[Gracie's My Girl]

I have a female GSD who is still very young. Currently, I am at the point where I am still weighing the options and doing research because I want to do what is best for her. The only thing I know for certain is that I will not consider spaying her until she is at least three years old. I do believe that there is some benefit in leaving all of the hormones intact until the dog has reached maturity.

 

[NancyJ]

My own personal experience with both intact and neutered animals is that I prefer both the physical condition, appearance and temperament of a fully mature intact animal. I believe, after much reading, that removing the gonads is to the long term detriment of the health of the animal and think more and more research studies are bearing that out.

[edit-I am more convinced about keeping a male intact past the age of full maturity than a female - probably won't really study it too much until I get my next female.--I did notice the dog agression come into my own female after she was spayed at 1 year but there could be many other causitive factors]

I do think neutering, particularly at a young age, turns the final dog into a different animal than an intact dog. When I look back, the only male dogs I had temperament issues with were neutered at a young age. My own intact male has had to actually WORK around a female in heat. Most working dogs learn that work trumps reproduction and can focus in this way. Obviously I would not trust the two of them unsupervised!

Having acquired my first dog in 1965 at the age of 10, I have never, nada, not once been responsible for an "oops" pregnancy or any pregnancy for that matter (except for my own )

I think the context of responsible ownership is there are plenty of educated folks on the board who take their responsibility concerning intact animals very seriously , have intact animals, and probably have experiences similar to my own. Education is the answer here.

People need to be allowed to make their own decisions ....... these discussions scare me because they often lead to unenforceable legislation. Otherwise I could care less whether or not someone wanted to neuter THEIR dog.

 

[Freestep]

We're not talking about people whose dogs accidentally have babies. We're talking about intentionally bred, purebred puppies.

You think those puppies don't end up in shelters? Have you actually worked in a shelter or rescue for any amount of time? I'd like to invite you to our local shelter, which right now has about 25 purebred (or at least what appear to be purebred) young Pit Bulls looking for homes, because around here, everyone who owns Pit Bulls seems to think they MUST be bred, and rarely do I see anyone walking a Pit that doesn't have either testicles or sagging teats. Craigslist abounds with ads for "pure bread pitt pups" every single day, many of the ads saying "stop flagging my ad, if i can't find homes for these pups they will go to the pound".

If "intentionally bred, purebred puppies" don't end up homeless, why are there rescue organizations just for purebreds?

 

[CookieTN]

I'd guess it depends on your area. Here looks like most of the dogs come directly from owners who were moving, couldn't keep them anymore, or just wouldn't keep them anymore rather than directly from breeders. My childhood Poodle, which we had bought from my grandmother who used to breed Poodles, was put in the shelter because we had to move to an apartment that didn't allow dogs.
When I volunteered there (for several months) I saw litters of puppies at the shelter as well, but they weren't the majority.

I would say that a puppy from a responsible breeder rarely ends up in the shelter because of return policies.

 

[Emoore]

We're not talking about people whose dogs accidentally have babies. We're talking about intentionally bred, purebred puppies.

To be fair, intentionally bred, purebred puppies generally start trickling into shelters when they're 4-6 months old. By the time they're 8 months to a year that trickle is a flood. In Texas, there are 7 large, well-run rescue groups devoted to rescuing and re-homing purebred German Shepherds and we can't keep up with the ones in shelters. At any given time in Dallas (where I live) there are 5-10 purebred German Shepherds in animal shelters that there are no room for in rescue. Well over half are in the 8 months to 2 years range. (Source: 10 years experience working GSD rescue in TX)

So no, not really puppies, but intentionally bred, purebred dogs do end up in shelters with staggering regularity. They don't generally come directly from breeders; there's a stopover of anywhere from 2 months to a year in a private home. Although my state is about to be flooded with intentionally bred, purebred puppies in rescue as soon as the Alpha-Tex puppymill lawsuit is finished.

 

[CookieTN]

Ah, okay.

 

[GSDolch]

I think most of the general public should spay/neuter their pets. But then I am torn in some ways in regards to freedoms and political matters that can't be got into on the board.

 

[ladyfreckles]

To be fair, intentionally bred, purebred puppies generally start trickling into shelters when they're 4-6 months old. By the time they're 8 months to a year that trickle is a flood. In Texas, there are 7 large, well-run rescue groups devoted to rescuing and re-homing purebred German Shepherds and we can't keep up with the ones in shelters. At any given time in Dallas (where I live) there are 5-10 purebred German Shepherds in animal shelters that there are no room for in rescue. Well over half are in the 8 months to 2 years range. (Source: 10 years experience working GSD rescue in TX)

So no, not really puppies, but intentionally bred, purebred dogs do end up in shelters with staggering regularity. They don't generally come directly from breeders; there's a stopover of anywhere from 2 months to a year in a private home. Although my state is about to be flooded with intentionally bred, purebred puppies in rescue as soon as the Alpha-Tex puppymill lawsuit is finished.

You think those puppies don't end up in shelters? Have you actually worked in a shelter or rescue for any amount of time? I'd like to invite you to our local shelter, which right now has about 25 purebred (or at least what appear to be purebred) young Pit Bulls looking for homes, because around here, everyone who owns Pit Bulls seems to think they MUST be bred, and rarely do I see anyone walking a Pit that doesn't have either testicles or sagging teats. Craigslist abounds with ads for "pure bread pitt pups" every single day, many of the ads saying "stop flagging my ad, if i can't find homes for these pups they will go to the pound".

If "intentionally bred, purebred puppies" don't end up homeless, why are there rescue organizations just for purebreds?

I did not say none of them did. I said that the majority of dogs in shelters were not from purebred breeders. I also provided a reputable statistic to prove my point.

25% is still a significant number, but that is not the majority. It's the minority by a whole lot of dogs. That percentage also covers the dogs that trickle in at 6 months. It's purebred dogs period, not just puppies.

 

[Emoore]

I did not say none of them did. I said that the majority of dogs in shelters were not from purebred breeders. I also provided a reputable statistic to prove my point.

25% is still a significant number, but that is not the majority. It's the minority by a whole lot of dogs. That percentage also covers the dogs that trickle in at 6 months. It's purebred dogs period, not just puppies.

You are correct. Just wanted to clarify for anyone reading who might be under the impression that young healthy purebred dogs rarely end up in shelters.

 

[msvette2u]

I got to thinking about this thread last night and it made me wonder.
So some person, new to GSDs, maybe even it is the 1st dog they owned, comes on here, asking what age they ought to alter their pet.
A few of you are firm believers in waiting as long as possible to alter.
So you advise him/her to wait, of course you need to wait!

But you don't even take into account...because you know nothing about this person...what kind of yard set up they have, if they understand how strong the urge to breed can be (even through a fence, if the dogs can't get under or over), if they are responsible enough to have intact animals, etc.

What do you consider "responsible enough"? Because I feel to recommend everyone wait, is doing a disservice to animals. The people seeking advice on a forum may be more responsible or caring, or whatever, than other owners. But when even "mostly responsible" breeders or merely keepers of intact animals can have an "oops" litter, where does that leave people who really have no intention of breeding animals, but would not spay-abort should their bitch accidentally be bred while waiting for that magic number to arrive where you say it's "safe" to go ahead and spay? And what about their boy dogs who routinely escape the yard? In the thread about the dogs being shot in the woods, many people admitted their dogs often wandered loose, or even escaped and were gone for hours. When you have an intact boy, you may never know how many puppies he's helped create if he's off your property for an hour or two.

And, someone asked why I alter my pets? Because they are first and foremost pets, and I do not wish to live through another heat, knowing that my girls could get pyo, knowing that each heat increases their chance of breast cancer, knowing that even a female spayed late in life can get incontinence (spaying young isn't a guarantee she will no more than spaying late is a guarantee she won't), and just like we vaccinate, the benefits outweigh the risks, IMO and in our living situation.

Just as everyone has to decide for themselves (usually with the assistance of their vet who does like their clients to live long, happy lives), people on here shouldn't be making others to feel like idiots or irresponsible when they make the decision to neuter or spay prior to a year of age.

 

[sitstay]

We're not talking about people whose dogs accidentally have babies. We're talking about intentionally bred, purebred puppies.

Sorry, but there is nothing accidental about a litter of puppies. if you have an intact female and don't take appropriate steps to prevent a pregnancy, there WILL be puppies eventually. Where is the "accident" in that?
Sheilah

 

[Emoore]

I don't know, maybe it's just my perspective, but from reading this thread it seems to me most people are saying, "I personally choose to wait or not neuter at all, but it's a personal decision to be made with your vet and breeder."

I don't think anyone has said, "You must wait to neuter or else you're a bad dog owner." I don't feel like people on this thread are being made to feel like they're bad dog owners for neutering prior to one year. In fact I feel like people who choose to wait are being made to feel like they are irresponsible and don't care about homeless shelter pets. Maybe it's all in perspective.

My friend and neighbor recently got a lab puppy. She's got the Banfield plan and is going to neuter him at 4 months old. I wholeheartedly endorsed this and am loaning her my lampshade collar for his surgery. For her and her dog neutering young was the right choice. For me and my dog it was not.

 

[msvette2u]

Emoore, if you go back and read through other threads, people are routinely told to wait as long as possible, or at least 2yrs. before altering. Usually in their introduction, if not a post or two later when they genuinely want to know. I can't go find them (or don't feel like it right now LOL) but I can remember even a few people who've told newbies their vets don't know anything and just want to make money which is why the vet would alter at 4-6mos. Again, maybe it's not exactly those words but it's really close.

 

[msvette2u]

Sorry, but there is nothing accidental about a litter of puppies. if you have an intact female and don't take appropriate steps to prevent a pregnancy, there WILL be puppies eventually. Where is the "accident" in that?
Sheilah

Very true. I see these advertised on CL all the time, and even claims they'll "use the money they make on the puppies to spay the mom".

Yeah. Makes so much sense to breed a litter so you can afford to spay mama...

 

[CookieTN]

Very true. I see these advertised on CL all the time, and even claims they'll "use the money they make on the puppies to spay the mom".

Yeah. Makes so much sense to breed a litter so you can afford to spay mama...

Wouldn't work out so well if they had to use that money to pay for a C-section instead. Or found that they spent it all on other expenses to do with raising puppies.

 

[msvette2u]

I just wish everyone propagating puppies onto the face of the earth had the "pleasure" of euthanize a litter because nobody will adopt them. Right now on our CL, I see a litter of "pit/rottie/wolf/malamute" puppies. They are being given away at 7 weeks of age. Guess where they'll be in 6mos?

 

[Freestep]

Because I feel to recommend everyone wait, is doing a disservice to animals.

I agree. To recommend waiting to the general pet-owning public pretty much guarantees more accidental litters. You have to assume that the general pet-owning public is NOT knowledgable, experienced, or responsible enough to manage an intact pet--I know this sounds elitist, but I feel qualified to make this statement because I have seen it firsthand, over and over again.

If there weren't so many homeless pets, this wouldn't be an issue. But this effects everyone. Who pays to warehouse, feed, and care for all these homeless animals? Who pays for Animal Control to pick up strays? The taxpayers. Even people who don't care about homeless pets ought to know this.

In a perfect world, spay/neuter would be a personal choice and a non-issue. And in fact it still is a personal choice, not a legislated one. For it to stay that way, I think it's a good idea to encourage the average pet owner to spay/neuter before an accidental litter has a chance to occur.

For those who are experienced, knowledgable, and responsible enough to manage an intact animal, more power to them--I wish all pet owners would be this way.

 

[msvette2u]

To me, it's like telling a newbie to treat (for instance) worms without even seeing a vet, yes it can be done, but should it? Probably not.

And you're right, free - BLS has occurred because people were irresponsible. Mandatory spay/neuter is a knee-jerk reaction to the sheer amount of pets being put to sleep yearly because people are, apparently, irresponsible, and shelters are sick to death of seeing it and having to do it. They'd love to be out of a job!

As for rescue, I keep saying, "we'll not get any more dogs until..." and then we do, because the numbers are just staggering.
When faced with a puppy who is literally starving to death and freezing (night time temp was 18 that night) because her body scale is a ONE...it's really hard to turn our backs.

 

[VonKromeHaus]

There are always 2 sides to the issue. I don't think anyone here is saying that "EVERYONE" should keep their dogs intact. Maybe I'm reading it differently, to me they are saying that it is a personal decision.

I recommend speutering to MOST people I meet in public because they don't appear to be very responsible or educated nor do they want to be. Just because I choose to keep intact animals doesn't mean that I don't push speutering.

 

[selzer]

Personally, I don't think anyone should spay or neuter unless there is a medical condition endangering the life of the pet. I think everyone who owns a dog should be more responsible and spay/neuter is almost touted as a free pass for being irresponsible. People should be more responsible with their pets. They should not allow them to breed indiscriminately. Dog's get hit by cars too. We could do surgery on them removing their legs. Then people would not have to keep them contained, and they wouldn't get run over by cars. If we remove their teeth, they will not be able to bark. If we remove their voice box, they will not be able to bark. Why bother with training or containing when there is a surgery that can take care of it?

People should be more responsible instead of mutilating their pets. I think it is pretty sad that we feel that human beings do not have the ability to be more responsible and therefore everyone should perform surgery on their dogs to prevent pregnancy or any contribution to pregnancy.