[Freestep]

Alright already. Can we get back to dogs.

Well, my question was whether female dogs can get uterine tumors (fibroids) like human females do? While not usually cancerous, fibroids can cause pain, cramping, swelling, and a host of other problems for women and they are quite common. If dogs can suffer from the same kind of thing, it's another good argument for spay.

 

[Alexandria610]

I really don't care either way.....desex your dog....don't desex your dog.
What gets me when I read this thread is some of the language used.
Those who desex their dogs are "irresponsible" "mutiliating" and having their dogs "cut open" I mean really.....if the only way to get your point across is to make people feel like they are doing some barbaric practice then you should just give up

I agree. It really frustrates me. I will more than likely always spay/neuter my animals, but I don't think that those that choose not to are "irresponsible" or "just waiting for an oops litter to happen" either.

When it comes down to it, it is a CHOICE for each and every pet owner. To say things that seem to portray EITHER side in a negative and/or irresponsible manner is quite concerning.

 

[robinhuerta]

I believe the choice to "alter" one's pet is the sole decision of the pet owner ...period.
If an owner decides that it is in the best interest (for all those involved/owner & pet) to alter (for whatever personal reasons)...then they should.

Personally.....I do not alter any of my dogs unless there is a medical reason to do so.....but that is my choice.
*This is one of the responsibilities of animal ownership....either make absolute sure that unwanted breedings do not occur....or take the necessary precautions (alter) to prevent any and all possibilities.*

Accidents do happen, even for the most responsible owners......but there is still no "right or wrong" answer.....

 

[Liesje]

I do not get the "spay/neuter your dog because of generalized pet overpopulation" argument. Most of the stray/at large dogs I've picked up and ones we worked with in the shelter were already spayed and neutered. They were at large because owners were not diligent in training them or containing them, or dumped at the shelter because the owner was not willing to deal with a training or behavioral issue (regardless of intact/altered) or because the owner genuinely could no longer properly care for the animal. I do not think the altered status of the animals is why we have so many unwanted animals, I think that is a problem with people and their attitudes towards pets being disposable or giving up on them way too easily. The dog owners I know that make an informed decision TO spay/neuter their pets are not the people I would predict having oops litters and then dumping them on the side of the road even if they chose NOT to spay/neuter.

 

[Chicagocanine]

I think for the general public, yes. I can imagine how much worse overpopulation would be if more of the mediocre pet owners out there had intact dogs, if dogs in shelters came intact, if all those strays were not spayed/neutered and were instead breeding...

For educated, responsible dog owners who are able to control their dogs properly, IMO it's up to the individual. There are risks and benefits on both sides.

 

[Freestep]

I do not think the altered status of the animals is why we have so many unwanted animals, I think that is a problem with people and their attitudes towards pets being disposable or giving up on them way too easily.

That is definitely true. If all pet owners made a commitment to their animals, dumping wouldn't happen, and far fewer dogs would end up in shelters.

The dog owners I know that make an informed decision TO spay/neuter their pets are not the people I would predict having oops litters and then dumping them on the side of the road even if they chose NOT to spay/neuter.

True again. But even good people have oops litters. Your responsible person will certainly not dump oops puppies by the side of the road, but neither do they have the resources to care for 8-10 pups for the rest of their natural lives, so they have to go somewhere. Even if a good home is found for every last pup, that still displaces 8-10 other pups that are also looking for homes.

Say Joe Schmoe is looking for a puppy. He's about to go through rescue and adopt a GSD mix puppy, but he runs into a nearby breeder that has had an "oops" litter and is selling the puppies cheap. Joe decides to buy one of the oops puppies, which is fine, but what of the pup in rescue? Will someone else come along and adopt it, or will they all do the same thing as joe schmoe?

That's just one scenario. I know there are also many people who only buy pups through breeders and do not, would not consider one from rescue in the first place. That is fine, too. But if our average pet dogs were spayed/neutered, there wouldn't be an opportunity for "oops" litters, and there would be more homes to go around. So I think the reproductive status of pet dogs definitely makes a difference to the number of unwanted animals.

 

[Jack's Dad]

l.

I do not think the altered status of the animals is why we have so many unwanted animals, I think that is a problem with people and their attitudes towards pets being disposable or giving up on them way too easily. The dog owners I know that make an informed decision TO spay/neuter their pets are not the people I would predict having oops litters and then dumping them on the side of the road even if they chose NOT to spay/neuter.

This is why there is no end to this topic. You think (whatever), selzer thinks (whatever) I think (whatever) is the cause of overpopulation. Maybe all of us are right except we only have part of the answer.
There are probably many reasons. I think the push for s/n is because it is something that can be done, not that it is the sole answer.

I mentioned this once before but will repeat for this thread. My wife knows a woman who got a mixed lab for a pet. She was going to do a spay but didn't. The young (less than a year) female saw some action with supposedly a fence jumper and had a litter of 8 or 9 pups. The woman found homes for all of them except one male pup she kept. You guessed it about 6 months to a year later she had four or five more pups but she wasn't sure who daddy was because she was watching her female. She was asked about the male pup but didn't think he was old enough.

I really don't know how you combat this stuff. My wife had talked to her repeatedly when she saw her, about spaying the female. He response was that she didn't have enough money right now.

 

[Liesje]

I think part of the problem is that we are constantly overgeneralizing, even using phrases like "speuter" (which I use on occasion). To me intact males vs intact females are very very different. I see owning intact males as just second nature, part of owning a male (as long as he does not have some rare medical condition or monorchid/cryptorchid), but at least as far as I believe keeping a female intact comes with greater medical risk to the dog. I can't say I am for or against "speuter" because I am against neutering males for no reason but also against keeping females intact who are not to be bred so my absolute 100% solution for not producing oops litters is to not own female dogs. As far as I am concerned that's about an absolute guarantee as it gets unless two males can start reproducing.

People need to be educated and make informed decisions when it comes to their pets and not just be told to do one thing because it's a sure-fire guarantee. How does that educate anyone or actually help solve this problem? To me it is like people who have their dogs' teeth filed to prevent fight injuries. These are just band-aids that only apply to that one dog and that one person at that one time and don't address the root problem.

 

[Liesje]

Say Joe Schmoe is looking for a puppy. He's about to go through rescue and adopt a GSD mix puppy, but he runs into a nearby breeder that has had an "oops" litter and is selling the puppies cheap. Joe decides to buy one of the oops puppies, which is fine, but what of the pup in rescue? Will someone else come along and adopt it, or will they all do the same thing as joe schmoe?

That's just one scenario. I know there are also many people who only buy pups through breeders and do not, would not consider one from rescue in the first place. That is fine, too. But if our average pet dogs were spayed/neutered, there wouldn't be an opportunity for "oops" litters, and there would be more homes to go around.

Can you expound on this? It sounds as if you are saying that the buyer is only concerned with demand and price?

 

[Stella's Mom]

I have not spayed my female. She is rounding off her first heat now. I don't plan on spaying her in the near future and I don't plan on breeding her.

She is in the house under supervision at all times or on a leash outside with us. There is no way we will have an oops litter. Folks around here don't leave their dogs off leashes.

The only way she would have an ooops litter is if I disobeyed club rules at the Shutzhund field and one of the numerous intact GSD male dogs jumped the fence as it borders the field and is quite low. They are beautiful imported dogs for sure, but I am not looking to breed. Another member bred with a dog there and her female is a SCh3 as is the Sire and they still have 3 pups left even though they are not overly expensive and quite nice looking.

 

[Freestep]

Can you expound on this? It sounds as if you are saying that the buyer is only concerned with demand and price?

No, I'm saying it's just one scenario that the average pet buyer might present. I have seen it before (many times in fact) where the buyer was all lined up for a rescue or pound puppy and then ended up buying from a BYB or "oops" litter instead.

Your average pet buyer does not do a lot of research; they buy based on whim and whatever happens to present itself. That doesn't apply to most of the people here, but it does apply to the majority of pet owners that I see... and I see a lot of them.

 

[Jack's Dad]

No, I'm saying it's just one scenario that the average pet buyer might present. I have seen it before (many times in fact) where the buyer was all lined up for a rescue or pound puppy and then ended up buying from a BYB or "oops" litter instead.

Your average pet buyer does not do a lot of research; they buy based on whim and whatever happens to present itself. That doesn't apply to most of the people here, but it does apply to the majority of pet owners that I see... and I see a lot of them.

Aint that the truth. Around here we have people who sell puppies in front of large retail stores. They almost never fail to sell them. How much sense does that make? You got to Target for a few items and come home with a puppy.

 

[sitstay]

This. I had it at the suggestion of my gyno because of consistent LONG and heavy periods, polyps, etc...I was 38. Done with kids, etc.

BEST **** THING I'VE EVER DONE.

God, truer words have never been spoken! I had no idea how much of a physical drain menstruation was on my body until I had a hysterectomy at the age of 36. It really was the best choice for me.
Sheilah

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

I do not get the "spay/neuter your dog because of generalized pet overpopulation" argument. Most of the stray/at large dogs I've picked up and ones we worked with in the shelter were already spayed and neutered. They were at large because owners were not diligent in training them or containing them, or dumped at the shelter because the owner was not willing to deal with a training or behavioral issue (regardless of intact/altered) or because the owner genuinely could no longer properly care for the animal. I do not think the altered status of the animals is why we have so many unwanted animals, I think that is a problem with people and their attitudes towards pets being disposable or giving up on them way too easily. The dog owners I know that make an informed decision TO spay/neuter their pets are not the people I would predict having oops litters and then dumping them on the side of the road even if they chose NOT to spay/neuter.

And this is in Michigan.

Now go to a shelter in the Northeast.

Then go to a shelter in the South.

By region, probably even by zip codes, you are going to see variances in the number of intact animals you see due to policies and education.

There are entire litters dropped off at shelters - I try not to get the mass emails about these things - with 80-90 new dogs a week, including litters. And bottom line, you are right, it is the person.

But for those people, if you were able to spay and neuter their dogs, and any future dogs they get, those dogs are going to stop reproducing, and there will be less dogs in the shelters, being shot, dropped off at parks, etc. But you can't, so you have to try to do educate which helps.

Per capita shelter intake and euthanasia have been in a steady decline nationwide for the past several decades. Research indicates that the main reason for this decline is the increasing incidence of spayed and neutered animals in the pet population (Zawistowski et al., 1998; Irwin, 2001; Clancy & Rowan, 2003). In fact, the veterinary community recently formally acknowledged the importance of safe, efficient, accessible sterilization programs as the “best antidote to the mass euthanasia of cats and dogs resulting from overpopulation” (Looney et al., 2008). There is, however, variation in shelter intake and euthanasia rates across communities as well as a difference between that for dogs and cats. As a result, many communities are currently searching for methods to reach those who are still contributing disproportionately to companion animal overpopulation.

ASPCA | Position Statement on Mandatory Spay/Neuter Laws

There are anti spay and neuter groups. It started with people who were engaged in beastiality. Spaying and neutering animals reduced their pool of available victims. So they started advocating and getting information on keeping animals intact or doing limited procedures.

Then the backlash began against the spaying and neutering of animals because of mandatory regulation attempts. SO groups like the NAIA began to produce information against spaying and neutering. Recognize those initials yet? That's the PDF that everyone uses as evidence that spaying and neutering is bad. Who are they? http://www.naiaonline.org/about/index.htm Do you think they have a bias? The AKC sends out action alerts against MSN laws and yet are okay with Hunte Corp. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Hunte+Corporation+

I am not for mandatory spay and neuter because policies like that can never work in the way we want them to. But I think people should look at these groups just like they look at HSUS, etc. Who exactly are all of these groups advocating for?

 

[Dainerra]

Aint that the truth. Around here we have people who sell puppies in front of large retail stores. They almost never fail to sell them. How much sense does that make? You got to Target for a few items and come home with a puppy.

on Black Friday, there were FIVE different people selling puppies in the wal-mart parking lot. GSDs, Boxers, labs, yorkies, yorkie-poos, pitbulls, and malti-poos.

 

[RocketDog]

^ Same here. And yet buying from a reputable breeder is "encouraging puppy mills and the deaths of innocent pound dogs". Why do people not realize that buying puppies this way is one of the worst things they can do, especially if they're so concerned with pound/shelter/rescues.

 

[Mrs.K]

Aint that the truth. Around here we have people who sell puppies in front of large retail stores. They almost never fail to sell them. How much sense does that make? You got to Target for a few items and come home with a puppy.

Isn't that illegal?

 

[Dainerra]

Isn't that illegal?

only if the store has a policy saying that it is, at least here it isn't. That probably varies by state/city. The people here are actually on an empty lot in front of Wal-Mart, beside the gas station. You get some people selling mutts for $50 or so and other people selling "registered" dogs for several hundred

We also see a lot of people who have litters because "I didn't think he'd do it with his Mom/sister!!"

 

[Jessiewessie99]

I was with my friend and we were walking into the mall and there were 2 girls selling 2 Maltese puppies for $200. Its not like they needed the money. Sure the puppies were cute, but no sorry, I prefer to spend my money where its going to good use not someone's pocket. Its sad though, it was really cold too. =(

 

[selzer]

I think I have been misunderstood. I think it should be a choice and no one is better or worse than the next for whichever they choose, to spay/neuter, to not spay/neuter.

I will not encourage anyone, not even people who are average dog-owners, to do so because of my personal beliefs about it. That does not mean I am militant in trying to stop people from doing it. That is their choice.

Most of my puppy buyers spay or neuter. In the documentation that goes with the dog, I give the pros and cons and leave it up to the buyers. Most of them call me and tell me when they do it. I never discourage them from doing it. I may have encouraged waiting with some people, but that is even rare.

I get upset when people marry the terms "responsible dog owner" to spay/neuter. I do not feel that people are more or less responsible for choosing to spay or neuter or choosing not to spay or neuter.

I do not like when people suggest spay/neuter to prevent roaming.

As for surgery to prevent bloating in a dog with a close relative that bloated, I don't know. I have never dealt with bloat yet. I get colonoscopies because my mother had colo-rectal cancer. I might not have done so at this point, if I had not had any symptoms, and did not have a close relative that had the problem. I think that is a bit different than spaying to prevent a problem that is not necessarily genetic, just a possible female issue.

So if Jenna nearly died of pyometra, would I spay her offspring to prevent pyometra? Probably not. As far as I know there is not a genetic component that makes some females more likely to have the condition than another. Whereas, bloat may have a genetic component, or just the progeny have the same shape form that might contribute to bloat, may make it much more likely for them to have the condition.

So I am not sure, but I think I would be more likely to do a surgery to try to prevent bloating if a close relative bloated, than to spay or neuter because there is a higher rate of mammary tumors, testicular cancer, and pyometra in intact animals.