Here is my question:

If you have to ask what to select for, are you proficient enough to handle a true personal protection dog?

 

Um, no. Nor are you qualified to attempt to breed them imo.

 

None of this is like a medical test such as an EKG that shows A fib or a biopsy that shows cancer. Any tests are simply snapshots and indications of potential strengths and weaknesses. Some can be very obvious, but berno, you are still leaving out the training effect. Tests can give you an idea of aptitude but they are not definitive in terms of actual ability. You are still looking for a shortcut instead of hands on experience and observation. Until you get past that mindset you are just spinning your wheels.

 

I realize vpat is not a title unto itself but @ 49 days, it's all the breeder has

you can't grow them all out yourself, so you just try to put the right ones in the right homes

 

Berno, darn it, you select a bold, forward, confident puppy, then you imprint, shape, and create the dog you're after.

Of course you knew this coming in, and it never ceases to amaze me how a thread like this can generate so many posts!

Your mixed breed mongrel puppies are very cute! Watch them, you'll know the best protection prospects...

 

Thank you, Mister Sir! mutts are always cute @ 10 days old....

if anyone cares or dares to hazard even the foggiest guess at what those coats/colors might do, I'd love to know? totally unfamiliar type to me? quite unlike anything I've seen here before? the rusty metal background is a little misleading. That one seems awfully red to me?

Mods if it's possible to edit the title to this thread and rename it "trainwreck" I'd appreciate it. Holey cats! that's it!! Von Zugwrack!!!

 

Thank you, Mister Sir! mutts are always cute @ 10 days old....

if anyone cares or dares to hazard even the foggiest guess at what those coats/colors might do, I'd love to know? totally unfamiliar type to me? quite unlike anything I've seen here before? the rusty metal background is a little misleading. That one seems awfully red to me?

How would we know what colors/coats when we don't even know what they are.

Yes all puppies are cute, all baby animals are cute. Baby gators are adorable, doesn't mean I think people should be breeding gators. On the other hand, you were looking for a protection candidate right? Something about prey drive and full bites?

 

Berno,
Can you be honest about your reticence to learn about training and reading dogs as they develop in response to training? I can appreciate a lack of resources but you are entertaining fantasy not reality. I have seen some pretty mediocre dogs progress very nicely with good training. Granted, everyone wants the dog with the ultimate genetics for your goals, but that is not how the world works except for a few rare exceptions. You have to put in the work and have access to good training.

 

not how the world works except for a few rare exceptions. You have to put in the work and have access to good training.

agreed, Chip. I don't expect we're dealing with "rare exceptions" by any stretch of the imagination. Just typical mutts. "Half german shepherd." No more, no less. But I hope we'll both be surprised by what they accomplish between now and day 49. I amaze myself all the time, so that half of the equation is pretty well in the bag. Not near as confident about your end of it, but I'll do my best.

 

Your silence is deafening.

 

This is a mix between your DDR boy and that Italian terrier dog you pictured earlier?

 

You are deluding yourself that some type of early special imprinting and some type of outcrossing breeding will result in an advanced mutant. Genetics and early imprinting are important but sustained, good training is what yields the best results. You clearly are not willing to put in the work. I don’t even think your intention is to have a well trained dog.

 

I don’t even think your intention is to have a well trained dog.

I'm definitely on the lookout for genetic obedience here

This is a mix between your DDR boy and that Italian terrier dog you pictured earlier?

this is the dam. Rather than insisting what I think I know she is, if I keep back a pup, I'll double dna (mars and embark) and insist on whichever result I like best.

 

pups will grip jute when the time comes, but that alone does not a good dog make

I'm just a guy with a yard. This is just an experiment in utility. Not a big deal.

 

He says but doesn’t do. Show some vids and ask questions and for advice. Learning how to train dogs is very challenging and a never ending endeavor due to dogs being individuals and new techniques always coming out.

 

ok so we're trying to select a 49 day old pup to attempt to train

until then it's about exposing/conditioning/imprinting the puppy in front of you

 

I don’t know what that video was. I thought I saw a British flag on a tank. The wall dogs were not good dogs. You could see that from the dog’s conformation and body language. They were just a deterrent. Another example of the hype of the early DDR dogs. They were from a communist regime. Do you trust them? They faked hip ratings and other things. That dog did not look confident at all. There probably were some very strong DDR dogs, but not the majority and some of their attraction was likely for to bone, pigment and sharpness.

 

You are about pickin’ a pig in a poke.

 

I haven't gone to all the trouble for that. Dam brings the prey, agility, genetic obedience, etc. I firmly believe gsd is the most advanced, refined, accomplished breed ever created by man. However little igor leaves a lot to be desired. The sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent. So we'll see if I get here?

DOB november 16, vpat january 4. Let's just see how they score? and what they can do in the meantime?

 

You have an 8 month old dog, from lines that are notorious for being slow to mature, that you haven’t worked in the drives that are known for, and you call him lacking? I’m not even sure I would say you’ve worked him at all. While most of the East German lines today aren’t really my taste in temperament and drive, I’d say your assessment is naive at best. You’re never going to truly understand going about it the way you are.

 

You just contradicted yourself and are all in your head instead of hands on.

 

I'm sure those lines are just what the doctor ordered for a whole lot of people, BH. I'm not attempting to impugn the ddr tradition, or any other, for that matter. You might say I'm deliberately watering those genes down. Attempting to compromise some of that real ddr seriousness for the sake of utility/versatility here on my site. Gimme some prey. A quick learner that likes to chase and bite after the toys. Like the gsd I used to know, once upon a time.

 

I don’t buy much into the belief that the DDR lines/pseudo DDR lines are late to mature. I believe it is more accurate to say they are more defensive and often lacking prey need to be more mature to be worked in defense and then there is the issue of finding someone who knows how to do it correctly.

 

The ones I have seen with high prey drive weren't displaying it when they were younger. I do agree with most of what you said.

 

Lack of prey drive can mean several things. I often see dogs that don't or won't play with their owners that can be encouraged to play. Drive building is sometimes just an exercise in showing the dog how to play and making it rewarding. Sometimes it's a relationship thing where the dog is worried about making mistakes or becoming excited.

Got some video of little Igor failing at tug or flirt pole?

 

Got some video of little Igor failing at tug or flirt pole?

I really didn’t want to talk about little igor von zugwrack. I’ve done everything I could to avoid it. Last thing I wanna do is brag on my gsd because in my mind he was supposed to be just a “core sample” of the breed at large. No better or worse than anyone else’ gsd. You know he must have AMAZING genetic obedience because I’m still feeding him. You know he must have never even thought about hurtin’ my barn cat, let alone any other animal on property, either. I’m pretty sure as far as “real ddr” goes, I got a “good one.”

96 days old

97 days old

98 days old

99 days old

112 days old

Little igor never even knew the meaning of the word fail. That’s not the problem. The problem is, he don’t know the meaning of the word game, either. It’s not a game to him. I’m no expert about what correct gsd temperament is supposed to be, but I am the world’s foremost leading expert about what berno’s dog is supposed to be. In the mind of the great berno’s dog “it’s just business, not personal.” It’s a game, and the more you agitate and the harder you pressure, the harder they play. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY of all, it don’t make ‘em truly aggressive. I got no use for that here. The berno dog readily trains to behave aggressively, and LOVES to play the game, but isn’t truly aggressive at all. At least, not in comparison to little igor von zugwrack. There’s no “fixing” little igor’s temperament with training. The more we train, the more aggressive he’ll get. That’s how he was born, and that’s what some people need. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

I’m not a cop, not a soldier, not a sport. I’m strictly private sector, just like my friend here. This to me illustrates the best possible real world protection outcome. Three against one, dog wins, nobody got shot, nobody got bit, hecktor had great time at that party, and they all lived happily ever after.

I’ve had both kinds of dogs over the years, and that’s the kind I like. “Just business, not personal.” Obviously that temperament occurs within the breed, and that’s what I’m after from little igor’s genetics. Good grips are not elusive at all if you start @ 28 days old and bring it right on up. My muttpups will grip, but again, that alone does not a great berno’s dog make.

I guess I kinda hope to like “open source” the rearing of these pups because I think by putting it all out here, eventually people who know a thing or two about it are going to speak up. I’m hoping to smoke a few real old time breeder’s out of the woodwork, maybe hand a precious nugget or two of knowledge down to the rest of us. I don’t know everything. I do know that when you get to where you think you know everything, it’s prolly time to quit.

I wanna hear from old show breeders and pet breeders too. Anybody raised a bunch of litters over the years. You’re the ones who know what kind of pups turned into what kind of adults. How do you spot a good tooth clicker early on? Don’t be shy. Tell me what you know. We got a couple weeks to kill until wean here. Hey, Khawk! You lurkin’? Tell us some old “dead dog chronicle” stories!! Pleeeeease?!?!

 

when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.

but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?

European bloodlines, certified hips, look for an x ray. Large GSDS in America can be prone to hip problems.

 

@David Winners I missed a whole lot of posts Pre Thanksgiving. Happy Birthday! My dad was also a vet. Did some important things in a big war and came home again, but rarely talked about it.

 

My dad was also a vet. Did some important things in a big war and came home again, but rarely talked about it.

Mine was too. One tour in Korea, and 2 in Viet Nam. He would always tell me the funny things that happened. I loved to listen to his stories. He was an aviator, and retired as an LTC. Several years back, he started writing down some of those war stories, along with a pretty detailed account of his military career.. We called it his book. My nephew has the original, but I have a pdf of it. I’m so very glad he did that. I was actually looking through it earlier this morning. When I read it, I can hear him telling the stories. I miss him.

 

...

 

My dad was a lieutenant in Korea and involved in the Pork Chop Hill situation. He never spoke of it until around a year before he passed when we were going through some old photos. Funny stories and tragic ones. I have his discharge papers and photos.

 

There are reasons we don't tell anything but the funny and boring stuff. It's hard to talk about, and it's even harder to see judgement in the eyes of someone you care about. I don't care what anyone says, until you are faced with the reality of killing others day after day, you can't understand the mental ramifications, and part of you will be horrified at the things that happen in war.

My official excuse for not finishing the book is the DoD. And that is partly true. A larger aspect to me finishing that book is rehashing that year in detail. That's something I'm not sure I want to do.

 

I found a long and beautiful story about Fama online. That is your book. Everyone should read it.

 

I wish I could hear stories. Good or bad.
I have a grandfather who was killed in WWII. I never met him, heck my father never met him. He was 28 when he was killed. No one talked about him, I did not have his real name until I was in my 30's. I was in my 40's when I found out where he was buried. I spent years fighting for his service records, finally got them. I don't even have a picture of him.
A man who is part of my family died and everyone just forgot he existed.
@David Winners I am just gonna send you a hug. Because everyone needs hugs.

 

I wish I could hear stories. Good or bad.
I have a grandfather who was killed in WWII. I never met him, heck my father never met him. He was 28 when he was killed. No one talked about him, I did not have his real name until I was in my 30's. I was in my 40's when I found out where he was buried. I spent years fighting for his service records, finally got them. I don't even have a picture of him.
A man who is part of my family died and everyone just forgot he existed.
@David Winners I am just gonna send you a hug. Because everyone needs hugs.

Thanks