mainly as I said, because it's "strictly formulated" and therefore if done correctly, objective and scientifically sound

level playing field, each pup get's a little scorecard, kinda like a round of golf...

 

If anyone knows of a better standardized curriculum, I'd LOVE to see it, by all means

 

What part of training a living being with thoughts, emotions, drive is truly objective?

Then why use an objective test?

Work the dog you have. Find out what you like and don't like about that dog. Rinse and repeat. Even better if you get to work lots of dogs, or at least watch them work, in the interim.

 

Work the dog you have. Find out what you like and don't like about that dog.

good advice, but again, purely hypothetical op wherein an "only puppy" is being shopped locally

 

the art of GSD schH1 by [your name here]

chapter one, page one, choosing a 7 week old pup

go

 

Go work your dog and learn about GSDs. You sound like a supply clerk that wants to go on patrol because he read the Ranger handbook.

 

thanks for the input. Very helpful. But I don't think she's ready yet

 

thanks for the input. Very helpful. But I don't think she's ready yet

View attachment 565927

View attachment 565927

Says the BYB. What have you done with her sire besides evaluate his ability to withstand austere conditions and bite mechanics?

 

The thing is dogs are living creatures, not golf balls.
In theory Sabi was not the pup I would have selected, and in practice she lacked the drive to be a great working dog. She was a quiet pup, a thinker. You could see the wheels turning at 7 weeks. She watched everything, and I do mean everything. She wasn't given to the normal puppy outbursts or foolishness, but she was fearless and adventurous. In theory I would have passed her by in selection. She taught me an important lesson. There is an essential something about some dogs that is not quantifiable. She proved to be the best dog I ever put hands on. I could have sold her a dozen times. My boss swore the only flaw she had was that he didn't own her.
You can only use a clipboard so far, the rest is instinct and sometimes just luck. You can study the genetics, you can rate the responses but the rest is seeing, really seeing, the animal itself.
And a 12 gauge? Trans Am backfired next to Sabs and Lex when my hubby tried to start it. Sabi was about a year old. Sabi moved closer, didn't even flinch. They don't require exposure, sound sensitivity shows early.

 

You can only use a clipboard so far, the rest is instinct and sometimes just luck.

agreed

And a 12 gauge? Trans Am backfired next to Sabs and Lex when my hubby tried to start it. Sabi was about a year old. Sabi moved closer, didn't even flinch. They don't require exposure, sound sensitivity shows early.

inherent sound sensitivity shows before vpat, but again, it's up to the adopter to follow through w/ regular exposure

the same may be said of the sporting group. not a big deal.

 

well I bred him? the sum of the genetics are greater than that expressed in a parent, but that's another thread.

 

Oh of course! You bred a dog that you were unhappy with his prey drive and have not trained to do anything to a dog of another breed that you found impressive in grip.

Does that sound like a roadmap to success when you really think about it?

Do you think successful breeders in the venue you wish to perform choose breeding stock in this manner?

 

this is my venue, but I don't understand what any of that has to do with the op?

and what do you mean "austere" conditions? you always say that but I never know what you're talking about? like I'm supposed to make a pet out of him?

 

You defined the venue. SCH/PSA.

 

right. Op. theoretical. Not me. I'm a vpat guy. everybody knows that.

 

when shopping 7 - 8 week old litters for a potential protection candidate, what should one look for? In an individual pup, I mean. Obviously start with reputable breeder and proven working ped.

but when it comes time to pick one pup out of a good litter, what should one look for?

see? "reputable." as in theoretical. hypothetical even

don't make me get out my pirate flag again

 

see? "reputable." as in theoretical. hypothetical even

don't make me get out my pirate flag again

You didn't say "reputable" you said reputable. You didn't say hypothetical or theatrical. If you want information, you have to provide information, not hyperbole or conjecture.

 

maybe I took it wrong?

 

The vpat is as useless as teats on a boar.

 

Since David mentioned it. The puppy puppy call that you use to entice them to come/follow. In my 50 years on the planet I have had one pup ignore that noise. One that would actually romp off in the other direction. She is laying by my feet. It makes her exceptionally difficult to work with. So any dog that ignores that call probably isn't a candidate for anything.

 

To the OP, I just saw a post on IG from a breeder (I think reputable) who are getting 4 Czech males imported this week claiming they are great PD prospects. They are asking too much money (between $4700 and $5500)...don't know why so much.
Anyway, PM if you want the breeder's name.

 

@ 49 dys old, vpat is all I got? I can only screen and expose "sound sensitivity" up to there. As with the gundog breeds/sporting group, I certainly won't begin with a gunshy pup, but I follow through w/ lots of exposure.

neighbor of mine got a golden last summer, never exposed. Early this summer did a little trap shooting, dog didn't know quite what to make of it. Couple weeks later brought his young grandkids up for some more trap shooting, dog took right to it. And they all lived happily ever after. The end.

I keep reading the phrase "over the top prey" but I don't think I've ever actually seen that myself here? anybody care to define "bite drive" vs "prey drive" for me?

 

My byb mix has never flinched at fireworks or gun shots. I don’t necessarily dislike a dog that is momentarily startled and recovers (I have one like that now) but my other 5 dogs that I’ve had over the years that are not bothered at all without any work done to ensure that, well I’d vastly prefer that from both an owning and breeding to pass on genetics standpoint.

I would imagine but I could be wrong because I have no experience. That you would want the puppy the least reactive to sounds or interested vs. scared because as another said if you have to train/manage behaviors they don’t just go away. And especially with something like that you never know when it might make its appearance. You don’t want it to be when a guy has just shot a gun off next to you. Or you happen to be out walking/working etc. when a thunderstorm starts. Drive can overcome sound sensitive if it’s high enough, but only to a degree and only when that drive is engaged and it can still snap a dog out of drive momentarily. (Sound sensitive border collies come to mind.)

 

Bite drive is something you just made up. I’ve never seen anyone here use it. When I say prey drive, I’m referring to the dogs desire to chase, grab, and kill. Here are some dogs with over the top drive.

 

Bite drive is something you just made up.

no, BH, I don't make stuff up

"bite drive" was recently mentioned by a reputable source, but I don't know the difference between it and prey?

 

prior to wean I create a "happy time" association between target practice and feeding time. Works well.

@ wean, or perhaps shortly thereafter, any individual fails to get with the program is dismissed as unsuitable

sooner the better. get it over with. Time is finite. Resources are finite. You can't devote ether or to an unsuitable individual without putting the rest @ a disadvantage. Do your duty and put it behind you.

 

prior to wean I create a "happy time" association between target practice and feeding time. Works well.

@ wean, or perhaps shortly thereafter, any individual fails to get with the program is dismissed as unsuitable

sooner the better. get it over with. Time is finite. Resources are finite. You can't devote ether or to an unsuitable individual without putting the rest @ a disadvantage. Do your duty and put it behind you.

Wait, are you talking about actually culling puppies that don’t meet your ridiculous standards?

 

He says some variation of this in multiple videos.

 

What is the big deal about VPAT? It’s only as good as the person doing the test. It’s only one small tool in evaluating a puppy. I never asked the last breeder if she used it. I didn’t care. I would not have ignored the results, though, if they were offered. If a breeder knows their own lines and what they are breeding for and what they are getting, they don’t need an unstandard standarized test.

 

the big deal about vpat is, if you use it to select, and then backross/linebreed a couple/few generations accordingly, you get consistency

but yeah, without the backcross/linebreed, SUDDENLY the big "gsd crapshoot" everybody keeps talking about makes all the sense in the world. Watching ellis' vid just flipped that lightswitch in berno's mind here

and all that makes berno's experiments even more funner

Studies of modern Italian dog populations reveal multiple patterns for domestic breed evolution

Through thousands of years of breeding and strong human selection, the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) exists today within hundreds of closed populations throughout the world, each with defined phenotypes. A singular geographic region with broad diversity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think I might cross little igor to a proven locally adapted strain of maremma, backcross the offspring both ways, and recombine the results. I saw it done successfully with wgsd x kuvasz when I was a kid.

 

Didn’t watch the video but have heard Ellis talk about bite drive where a dog is almost obsessed and gets great satisfaction from biting objects and keeping them in his mouth. More of a Mal thing but I know of one GSD that would repeated destroy the black Kongs in a day or two. While technically it might not be a drive, Ellis is very good with coming up with descriptive traits that are operationally defined. We have a very nice XMal in our club that is social but at risk for biting in certain situations if he doesn’t have a ball in his mouth.

 

...

 

lovely to finally see you weigh in on the subject, Countess...

slightly OT, but I've seen MAWL in her jammies!!!

just sayin'...