , sorry
 
Schutzhund started in 1901 in Germany but the first Schutzhund trial wasn't held in the US until 1970, that's a 69 year gap. It doesn't seem possible that there were no good GSD's being produced in the US for all those years or that all breeding pairs were imported.

How did people in the US with GSD's not registered with the SV test their dogs before Schutzhund came to the US?
good question
 
Most breeders of German line dogs choose to adhere to the stricter German standards, even though they live in the U.S. Working line German Shepherds born in the U.S. are registered with the AKC. Again, since the AKC has no standards for breeding (not a value judgement, just a fact), people can choose to follow the German standard -- or the Olde Fashioned 150lb longhaired standard, or the Alsatian Shepalute standard, or the floppy eared undersized Panda Shepherd standard-- and as long as the parents are AKC registered and the owner pays out their $$$, the dog is an AKC registered German Shepherd.
question , if the akc is such a shoddy organization , then why would they even care if their dogs are akc registered? it simply means nothing then .
 
Most breeders of German line dogs choose to adhere to the stricter German standards, even though they live in the U.S. Working line German Shepherds born in the U.S. are registered with the AKC. Again, since the AKC has no standards for breeding (not a value judgement, just a fact), people can choose to follow the German standard -- or the Olde Fashioned 150lb longhaired standard, or the Alsatian Shepalute standard, or the floppy eared undersized Panda Shepherd standard-- and as long as the parents are AKC registered and the owner pays out their $$$, the dog is an AKC registered German Shepherd.
I am sorry , I was not talking about breeding , I was asking about the gsd standard and from what I have just read there is not much different in the german version of the standard and the american standard.