Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's against board rules to advertise merchandise as is being sold in your blogspot link below your name.

 

Nope. It's not being sold on my blog, dear. My post has simply a link to the official site of the vegan food manufacturer so my readers, if they are interested, can easily access it.

Have you not seen other websites doing that?

You know that country song; "Why you got to be so mean?" ( I don't remember the name of the singer)

I listen to it all the time, and I love it.

 

???? I clicked on the link and the first thing shown was an ad for a book. Other people are not allowed to sell things on here and have gotten warnings for posting such links. Here I thought I was being nice and letting you know before you received a warning. I know one who was warned for putting a watermark on a picture.

If I was mean, I would have just reported it. Rules are rules, sweetheart.

 

What ad do you refer to? I have no advertisement going on on my website. No ads. Everything you see on my website I own the copyrights to it.

All the information (being vegan, overcoming depression partially due to my new diet...) is accessible to readers. (no membership required)

And if someone who suffers from severe depression decides to buy the book I wrote, why would that be an issue?

Somehow I get a feeling that with my replies I pinched your nerves.

Seriously, I thought that people who love animals (GSDs especially) are really friendly peeps that I couldn't wait to get to know closer...

 

I personally like not to have to pay the vet bills on regular basis like I used to...

my own dogs are not vegan or vegan fed and two of mine are eating straight raw due to other health issues not related to allergies or sensitivities
but all my dogs are doing wonderful and rarely need to visit the vet

as someone said early on all dogs are not alike and food should not be a one size fits all approach

also you mentioned 'expensive science diet"(i agree!) and that you switched to "cheapr foods you can find easily" or some such -- when you say that if you mean purina and pedigree
those are two easy to find cheaper foods

but they lack premium nutrition

if you had fed raw meats instead of anything bagged i wonder if your dog would have blossomed just like she is now?

it is my belief and probably not very scientific one at that, that dogs do better on meat based foods and proteins
the bioavailability of the proteins in foods they were meant to eat (meat based) would be greater than vegetable proteins such as soy

soy , to my knowledge , is the primary source of protein in vegetarian diets for dogs
there are also pea protein and probably a few others i am not aware of immediately

anyway my two dogs with health issues (which are not diet related) are truly thriving and would have died without the switch to raw meats

 

It does make me wonder whether the raw meat would resolve the skin issue the way vegan food did.

Despite what it may sound like, I don't consider myself a rigid "newly transformed" vegan who wants everyone else to become one as well.

But I have been happy with this new food I found, and so as excited as I can get sometimes, I like to share things with the world.

I'm very glad to hear that your fur-kids are alive and healthy. I think we as "parents" know in our hearts what our fur-kids need. It's always helpful to reach out to others, and to share our experiences too, I believe.

 

Interesting discussion. I think the OP is talking about micro evolution and not macro evolution. Macro is dog becomes cat. Micro is a change within the species or here micro of a sub species which would be the breed, GSD, not just all dogs.

I am interested to know what the person who cooks vegan for his or her dog cooks? Is it the same food a vegan eats? No judgment, just curious. Not sure I know what a vegan eats.

 

Actually, good question. I'd like to know more about that as well, this way I could diversify Nel's diet that much more. Hopefully we'll hear more about that.

And yes, the evolution I had in mind was more of a spiritual nature... I am a firm believer that ALL animals have Souls, just like we humans do, and that we are not superior to them whatsoever....

Ooops.. I thought you were asking the question about cooking vegan food one of the members who commented on this thread, who talked about preparing own vegan food in the kitchen. I personally buy vegan food that's made by Evolution Diet, but if that person mentioned earlier shares more info with us here, I will sure "steal" those recepies....

 

Directly from OP's website:

"I ignored all the negative opinions of so called "experts" on how dogs are carnivals, how they need to eat meat, and how vegan diet isn't natural to them."

Tells me all I need to know.

 

I hadn't bothered to read the article until you pointed this out, and this bit made me absolutely cringe.

With all due respect, OP... I again have to recommend you do lots and lots of research on the domestic dog and its dietary needs...

 

well let me tell you i was skeptical but when our thinnest dog (early kidney failure due to a medication he took) gained weight like never before and his coat is thick, shiny and healthy, i started believing the raw was a miracle for him

 

This is good to know.

Perhaps the food industry will wake up eventually and they'll start being more careful about the ingredients they put in the dog food...

Meat or no meat, it really makes me smile whenever I see (or hear about) happy dogs. That's what it's all about!

 

You're welcome. Now, to help you notice the error of vegan feeding a carnivore.

Naaaah, I sense that will never happen.

 

LOL, no hard feelings.... I like your sense of humor though (I'm not being sarcastic)

 

elzbieta
i dont think anyone here is going to deny you your experience but for the most part our experiences are the same without resorting to vegetarian diets

i messaged you btw!!

 

I messaged you back.

You know how I started this thread, btw? I googled vegan german shepherd and I saw a post on this website in which someone was asking about benefits of turning their friend's dog into a vegetarian, so I commented on it.

Posting a reply made me register, so here I am.... Then I thought; "Oh, apparently there are people out there who do wonder about those kind of things...."

 

Elizbieta,
Hi, welcome to the forum. I know I am joinig this conversation late. I am not really interested in the vegan debate. I feed my dogs 100% raw meat, bones, raw eggs and organs and they love it and are thriving. They have beautiful coats and do not itch at all. My male did scratch non stop when he was on kibble though. Didn't matter what I tried. I just wanted to say that I am very jealous of where you live. Those views are gorgeous! I visited Hawaii about 25 years ago and will never forget the experience.

 

LOL, thanks for being honest... Living here does feel sometimes like being on vacation 365 days a year.

Hopefully you'll visit this part of the world soon again.

And thank you for the welcoming to the forum.

 

I'm just going to leave this here...

 

And I'll just leave you with these images:

 

All dogs are different. We has issues with large, loose stool until I went with grain free. I think it was the corn in the other food bothering him. Puppy formula did not cause the problem just when we went to the adult which was lower protein. Started with Blue wilderness then found Taste of Wild.

 

Seems like lots of people have been going through similar problems. It's so good to have internet and not having to rely on paid-advice only these days.

 

I think we need a little more politeness here; some folks have been a bit rude.

I am terribly skeptical of putting dogs on a vegan diet and would love to see folks doing this sharing blood panels and veterinary exams over a several year period to see what they get instead of chasing them off. I would think issues would occur over a several year period, not just a short time.......I think just getting away from the a particular animal protein made the difference for this dog.

All we have learned about biology indicates feeding a non obligate carnivore (like a dog) a vegetarian diet contraindicated. On the other hand, dogs have lived with humans since before written history and ate whatever they scavenged from them.

Plenty of hunting dogs in the south had a diet primarily of cornmeal mush.

Health, longevity? I don't know.

 

Thank you Nancy, very good observation. Indeed, conversing here made me want to take Nel to vet for regular blood checks, to have this scientific proof everyone here seems to need so bad.

As for some rude comments, I've learned in life (thanks to my battle with depression) that people almost always say hurtful things to others when they are hurting from within themselves.

This understanding helps me not to get mad, at the same time though; I ain't a push over. Not anymore. I think people who say mean things, they need a hug :hug:

 

many cheaper dog foods are soy based
i think someone brought that up
ime soy based diets gave them mushy stool and gas but they got acclimatized to it
i do think a dog would tolerate a vegetarian diet due to their scavenging nature
than a cat would because of cats unique protein needs

it is an interesting concept

 

Indeed. I had no idea that the concept of a vegan dog is still that new!

This actually inspires me to write more about Nel's experience with her new food, and in the future I may even include those scientific blood results from the lab, to put everyone at ease. Apparently seeing the obvious improvement in the pictures isn't enough...

Good. This forum is giving me some more work to do...

 

i couldnt see the original pics :shrug:

and keep in mind that just as many people have this same experience without doing the vegan thing for their dogs
merely switching to a better food or even adding salmon or flax oil can do much the same as to coat and skin texture and improvements

but it will be interesting to read your blog and see the transformation! are the original pics on there too?

 

Yes they are. Btw, I did try that oil thing in the past. Didn't work. My friends even suggested to rub my dog with some starch to relieve the itchiness. God only knows what I've had tried...

The vegan food was God sent.

Here, I'll add the pictures here for you so you don't have to scroll through the entire thread:

 

starch
ouch!
there are a ton of home remedies for everything these days it seems!
your dog is beautiful
i have not seen many coats as thick as hers!

our youngest pup is around 18mos now and had some allergy to an enviromental weed in our area
i took him to the vet who of course recommended prednisone although a low dose i told him i would rather not use it

i started giving him apple cider vinegar to rebalance his body
used it also topically (but this was a topical allergen) and then added flax and salmon and vit e to his regiment
it took about 3 mos but his fur is growing back well and he looks awesome
food is roughly the same but the supplements made the biggest difference i believe
i also have ordered an oil blend of hemp and e along with sardine and anchovy oils for him
i cant wait to try them as his fur right now looks fantastic

 

On facebook I see those smart quotes that say: "A worried mother will work harder than 10 FBIs and she'll do a better research." or something like that. It shows you that as much as it's good to listen to experts, following our gut feeling and then doing some research on our own may be the best thing to do..

I'm glad your puppy is improving.

 

yes cats have to have real meat to survive
they will die without taurine in their diets

What Exactly is an "Obligate Carnivore?" - Feline Nutrition
cat digestive system is entirely different than dogs

 

Well the op's cat is vegan and he's not alone. I just googled it and they have vegan food for cats and supposedly thousands of healthy cats.
One website does suggest giving some cats meat sometimes 'if they're not ready to follow the many steps to make sure the cats are safely vegan'

They don't mention dying, just say that they have uti s

Also, supposedly there's synthetic non animal based taurine.

 

Does anyone in your vegan community question you about even owning a dog ?

Some hard core adherents won't take honey , rob the bee of its labours , won't take bee pollen, obviously no dairy , no egg , not even fish essence that you would have in , say, Worchestershire sauce .
As a special request from a friend-dog owner-vegan , organizer and "mother" of the first Raw and Vegan festival in Toronto , I agreed to participate representing animal health .
Even the organizer was surprised by the hostility . We rarely , barely spoke about food . There were political issues , a strong Animal Rights and PETA under current.
Questioning the concept of the rights to own or control a dog . They , meaning the roaming crowds throughout the day, seemed to think that dogs should be at liberty, govern their own lives and welfare, form their own families - and be free.
That happens in Brazil and Russia and some tropical islands have pot-dogs . Those are not happy stories.

If you are feeding vegan at least get the dog some plant based omega 3 . Get the dog and yourself some plant based (seaweed) DHA / EPA . At least provide quionoa
or chia seed , some chlorella , some spirulina , SPROUTED grain with inhibiting phytic acids eliminated.
Get some colour , variety into the diet.

I can and do and have cooked vegan , maybe a few days here or there , just because something appeals to me , or when son visits for a week or two. Don't miss meat - but no egg, no butter, no cheese , I mean no cheese that is one of the pleasures .
The occasional faux burger made with crimini mushrooms and black beans , nutritional yeast , maybe with some ground seeds -- really good.
I can do vegetarian, flexitarian. Some awesome books especially the desserts in Kaminsky's Vegan Desserts totally creative Vegan Desserts by Hannah Kaminsky,

Get it Ripe by Steele [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Get-It-Ripe-Cooking-Living/dp/1551522349[/ame]

Veganize This ! and vegetarian For the Love of Food by Denis Coter [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/For-The-Love-Food-Vegetarian/dp/000731275X[/ame] beautiful .

My shelves have several other titles.

But for a dog , no .
There has been a devolution. We have food sensitivities and itching and dogs not living to the best of their potential because there has been a 50 , 60 year experiment with feeding carnivores , canines, a grain diet . The effects have been accumulative and generational.

 

Does anyone in your vegan community question you about even owning a dog ?

Some hard core adherents won't take honey , rob the bee of its labours , won't take bee pollen, obviously no dairy , no egg , not even fish essence that you would have in , say, Worchestershire sauce .
As a special request from a friend-dog owner-vegan , organizer and "mother" of the first Raw and Vegan festival in Toronto , I agreed to participate representing animal health .
Even the organizer was surprised by the hostility . We rarely , barely spoke about food . There were political issues , a strong Animal Rights and PETA under current.
Questioning the concept of the rights to own or control a dog . They , meaning the roaming crowds throughout the day, seemed to think that dogs should be at liberty, govern their own lives and welfare, form their own families - and be free.
That happens in Brazil and Russia and some tropical islands have pot-dogs . Those are not happy stories.

If you are feeding vegan at least get the dog some plant based omega 3 . Get the dog and yourself some plant based (seaweed) DHA / EPA . At least provide quionoa
or chia seed , some chlorella , some spirulina , SPROUTED grain with inhibiting phytic acids eliminated.
Get some colour , variety into the diet.

I can and do and have cooked vegan , maybe a few days here or there , just because something appeals to me , or when son visits for a week or two. Don't miss meat - but no egg, no butter, no cheese , I mean no cheese that is one of the pleasures .
The occasional faux burger made with crimini mushrooms and black beans , nutritional yeast , maybe with some ground seeds -- really good.
I can do vegetarian, flexitarian. Some awesome books especially the desserts in Kaminsky's Vegan Desserts totally creative Vegan Desserts by Hannah Kaminsky,

Get it Ripe by Steele http://www.amazon.ca/Get-It-Ripe-Cooking-Living/dp/1551522349

Veganize This ! and vegetarian For the Love of Food by Denis Coter http://www.amazon.ca/For-The-Love-Food-Vegetarian/dp/000731275X beautiful .

My shelves have several other titles.

But for a dog , no .
There has been a devolution. We have food sensitivities and itching and dogs not living to the best of their potential because there has been a 50 , 60 year experiment with feeding carnivores , canines, a grain diet . The effects have been accumulative and generational.

Wow, some people can get extreme... I don't actually belong to any vegan community and besides my friend who stirred me towards veganism, everyone else around me is meat and potatoes lovers!

But they don't mind me just like I don't mind them. And they seem to enjoy my cooking.

Funny you mention quinoa, because just recently I started buying it. I'll take your suggestion and I'll start adding it to Nel's meals as well.

 

Deja is not part of this evolutionary change as she still stalks deer and not grasses. Sorry, couldn't resist this one.

 

No problemo... I'm sure Deja have lots of fun chasing deers. Everyone evolves at their own speed, ain't nothing wrong with that. :toasting:

 

Everyone evolves at their own speed, ain't nothing wrong with that. :toasting:

What do you mean by evolve? From what I understand an individual doesn't evolve but evolution occurs when individual genetic mutations develop new traits to a specie over successive generations.

 

I could understand that when you have tried all kinds of meat proteins and the dog is still itching to switch him to a meat free diet to eliminate all meat protein and see how that would work. If, if, if, he improves, then you can gradually try meat again. This would be the only reason to use a vegetarian dog food for dogs. I use Natural Balance veg. food as part of my pet mousies' diet, which they do really well on.

 

She improved on her vegan food literally within days of eating it. I was amazed. I couldn't believe my own eyes.

My neighbors started to complement her shiny fur too.

This has been going on for little over a year. In between this time, few times I gave her regular food (money reasons...) and literally within days the "hot flashes" returned. My husband still argued with me that it was not possible that the food was causing all this..

Some days I even doubted it myself. But after few times of switching her back to the vegan food and noticing the awful rush going away, almost in front of our eyes, I started to believe that I made the right decision.

 

I think, that people will believe what they want to believe.

Personally I am seeing this true in the way my sister justifies her dogs behavior. There is always something new to justify the resource guarding, human guarding, space guarding her dog does. I believe its because she doesn't want to believe and admit to her dog needing training, that her dog isn't "perfect." I think if she realized her dog is just a dog, that she would realize that these behaviors are really just behaviors shaped and formed through genetics, unintentional/intentional shaping of the behavior, etc. That her dog just need training and its not a big deal. There is really no "perfect" dog.

There are even people out there who tell a straight lie, and actually purely do believe in that lie they tell. A form of denial i think. I use to have a friend in college, i would see her do this. She would tell her boyfriend an untrue scenario (untrue because i was there and saw it), she would keep telling other people that same scenario- as untrue as it was, and eventually she started to believe it herself.

After putting your heart into something-truly believing it and living it, and than turning around and realizing maybe its not 100% what you had thought or believed in- can be hard too. Sometimes accepting that would be harder than turning around and saying oh maybe i was wrong, i am a classic case for this!

Although i would love for the whole human race to be vegetarian. I do believe that is not ever going to happen, and am willing to believe that a more likely better scenario would be that the human race gets meat sources from more humane places and has much less of it.

I do believe dogs should eat meat. Cats even more so. I personally do not think its humane to take meat out of the diet of a dog or cat, because they need it for their bodies, on a biological manner-not enjoyment. But i would put this in the same category as a person making their dog obese (intentionally, as in no medical problems were part of it, sometimes thyroid or other diseases can make a dog overweight). Taking meat out of their diet, is an intentional choice of the owner. It doesn't make you a bad person or owner in my eyes- i just dont think its right. Just like the dogs who are overweight that come into work, their owners are like- as the dog wobbles along in the doorway "ohhhh i'm feeding him too much!" Good intentions led bad.. I had an old lady neighbor. She took on this black lab, she was in okay shape. That dog lived with her for a few years- became morbidly obese! She would give her whole hotdogs all the time, unlimited food, etc. That dog was given to another owner, and i saw pictures of the dog after it had passed years after it came to its owner, it looked in great shape! Not that the old lady was bad person, or had bad intentions, it wasn't right.

Thats just my opinion!

 

I sure hope miracle will happen and the dog gonna be fine living a vegan life . I know OP mean the best for her puppy. I hope she would try to work with the dog agAin feeding one type of meat at a time to find which meat her dog is ok with.

 

It sounds like you weren't feeding a quality meat-based kibble before, so I wouldn't blame meat in general for issues like that. Science diet is not quality, it's just a bunch of corn.

To be honest, I think your dog is only doing well because it's being fed a vitamin cocktail overtop of some calories. I think if you tried a vegan diet for your dog that wasn't kibble based, but was produce you bought from the grocery store, you might find that your dog wouldn't do very well.

I would like to see results from a dog being on a raw meat diet and then on a raw vegan diet. No kibble.

 

sounds cultish to me , with an evangelical zeal.

What ever you do make sure you get Vitamin B 12 , for yourself and the dog , so you don't end up with shaky hands and neuropathy , anaemia and depression.

 

So I've been strict vegetarian/vegan for 19 years, and am vegan now. My wife has been mostly vegan/strict vegetarian for 26 years. Our children are being raised vegan on mainly organic whole foods. When I first bought Nara, I also purchased books on turning dogs and cats vegan. I think I knew someone in the punk rock music scene that had a vegan dog and swore by it. I researched the diet and the particular dog foods mentioned and suggested/promoted in the books. After much internal debate, only wanting to do what's best for my dog, and also wanting to do what made the most sense, I decided against turning my dog vegan. I went with my gut and agreed that this is not a normal or natural diet for them. Something in my research just didn't sit right with leaning towards me "forcing" my dog to be vegan when they've never been vegan before in their long domesticated history.

Nara did have issues with itching and scratching and biting and skin rashes. I did a lot of research into causes, like flea or food allergies. Many people pointed to chicken as a common issue for GSDs. We went poultry free (meals and treats included). Didn't seem to help. We tried fish only grain-free kibbles. Didn't help, and the dogs didn't seem to like the taste as much. This led me to look into raw diets. We had a holistic vet who promoted raw and helped to educate me (as did people on this forum), so once I was able to figure out how to feed raw cheaper than kibble, we made the permanent switch. The itching stopped and has not returned. It's been 4 years on raw now with no more rashes and I've never seen the dogs happier when they know it's meal time. They literally jump up and down on hind legs until I have them sit while I place their bowls in front of them, then release them to eat.

I have no issues handling bloody meat, organs and bones, or any of the other "turn-offs" that some vegans link to not wanting to feed pets meat. I just don't eat meat myself based on my own freewill. Since feeding raw, we also supplement with fruits/veggies/table scraps (approved foods for dogs only of course), and the dogs can be picky. Certain dogs will eat certain fruits/veggies, while others will sniff and walk away. Not once have any of the dogs EVER walked away from raw meat. That was my proof right there, solidifying my decision to NOT turn them vegan.

This is my general input to everyone, based on extensive research and years of personal experience, and is not directed to the OP as an attack or criticism or anything negative.

"Hey, we got that P.M.A.!" (Bad Brains - "Attitude" 1982 [PMA = Positive Mental Attitude])

 

Ok, OP, you keep talking about your dog, or all dogs, or just GSD's (I'm not sure what you're targeting) undergoing a spiritual evolution in reference to their eating meat versus being vegan.

I simply cannot see this having any truth, whatsoever. Dogs don't decide what to eat based on a set of values that they've acquired via higher understanding of the world. That just doesn't happen. If it did, no one would ever have to house train their puppy, teach it not to bite people, keep it from escaping the house and getting run over, keep it from killing the neighbor's poodle (b/c it would thus know that to do so would create a moral dilemma)..... I'm not being entirely trite here.

Your dog has absolutely NO clue that it's food doesn't have any meat in it. NONE. I must agree with the others that the improvement in her condition is simply a change in which proteins are in your dog's food, or the components involved in the processing. She's happier b/c she's happy. That's it. Not b/c of some spiritual awakening or evolution.

All that being said, I am glad to see that you're willing to consider feeding her something more appropriate for her biological needs. I too have a dog with an allergy. He's currently recovering from it after being on a kibble diet for 6 weeks. I feed my dogs a raw meat/bone/organ diet and they do very well on it. No skin issues, healthy, no excessive water intake, their teeth look great, and they're excited about their meals. I'm sure you're seeing some of the same in your dog and we feed completely opposite.