Hey everyone. I’m sure these sable puppy questions are a dime a dozen but I am stumped. I have, what I thought was a blanketed B&T female. I have a bi-color male. I watched them tie, I plan in advance every heat. I’m not a backyard breeder. My female had two sable pups. No doubt about it. How? I posted some questions in a color genetics page and they are pushing that another dog had to sire the litter. I know what I witnessed. Two ties from my male. My neighbor does have a male dog who could have came over in the night I guess. He’s a black pitbull mix. Also not sable. Anyway, a few of the comments said maybe my female is sable expressing blanket Black and Tan. They say that’s much more likely than my two have sables. She does have a unique pattern. For example the black in her goes all the way down to mid leg, the whole top part of her tail, her stomach is black. She had tan around the base of her ear, on her face her feet, underside of her tail and then salt and peppered all over her back, not a bitches stripe just random everywhere. I’ll post pics but they don’t really show. Have you ever heard of this sable expressing Black and Tan? Or sable pups being born from no sable parent? Even if some how there are two parents to this litter sable works the same way with other breeds, my neighbors dog is black. And my male has successfully had pups from one tie dozens of times as a stud, he’s definitely sired the litter.

These are the parents. You can tell better here than mom has tan sprinkled in randomly on her back especially by her rear quarters.

 

that looks like a bitch stripe, which is a poorly expressed saddle on blanket backs. It's not an indication of the dog being a sable.

 

Did you DNA the parents? Embark will tell you the colors they carry. If those are in fact the parents, the dad is probably dominant black, not recessive black from the A allele.

 

This. Genetics isn't an eyeball operation.

 

Have everyone DNA tested for parentage....and the parents for color. Should not happen, but Bearshandler's post may be something to look into

Lee

 

I would embark the parents. Can you list the pedigree?

And this is why I will ask for the genetics on color anytime a black is involved now. There is no stopping this dominant black from taking over.

You only have a couple options.
1. The sire is not the sire
2. the sire is dominant black which is a masking gene, not a genetic color, and the genetic color of the dog is sable
3. Your female is a patterned sable (which it does not look like but hey...you can hope for the best)

 

crash course on sable German shepherds and how they happen:

The Sable German Shepherd (Explained) - German Shepherd Dog HQ

The sable German Shepherd is a GSD with a distinctive coloring because their hair strands are black at the tips and light at the base.

germanshepherddoghq.com

 

Believe me I know! But there are ways where they can be sable expressing B&T, sable expressing black, and a few other cases

 

In a foster mutt litter I had three pups that looked like your "sable" pups. But only until they were weaned. All three turned out brown as in a Malinois' coat. No sable to detect. The mother (picture before I got her out of the shelter) looked a light sable. Sadly I couldn't rescue the sire. The mother was scheduled to be euthanized a few days later. Pup pictured at around 7 weeks.

 

Well sable pups in gsdwill be sable at birth, then very light colored for close to a year and then darken with adult coat. What did the “sable pups you have look like as adults”.

 

I'm still confused that you referred to your male as a bi color.
Pedigrees on your dogs may provide insight.

 

I have the pedigree for the dad on pedigree database easily accessible but the moms doesn’t have any pictures her pedigree is just on paper but the dads has pics with his this is his dads Cita Ben-Ju

My sires mom isn’t on pedigree database with pics either

 

Thanks everyone, you can’t tell but my male has about 2 inches of tan on his legs and between his toes. From my understanding that makes him bicolor. I have yet to embark but I did get a wisdom panel back years ago and there is no color details for it. Everyone tells me there is but maybe they didn’t have that option almost 3 years ago? There isn’t so I guess I’ll have to re do it. Here is another pic of the moms legs with some pretty cool shading. Also dad may be masking he had almost everyone in his family line either black or sable. Also I can embark pups but should I only do the sables or just a couple random?

 

I had a Sadle GSD Dutch shepherd cross that was sable... half the pups ended up looking like malnois so.....?

 

if a dog has the sable gene then they express sable. That is the only option with German Shepherds. That is a dominant color in this breed. A puppy can only be sable if one of the parents is sable. You need to test the parents.

 

That’s actually not true

 

Idk why that link went to Cita Ben Ju. I copy and past Jamal z Eurosportu. And not that it’s relevant to this post but no Mark didn’t, I got a littermates owner to help me get the paperwork. How is the registration relevant? Lol

 

What I’m talking about is a patterned sable when I say they aren’t expressing sable. The pattern expression masks it

 

There are easier to read charts but this is the first one that I found that explains color genetics.
German Shepherd Color Genetics the color genetics of the German Shepherd%2C,the standard and recognized colors by the SV.

 

There are easier to read charts but this is the first one that I found that explains color genetics.
German Shepherd Color Genetics the color genetics of the German Shepherd%2C,the standard and recognized colors by the SV.

Thank you!

 

 

i’m actually surprised you’ve gotten so much participation in this thread…. you are asking for a lot without producing much.

no, your female does not appear to be a patterned sable. her breeder could tell you, her pedigree could tell you, a dna test could tell you, her color as a baby puppy could tell you….all more reliably than people on the internet looking at a couple of poorly lit and bad angled photos. but you don’t have any of this info? random tan or banded hairs sprinkled throughout a black and tan dog is not uncommon in the breed at all - nearly every black and tan dog has this to some degree.

your male does not appear to be bi color. he could be, but more likely is that he is black, with some bleed thru. again, not uncommon in the breed. dominant black masking sable? a black sable? looks similar in coat and build to some recent black showlines…. some with questionable pigment as well.

at the end of the day, regardless of color, you have two very very dark dogs and the sable (fawn?) puppies you produced appear to be incredibly washed out… the puppy on the right even appears blue or isabella in that lighting - and that’s a whole other can of worms.

 

 

"My neighbor does have a male dog who could have came over in the night I guess" This seems the biggest 'if', leaving your female in heat unsupervised. Never knew a breeder doing this.

 

The biggest if is that you left your female in heat unsupervised. Never knew a breeder doing this.

Right. It's even possible there are two sires in that litter. We all know it's impossible for these two GSD's to produce sables. So now the parents have to be DNA tested thru the AKC and the puppies need to be DNA tested thru the AKC to prove parentage. That's pretty pricey. Or the OP needs to write the litter off as mixed breeds because parentage is unknown.

 

I can think of something else that is agouti, canid, and plentiful in rural areas.

 

Wonder what Embark has to say about that.

 

I really just came here for opinions I wasn’t expecting anyone here to solve a mystery or riddle. I just wanted to have a discussion involving GSD’s in a GSD forum and most of you are just condescending and trying to assert dominance on someone who knows less than you. I 100% do not leave my female unsupervised the STAY INSIDE UNLESS I AM OUT WORKING ON MY FARM! I did say the male could have came over during the night because I don’t monitor any of my boundary cameras at night, if something crosses our boundary line at night I don’t wake up out of my sleep to notice. He could have come inside my property line, hung out until the morning when I let my dogs out and mated with her during the spare 10-20 mins they are out of my sight wondering around. I never said it was likely and I most definitely do not think he’s the sire. He isn’t even sable so the “has to be sable sire” is 100% not true. My pups might be “washed” out. How rude and disgusting to say about someone pups you don’t know. My dogs have excellent pedigree. I dna tested them years ago and never had a reason to test for the genes they carry based on color because I don’t breed for profit, I have one litter a year naturally and donate some of my pups to the VFW and rehome others. I love it and enjoy it. I’ve got my dogs OFA paperwork and now I’ll be getting an Embark. My male is had brown on his feet, maybe he isn’t bi-color but that was my understanding and fine maybe my female isn’t patterned sable but if that’s the case she’s had sable pups from a black or bi color sire. NEITHER ARE SABLE. I appreciate the two of you who weren’t condescending and immature. The others…. Chill out.

 

I really just came here for opinions I wasn’t expecting anyone here to solve a mystery or riddle. I just wanted to have a discussion involving GSD’s in a GSD forum and most of you are just condescending and trying to assert dominance on someone who knows less than you. I 100% do not leave my female unsupervised the STAY INSIDE UNLESS I AM OUT WORKING ON MY FARM! I did say the male could have came over during the night because I don’t monitor any of my boundary cameras at night, if something crosses our boundary line at night I don’t wake up out of my sleep to notice. He could have come inside my property line, hung out until the morning when I let my dogs out and mated with her during the spare 10-20 mins they are out of my sight wondering around. I never said it was likely and I most definitely do not think he’s the sire. He isn’t even sable so the “has to be sable sire” is 100% not true. My pups might be “washed” out. How rude and disgusting to say about someone pups you don’t know. My dogs have excellent pedigree. I dna tested them years ago and never had a reason to test for the genes they carry based on color because I don’t breed for profit, I have one litter a year naturally and donate some of my pups to the VFW and rehome others. I love it and enjoy it. I’ve got my dogs OFA paperwork and now I’ll be getting an Embark. My male is had brown on his feet, maybe he isn’t bi-color but that was my understanding and fine maybe my female isn’t patterned sable but if that’s the case she’s had sable pups from a black or bi color sire. NEITHER ARE SABLE. I appreciate the two of you who weren’t condescending and immature. The others…. Chill TF out

I would just test the dogs, and the pups. Problem solved, question answered. Also if you would actually post your dogs names or pedigrees someone may be able to shed some light, since the dominant black came through a specific line I believe. It sort of confuses me when people want answers put won't give the info needed to answer.
Patterned sables are born sable and the pattern develops later as I understand it. Not sure how old your girl was when you got her.
Black dogs can have "bleed through" but still be genetically black. My black female had funky, brown "lightening bolts" on her legs.
The dominant black is a masking gene, like white, as I understand it. That could make your male genetically sable.

 

do you know what washed out means? in the context of color…..which is what this thread is about.

 

German shepherds as a breed are all agouti permissive, so the color is always determined by the a allele. The Dominant black from the K allele was introduced from another breed. If your dog has that, then it is possible he also carries sable. What’s not pictured above is brindle. Brindle is found on the K allele. It is reccessive to K allele black and dominant to a allele permissive. A brindle mix can very well carry sable and not show it. A pattern sable is still sable. The difference is they have a creeping tan gene that saddle backs have. In place of the saddle, you will see sable patterning. It is fairly obvious as a puppy.

 

Black dogs can have color bleed through. This is the dam to one of my dogs, Jara. She is black notice the bleed through on her legs.

Jara Von Der Sigisliebe

Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Jara Von Der Sigisliebe

www.pedigreedatabase.com

It’s hard to show in photos, but you can see similar light spots on black and tans. It’s just not as noticeable.

 

Black dogs can have color bleed through. This is the dam to one of my dogs, Jara. She is black notice the bleed through on her legs.

Jara Von Der Sigisliebe

Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Jara Von Der Sigisliebe

www.pedigreedatabase.com

It’s hard to show in photos, but you can see similar light spots on black and tans. It’s just not as noticeable.

Jara now resides in Trail, British Columbia. There definitely is a bit of brown on he back of the front legs. At certain angles in the sun she has a reddish tinge. She is a beautiful black GSD and has the best personality.

 

I don’t understand this thread, some of the most knowledgeable people on this forum are giving real answers and proofing it, what’s the end game for OP what are you looking to have answered?

 

Sounds like the OP has all the answers and just wants validation. Okay with me. We just wasted our time and insights

 

Jara came to me in November 2021 through a friend who brought her up from California. She is enjoying retirement; walking on the bush trails and hanging out. She is a confident female and ignores other dogs on our walks. No leash required for walks; she has made me her human and she wants to be wherever I am.

It would be fantastic if I could find another GSD with her temperament in the future....definitely quality breeding lines came through for her.

If you know of any video of Jara in IPO competitions, I would love to see it.

You are very fortunate to have one of her offspring.

 

Here are some training videos of her.