Ya know, if you take two puppies away from a litter, they get their confidence from each other, and it isn't fair to compare them to a single puppy who is stripped of dam and littermates. A puppy knowns nothing but his dam and littermates and the people that occasionally are there. He is NEVER alone. He is totally dependent on the litter, even if the dam has been removed by eight weeks. Taking a pup in its litter to the vet, is almost no stress at all. Because the other puppies are there. Even if it is just one. Remove that one, and the pup has to totally rely on itself and this person it hasn't decided yet is trustworthy. Crying and distress is NORMAL. The pup has lost its whole world, and now it has to rely on itself and it will get a burst of confidence, but its first response and it can last a couple days, is to be distressed. And that two pups can be take anywhere and be super stable doesn't mean anything. Then separating the last two for their separate homes, that may be fine because the pup has already left the majority of the pups behind, and didn't die. Now if the pup is added to another family with dogs, he can quickly find his place in his new "litter." A pup all alone is a different story.

 

I would give it some time and introduced her slowly to situations to see how she reacts.

 

OP, I know of a breeder that had a couple of litters by Zako Max. It seems that he is known for producing pups like yours. Last I heard they responded well to exposure. If I think about it, I will ask him how those pups turned out as adults.

 

I would very much appreciate that.

 

I'm going to suggest that one possibility to her reaction could have been situational to the strangers body language and emotional states. it is often stated that if a handler is stressed, tense, unsure, lacks confidence it will travel down the leash. It can work both ways. Dogs, even young pups, can sense and smell the things and people around them. It's covid and people in general have tense body languages when they are out in public. Everyone is thinking stay distanced, don't get to close to anyone and don't let them get close to me. So even though you were distanced it doesn't mean the other people weren't feeling anxiety about being in the store themselves and giving off strong stress odor your pup with a much better nose then us human could smell and sense. It's just a thought, something to consider. These are trying times and many people really are anxious, stressed and nervous when they are out places.
I can't tell you if this is a sign of problems down the road or not. But I would rest, regroup and give it another try with a different setting. Like others have suggested, maybe outside where strangers are likely to be more relaxed themselves.

 

I'm going to suggest that one possibility to her reaction could have been situational to the strangers body language and emotional states. it is often stated that if a handler is stressed, tense, unsure, lacks confidence it will travel down the leash. It can work both ways. Dogs, even young pups, can sense and smell the things and people around them. It's covid and people in general have tense body languages when they are out in public. Everyone is thinking stay distanced, don't get to close to anyone and don't let them get close to me. So even though you were distanced it doesn't mean the other people weren't feeling anxiety about being in the store themselves and giving off strong stress odor your pup with a much better nose then us human could smell and sense. It's just a thought, something to consider. These are trying times and many people really are anxious, stressed and nervous when they are out places.
I can't tell you if this is a sign of problems down the road or not. But I would rest, regroup and give it another try with a different setting. Like others have suggested, maybe outside where strangers are likely to be more relaxed themselves.

Dogs do not rely on sight as much as humans, but facial expressions they do note, and I wonder what masks are doing to pups. I found that I had to train myself to smile before calling Babs to me in Obedience to get her to run right in and sit in front. They read our faces.

 

I think you should contact your breeder for some advice on the situation,
I will say this though my older GSD Clay was like this as a 9 week old puppy...he never out grew it and it actually became worse then better now he's definitely manageable he didn't come from a reputable breeder though...
raising a fearful dog is a lot of heartache and but very rewarding that being said I wouldn't whant to do it again,
It's the reason I returned a pup before I got Raven.

I took her Raven into pets@Home not long after we got her I couldn't keep her from saying hello to everyone! We broke all the coronavirus rules that day (woops)

Whatever you decide wishing you all the best x

 

Well it's 4am and still no sleep. Put her in the kennel beside my bed. No whining in that one but she was flipping and flopping and panting so out to pee and now she is sound asleep on the couch beside me. No fussing at all.
I'm baffled by the HD incident. I took her because I thought she could handle it. She handled a car ride (almost 2hr) home , car door opening and closing right beside her, big wooden gate to get in my yard, stairs, objects in yard, banging dishes,dishwasher, loud tv, swinging outdoor swing, tossing flat cardboard box/walking on it etc with not a flinch and healthy curiosity. If she was slightly startled she recovered immediately and charged forward to check it out.
At HD she was fine in the parking lot despite some cars and folks, She was a little surprised when the automatic doors opened but recovered immediately and trotted along with me in a cheerful and curious way. We walked almost to the end of one aisle and a guy walked across the aisle at the end. He walked briskly and he was kind of swinging his arms. He had some kind of tool or something in the arm closest to Jaimie. This was maybe 8ft away. I suspect he was in a rush since it was almost closing. That was when she back peddled. Everything after that ie. couple walking by, lady with a cart compounded it. (She had seen a couple people with carts before we went in and wasn't phased). I wish I had picked her up and left at that point. I honestly thought I wasn't supposed to do that. That "coddling" a fear would reinforce it.
I hate that she didn't want to come out of the car when we got home. After I scooped her out of the car we played "chase the branch" in the yard so she doesn't think only bad stuff happens when you leave the car.
That is as precisely as I remember it. Maybe you guys see something I don't.
For what it's worth when I met her she warmed up to me immediately and was super lovey when I held her...and I was a stranger in a big winter jacket....of course she was on home turf.
I really don't know where to take her today to people watch that doesn't have a lot of dogs. It's not even super safe to hang out in the front yard because there are a lot of dogs in the neighborhood and people think it's okay to let them walk on and crap on your lawn. At least they pick it up.

As for her needing to be alone in her kennel at times for an hour or two.... it is simply a matter of there are times I need to work. I'm talking maybe 2 hrs a day when she needs to be on her own and not screaming. I am alone with her. I have no living family, no close friends and no one who can watch her. It's just me and Jaimie.
So it's nothing to do with being uptight about dogs in the bedroom or whatever. My past dogs slept in bed with me and on the couch with me and were a part of everything I did. I would love to just be close to Jaimie 24/7 but the reality is that I need to pay rent , bills and feed us. And the breeder basically said that having her sleep in a kennel beside me will make it harder those times when she needs to be alone.
I am going to test today if she does better just loose in the downstairs bathroom with her cage just open and her toys in there. I have one in downstairs bathroom and one upstairs in my bedroom.
They are both 32"wide X 42" long X 32" high.

 

I wish I had picked her up and left at that point. I honestly thought I wasn't supposed to do that. That "coddling" a fear would reinforce it.

I've heard that before too, and I completely disagree. Socialization should be a positive experience, if it's not it's doing more harm than good. I agree with letting a puppy quietly observe new things from a distance at first. If you're going to take her into a store, put her in the cart and don't let people fawn all over her. The second she starts to show stress, leave. You haven't had time to establish a relationship with her yet and basically went from zero to advanced, completely bypassing all the remedial steps in between.

Someone else mentioned "flooding", and basically that's what this experience was. It's not a technique I'm fond of in general, with puppies or adult dogs. Some pups might be absolutely fine with it - Halo was an extremely confident puppy and I did throw as many new experiences at her as I could because she was clearly showing me she was up for a challenge and wasn't bothered by it. She came home at 10 weeks old and everywhere she went it was like she owned the joint. But I wouldn't expect every puppy to have that level of cocky confidence and I'd rather let the dog show me what s/he is comfortable with and work from there. "Should" isn't part of the equation for me. Also, what I'd expect from a 3 or 4 or 5 month old puppy is different than what I'd expect from an 8 week old puppy who has only known me for two days.

 

Not sure why you seem to be confusing her amazing environmental sureness with her reluctance as a new and tiny baby dog toward a huge strange adult man rushing around. I would think something was wrong with a GSD puppy if that did not concern them. She is not a Lab or a Golden. Breed matters, it's called the genetics of behavior. Poppies are not blank alates.

 

Because I have been following the Fraserglen/Carmspack Max and Valor and thought that was what a solid genetic representation of the breed was supposed to present like. Those dogs don't seem to be frightened of much of anything.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I really thought those were the characteristics I'm supposed to be looking for.
Honestly, I would be thrilled to hear it's all ok with her. I adore the little crate demon !
I think part of it is also that my last dog genuinely was byb poorly bred and very fear reactive and as much as I loved him it was not an experience I ever care to repeat. So perhaps reading too much into this.

 

Have you read why David Winners chose that litter?

 

I know he always says he likes a "challenge" .
To be honest after the last 11yrs I just wasn't up to difficult again.
My last guy was very fear aggressive and needed tons of management.
I wanted a pup who could grow up to be calmly confident but not constantly challenging and pushy.
A thinker with situational discernment but who if there was ever a real threat would step up.
A companion and partner in anything we do. I wasn't looking for a sport dog.
Just a smart cookie who was loving and had confidence but didn't need to make a show of it.

 

Not up to difficult? Your pup's pedigree screams difficult.

I wouldn't have looked at that litter for sport either.

 

Not up to difficult? Your pup's pedigree screams difficult.

I wouldn't have looked at that litter for sport either.

I was very clear and detailed with Christina and she felt this pup was a match.
Difficult in what way do you see in the pedigree ?
My idea of difficult may not be the same.

 

And I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I just genuinely got worried that it may turn into a situation of dealing with reactivity like I lived through with Egan.
Really I was and am proud of how well my little girl is doing overall.

 

Both sides of your dog's pedigree are loaded with dogs that produce strong real work dogs. Decoys respected Zako Max. Not saying he couldn't and did not produce pups that were what you wanted, just saying why would you expect it from a dog like him? Lots of serious dogs in that pedigree. Zako was used in LE programs as were other dogs close up.

 

But when these dogs are well bred and balanced and have situational discernment, I assume that means a dog who does not "go off" in an over reactive way.
I spent the last 11 yrs managing a dog who did have a hairpin trigger and in situations that a normal dog would have been on alert about, he reacted aggressively as if his life was in imminent danger. He was the worst combo of high drive and weak nerves. A byb genetic mess. He was difficult. It was exhausting and took alot of work but his last years were pretty stable and good.
As far as I understand ...a dog being civil does not mean fear reactive or that they over react and go off when they should not ? It just means they have the balls to step up to the plate in the face of a real threat.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding ?

 

Perhaps next time you could try waiting outside for awhile giving Jamie the opportunity to observe all the foot traffic and see that we are not a threat. It's my understanding that puppies that are handled early/often by humans are more social.

 

I am not sure that I understand your question. Are you comparing LE prospects to calm, biddable pets of a more moderate drive?

 

A civil dog is one that will bite for real. A sharp dog is one that is quick to bite. A sharp dog can be very forward, social aggressive, a very territorial dog, a defensive dog with low thresholds, or a fear biter. It’s not about the motivation to bite necessarily, but how quick they are to bite. A lot of lines I’ve seen that produce sharp digs can also produce nervy dogs. A dog doesn’t need to be sharp to be civil.

 

Thank you. Great explanation. I can handle civil but I had made it clear to Christina that I didn't want "sharp".

 

My first girl was calm, confident and a great family dog who would have ripped anyone's throat out for real if they tried to hurt me. And not out of fear reactivity but she had the stuff. That said she would have totally washed out of LE. Not drivey enough just day to day. I'm exhausted and perhaps not phrasing well. But maybe it's not always one extreme or the other ? I have to believe Christina saw what I was looking for (a girl much like my first one) in this pup.

 

As per bearshandlers explanation... My first girl wasn't sharp. Very discerning, not over reactive... but if she ever did bite ..it would be warranted and for real. Worst she did was a very serious full teeth bared snarl one night telling some creepy dude to leave me alone. She didn't make a big show of it but she was dead serious and that was his one warning and he bugged off ! I can't explain it but the tone in her snarl wasn't fear or reactivity she was quite serious.
That was exactly what I was trying to say. That I don't think civil has to mean sharp.

 

Maybe she was just unsure on that particular day,

It's strange when you go from a reactive dog to one that's not it's hard to relax sometimes you see things that just aren't there and that if you had never had a dog with temperament problems you probably wouldn't be so sensitive to some behaviours that your current pup is showing,
so maybe try and relax a bit move on from what happened and start anew.

And I know it's hard but try not to compare your pup to other's everyone is an individual with their own personality...

 

I could be wrong since I’m not going out and evaluating hundreds of puppies, but the characteristics of sharp and civil aren’t easy to see at 8 weeks. You can infer how they will be based on the pedigree, but I don’t think you can tell from puppy to puppy at that age. I think you can look for confident, outgoing puppies and reduce the chances of them being sharp since you could reasonably expect them to not have some of the motivations of some sharp dogs(fear aggression.)

 

This isn't the reaction I expect to see in a dog I like. I like forward dogs, so the reaction I would like to see to the fast walking guy would be observation or the pup moving forward and barking.

We were on vacation in Myrtle Beach. We took the dogs to the boardwalk. First time Valor was around a crowd like that. He was excited and a little rammy on the leash but I expected that. He suddenly reacted to a guy that had huge flowers behind his ears. He was also drunk and yelling in a fun way. Full beard. Big guy. Valor was barking at the end of the leash. Full warning bark. Frustrated and trying to move forward to the guy. Flower guy was really nice and sat down on his chair while we worked it out. It took about 30 seconds for Valor to calm down. He checked him out from all sides before deciding he wasn't a threat. He then moved in and made friends. Granted, Valor was 16 weeks at this time.

I would contact the breeder and see what she says.

 

Send the breeder some video of her insecurity. I agree with David in that you should not see the behavior you described in a pup with good temperament regardless how little time you have had her. Better to get a replacement now before getting too attached. Nerve issues are the hardest to fix if at all fixable.

 

I would call the breeder as well. I would hope to see more confidence around people in that scenario personally. I did notice in the video of the litter posted, she appeared unsure of the cone when it was thrown around and then avoided it, although members with more experience may view it differently. You have a lot of great advice on here I guess it comes down to what the breeder says and what you feel you are comfortable with. Sorry you’re having to go through this.

 

I'm not real bright, and I've worked with far more bad dogs then good. So take my opinion for what it's worth.
I don't like flooding pups, I take them out but I carry them a lot and try to ease them into things. What you described would not bother me. Because so far she has been stable with everything else. And I'm not sure her reaction was wrong. You are emotional and overwrought, and I think you may be over reacting. She had a bad day, move on.
I don't agree with isolating her in another room in her crate. I often crate pups, since I use the crates to help with house training but I keep them near and especially at night. She slept on the couch with you, so why not in bed with you.
Call the breeder by all means but first relax.

 

Here is an article about socialization, and there is a bit about a very fearful pup.

More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies — The Collared Scholar

She stood atop of the massive metal bleachers, her puppy triumphantly standing on one of the rows, as she called down to me. “Aren’t you going

www.collared-scholar.com

The behavior would concern me in a pup from a reputable breeder. It would definitely make me consider returning the puppy.

Talk to your breeder and even look into an experienced trainer who can assess your pup and help you work through this.

 

Keeping a pup that young at home during the first week is enough socialization to handle for her since everything is new. I would not be initially worried because she was thrown in the deep end as sensitive pup.
OP, please do not be offended or feel guilty. How is your relationship with the breeder? Do you have a contract? Have you observed the litter before you took your pup home? What has the breeder d done in working with the pups ?
I would give the breeder a heads-up and tell her that you are going to keep an open mind about keeping the pup but will work on it for two weeks and then decide. I would be worried when she would be afraid of a person showing up in your home and not recover from it. Difficult in Covid times but that would be my true test. Sure there are strong pups who can handle everything at this age but they may not be the easiest as an average pet dog. Your puppy hasn't had the time to know that she could always rely on you, which would have made it easier to handle HD. So that's done now and I would work on that and yes, take baby steps to increase her confidence. Lots of play at home, puppy training and gentle outings. Let her see people from a distance. You can take her back to HD but stay in your car with her, let her see it from a safe spot for a few minutes. Then walk her in the parking lot away from noisy car doors, people loading big stuff etc, for only a new minutes (do not go inside!) and go home, feed her, potty her and then crate time to digest the experience.
Realize that if she remains fearful you will have a fearful adult GSD next year, which won't be easy for the next 13 or so years.

 

On the night crate whining issue I have always done it backwards from what most say whether good or bad. Rather than bring the pup and crate into my room, I bring myself to sleep by the crate in the pups room. First night we sleep in front of the crate with the door open and something from their 'previous home' inside, work slowly night by night, to getting to door closed and slowly moving further from the crate until I finally can sleep in my own bed again.

 

One more thing, Valor and Max had each other, and an adult dog, and a really experienced and confident handler.
I love the way David handles things, but I am not so certain that the average dog owner has his ability and expertise. I know I don't.
Stop beating yourself up.

 

One more thing, Valor and Max had each other,

Max left a couple of weeks before Valor.
Valor joined him at Sapphire’s later. They only “had each other” for a few hours.
I am looking at the obvious reason why a puppy may be fearful of people. OP knows, too, and no amount of “maybe it’s this or maybe it’s that” will explain away genetics.
I respectfully submit that OP is in over her head with this Czech line who is showing fear, and she would be in over her head with a Carmspack pup, as well.